A few questions (traction control, Stabilitrak, side airbags, etc.)

[Wraith]

I'm likely going to go look at a new (2007) Vibe tomorrow. I've got a few questions.- In short, what's the difference between Stabilitrak and traction control? And does the Vibe have/offer traction control? (I know Stabilitrak is an option.) My current car has traction control and ABS. It does decently in snow, with traction control kicking in occasionally. I'd think traction control is something I'd like to have in a new vehicle.- Why do so few Vibes come equipped with the side airbag and/or Stabilitrak options? When looking at available Vibes on the Pontiac website, there are lots with sun & sound, but few with side airbags or Stabilitrak, features I'd rather have, personally.- This is more of a general car buying question... When I checked out the new Rabbit, at a VW/import dealer, they had another paper on the window next to the MSRP sticker, basically adding $500 to the MSRP for three things: a.) detailed inspection, b.) full tank of gas, c.) wash & wax. Is this just a way to con an extra $500 out of buyers, or do other dealerships also follow this practice?So far, I've test driven the Rabbit and Malibu Maxx, and sat in a Versa. Aveo just seemed way too cheap. Wanted to check out the Vibe too, just hadn't found any at nearby dealers until now.

[mcgusto82]

The ABS option includes traction control. (i'm 95% sure) I also think that the ABS is a package that also includes the side bags. stabilatrack is a system that monitors wheel speed and direction and will make break/power adjustsments as you drive.Traction control monitors wheel speed difference between front wheels and rear. if the rears are moving slower than the front, breaks will be aplied. the car recognizes that you have broken traction. but only during take offs. or at the best, during slow sppeds, like below 15 mph.and 500$ for a full tank of gas, wash, and inspection on a new car??? yeah, CON!. i have never bought a new car that did' come with a wash, and tank of gas free. and inspection??? IT'S A NEW CAR!! none needed. If anything it's a premium that the new rabbit demands. as it's excluded form all of VW's new vehicle promotions.Good hunting.

[NaNC3]

ABS does not include traction control. Traction control is not available on Vibe. ABS can be bought by itself, or bundled with OnStar in what they call the security package. Side air bags are not included in this package. They can be ordered separately.Stabilitrac is very hard to find, and ABS and side air bags are rare in many areas as well. You will almost certainly need to order your Vibe to get stabilitrac. If you decide that you like the Vibe and don't absolutely have to have stabilitrac, there should be some 2006 models available. I don't think there are any changes other than one new color and some pricing modifications.good luck.

[2006_Salsa]

When we were Vibe shopping we had a hard time finding ABS & Side Air Bags together, ended up finding one about 100 miles from our dealer.His suggestion as to why these options are hard to find together is most dealers try to keep the Vibe MSRP at or below 20K .

[Wraith]

Quote, originally posted by mcgusto82 »If anything it's a premium that the new rabbit demands. as it's excluded form all of VW's new vehicle promotions.They did appear to have the same sticker on other vehicles in the lot. At least on the Jetta, Golf, GTI. I didn't really bother looking at the other cars on the lot, as I don't think there was anything else in my price range (there were Mercedes, Porsche, Caddies, higher end VWs).Quote, originally posted by mcgusto82 »stabilatrack is a system that monitors wheel speed and direction and will make break/power adjustsments as you drive.Traction control monitors wheel speed difference between front wheels and rear. if the rears are moving slower than the front, breaks will be aplied. the car recognizes that you have broken traction. but only during take offs. or at the best, during slow sppeds, like below 15 mph.So basically Stabilitrak tries to prevents skidding/sliding, and traction control helps prevent the tires from spinning during acceleration? Both of which would be good for winter driving.

[GMJAP]

Stabilitrak is traction control. It is basically an intelligent traction control that will do you much better in winter driving conditions than just basic traction control.Stabilitrak regulates the brakes to keep the vehicle moving along the driver's "intended path".Traction control simply regulates the brakes to try to keep the wheels from spinning. However, just because the wheels aren't spinning doesn't mean the vehicle isn't skidding off in an unintended direction.

[mcgusto82]

Quote, originally posted by NaNC3 »ABS does not include traction control. Traction control is not available on Vibe. ABS can be bought by itself, or bundled with OnStar in what they call the security package. Side air bags are not included in this package. They can be ordered separately.Stabilitrac is very hard to find, and ABS and side air bags are rare in many areas as well. You will almost certainly need to order your Vibe to get stabilitrac. If you decide that you like the Vibe and don't absolutely have to have stabilitrac, there should be some 2006 models available. I don't think there are any changes other than one new color and some pricing modifications.good luck.i guess i was wrong. i could've sworn when i was shopping for the vibe, to get side bags i had to have the ABS. i think it was called "safe and sound" package.

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »Stabilitrak is traction control. It is basically an intelligent traction control that will do you much better in winter driving conditions than just basic traction control.Stabilitrak regulates the brakes to keep the vehicle moving along the driver's "intended path".Traction control simply regulates the brakes to try to keep the wheels from spinning. However, just because the wheels aren't spinning doesn't mean the vehicle isn't skidding off in an unintended direction.StabiliTrac is not Traction Control. I have them both on my Vibe. StabilTrac applies the brake to certain wheels to keep the car going in a straight path in the case of a skid. Traction Control prevents wheel spin by applying the brake to certain wheels plus throttle back the engine. There is a button to turn off Traction Control. StabilTrac cannot be turned off. They both perform a different function and operate independently.The confusion is the way GM markets StabilTrac. GM makes no mention of Traction Control but believe me when you order StabiliTrac, Traction Control comes with it. Toyota does a better job of explaining this with the Matrix. In the Toyota world StabilTrac is called Vehicle Skid Control (VSC). They clearly tell you that traction Control is included with VSC.

[jake75]

So - you are saying that Stabiltrax includes traction control.

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »So - you are saying that Stabiltrax includes traction control. Yes it does.I have been using StabilTrac for years now on my Lexus (actually called VSC on Toyota products) and will never own another car without it. I had to have it on the Vibe and did a lot of searching to get it.

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by mikey00 »The confusion is the way GM markets StabilTrac. GM makes no mention of Traction Control but believe me when you order StabiliTrac, Traction Control comes with it.You've just made my point. You can't have Stabilitrak on a vehicle without having Traction Control. It is NOT a separate system. It just has more features than basic Traction Control, and allows you to turn off certain features because you may not want them operating (ie, you don't want it stopping wheel spin when you're trying to get out of mud.)You are also right that the confusion comes from the way companies market it. They tell you you're getting Stabilitrak and Traction Control so it sounds like you're getting two systems - more stuff - instead of just Traction Control 2.0.But the truth is, there is no such thing as a car with Stabilitrak but without Traction Control. Conversely, there are many vehicles with Traction Control but without Stabilitrak.Stabilitrak is an intelligent feature of the Traction Control system.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »Conversely, there are many vehicles with Traction Control but without Stabilitrak.As is the case with my G6. Could've used stabilitrack today...

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »You've just made my point. You can't have Stabilitrak on a vehicle without having Traction Control. It is NOT a separate system. It just has more features than basic Traction Control, and allows you to turn off certain features because you may not want them operating (ie, you don't want it stopping wheel spin when you're trying to get out of mud.)You are also right that the confusion comes from the way companies market it. They tell you you're getting Stabilitrak and Traction Control so it sounds like you're getting two systems - more stuff - instead of just Traction Control 2.0.But the truth is, there is no such thing as a car with Stabilitrak but without Traction Control. Conversely, there are many vehicles with Traction Control but without Stabilitrak.Stabilitrak is an intelligent feature of the Traction Control system.Not so. There are many cars with StabiliTrac without traction control. My RX is one of them. There are also many cars with traction control without StabilTrac. I have a 2000 Olds Alero that is one of them. They are 2 systems that work independently. On many cars they can be ordered independently. This is not the case on the Vibe. However, it's not GMs fault, this is the way Toyota decided to bundle the options on the Matrix which carries over to the Vibe.

[ToolGuy]

When I got my new 2007 Jeep Compass last monday it did not come with a full tank for fuel. Any way to cut costs these days! Plus to have Roadside Assistance now you must pay for it. All you get it towing...

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by mikey00 »There are also many cars with traction control without StabilTrac. Obviously, you're not bothering to read my posts. It would help the discussion if you actually read them.Finally, once again, there are not any GM vehicles with StabiliTrak but without Traction Control.See the following article, from which I have posted a section:"Remaining GM SUVs and vans will have StabiliTrak standard by the end of 2007. By the end of 2010, it will be standard on all GM cars and trucks sold to retail customers. As enablers of electronic stability control, antilock brakes and traction control will become standard as well."http://www.roadandtravel.com/o...k.htmThere are no GM vehicles with Stabilitrak but without Traction Control, or ABS for that matter. I challenge you to post a link a to a "build your own" GM vehicle site OR vehicle specification list OR article or review that shows StabiliTrak availabel for a vehicle but explicitly notes that Traction Control is not available.There is absolutely no proof to your assertions.

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »Obviously, you're not bothering to read my posts. It would help the discussion if you actually read them.Finally, once again, there are not any GM vehicles with StabiliTrak but without Traction Control.See the following article, from which I have posted a section:"Remaining GM SUVs and vans will have StabiliTrak standard by the end of 2007. By the end of 2010, it will be standard on all GM cars and trucks sold to retail customers. As enablers of electronic stability control, antilock brakes and traction control will become standard as well."http://www.roadandtravel.com/o...k.htmThere are no GM vehicles with Stabilitrak but without Traction Control, or ABS for that matter. I challenge you to post a link a to a "build your own" GM vehicle site OR vehicle specification list OR article or review that shows StabiliTrak availabel for a vehicle but explicitly notes that Traction Control is not available.There is absolutely no proof to your assertions.I think the problem may be you are not reading your own posts. In the quote above you say "Finally, once again, there are not any GM vehicles with StabiliTrak but without Traction Control."When one states "Finally, once again" it indicates the statement has been made previously. Look over your previous posts and see if you can find where you stated that. Now that you have added "GM" to your statement I tend to agree. I didn't go to all the GM sites and try to configure a car with StabiliTrak without Traction Control but I do believe you on that one. But that's a marketing decision, the way options are bundled. What you initially stated was "But the truth is, there is no such thing as a car with Stabilitrak but without Traction Control." That is not so, my RX300 is a prime example and it is made by Toyota, same as the Vibe is.I still disagree with your statement "StabiliTrak is Traction Control". It is not, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on the words. They are 2 independently operating systems. You can have one without the other. You can turn off Traction Control and StabiliTrak still works. If you get Traction Control without StabilTrak it still works (G6, olds alero, etc.) But I guess you already know that from your mention of getting Traction Control without StabiliTrak.

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by mikey00 » Now that you have added "GM" to your statement I tend to agree. StabiliTrak is an exclusive GM trademark. Saying "GM Stabilitrak" is a redundent statement. Talking about "StabiliTrak" inherently references GM's stability control implementation and no-one else's.Like "iPod" refers to an Apple product, though there are many portable music players.Quote »That is not so, my RX300 is a prime example and it is made by Toyota, same as the Vibe is.According to Edmund's, your Lexus RX300 has Traction Control as well as Stability Control as standard features. (And ABS too for that matter.) I don't know the exact year of your RX300, but I'd be willing to bet a whole lot it says the same thing or includes neither. Care to take me up on it? http://www.edmunds.com/used/20....htmlYou're confuse because of how they are marketed and the fact that the Traction control (wheel spin) can be turned off. Doesn't mean they are seperate systems; they are just different features of one system, which always includes traction control.On a technical note, you are correct that my statement "StabiliTrak is Traction Control" doesn't properly differenitate the two features. It was intended to convey the message that StabiliTrak means the vehicle has Traction Control.

[Wraith]

Thanks for all the answers. So the consensus seems to be - if you get Stabilitrak on a Vibe, it includes regular traction control as well.I did check out the 07 Vibe on Saturday. The salesman didn't really know whether "traction control" was available on the Vibe or not. Beyond that, some general impressions:I liked the driving position of the Vibe. I was surprised to be at about the same level as minivan drivers. The thing really looks like it's made for hauling stuff, moreso than other 5-door hatchbacks. Seats seemed quite firm, in a good way. This model had the sunroof, but headroom was still fine. Getting into the Vibe is a lot less of a drop than into a regular car. Tight turning radius. Outside temp gauge. A few less positive observations: When I shut the driver's door, it didn't feel real solid. I could push on the inside of the door, by the handle, and it squeezed in noticeably. Starting the engine, it sounded pretty loud, but might have dropped a little after it warmed up. A couple times during acceleration, I could hear a sound like water sloshing around (and I found a couple threads about this). Bumps in the road were fairly noticeable.And there aren't really any incentives on 07's yet, though I suppose that's to be expected. Still $1000 cash available for 06 models. The dealership did quote me a pretty good trade-in price, compared to KBB's numbers.I searched on the pontiac website and did find one 2006 Base Auto w/ SAB & Stabilitrak. Though it also had sun & sound and a bunch of other options (some of which I'd want, some not), which bumped it over $22k.

[mikey00]

Lets see, "Talking about "StabiliTrak" inherently references GM's stability control implementation and no-one else's." You do realize your Vibe has Toyota Vehicle Skid Control (VSC) not actually StabilTrak.Also my RX is a 2001 with VSC and no traction control. I previously had a 2000 with traction control without VSC. VSC was not introduced until 01 on the RX. Don't believe everything you read on Edmunds.

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by mikey00 »Lets see, "Talking about "StabiliTrak" inherently references GM's stability control implementation and no-one else's." You do realize your Vibe has Toyota Vehicle Skid Control (VSC) not actually StabilTrak.What's your point? A discussion on StabiliTrak references GM vehicles only. This is my point. You are correct, though, that my statement was technically in error about the VSC on the Vibe. But that doesn't change my point.Quote, originally posted by mikey00 »Also my RX is a 2001 with VSC and no traction control. I previously had a 2000 with traction control without VSC. VSC was not introduced until 01 on the RX. Don't believe everything you read on Edmunds.Here's a cars.com link to a 2001 RX300 also showing it has "Electronic Traction Control Via ABS & Engine Management, Stability Control, " as standard equipment.http://www.cars.com/go/search/...ional(click 'show additional features...')And I'm willing to bet your owner's manual and other information sources will bear out Edmunds & cars.com.Why don't you actually post a reference? I have. More than 1.It appears you're being stubborn just to save face, and not to educate anyone on the nature of stability and traction control systems.

[mikey00]

I have no reference to post. My info comes from actually owning the car, not from reading online references as yours does. I first owned a 2000RX with traction control and no VSC and my current 01 RX has VSC without traction control. I did not go to the Edmunds reference you posted but I have no reason to doubt you, thus my comment "don't believe everything you read on Edmunds". As far as saving face goes, my main point was StabilTrak is not traction control. I think we agree on that now. Just in case you are interested here is how the 2 systems are defined at chevrolet.com:"Traction Control helps reduce wheel spin under acceleration if surfaces you’re driving on are slippery. Most traction control systems combine the ABS speed sensors with brakes and a Powertrain Control Module to help you regain traction.""The StabiliTrak system works by detecting the difference between the steering wheel angle and the direction the vehicle is actually turning by "reading" the steering wheel position, the amount of sideways force in play, vehicle speed and the vehicle's response to steering wheel input. The system then uses the brakes to help the driver keep it on course."

[Kari]

Alright guys...lets not escalate into personal attacks please...

[GMJAP]

From an article on the Society of Automotive Engineers website:"The fundamental principle of various production vehicle stability systems, such as Bosch's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control), Cadillac/Delphi's StabiliTrak, Toyota's VSC (Vehicle Stability Control), and now Honda's VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist), can be explained by Shibahata's method. All these systems add side-slip control to ABS/traction control systems. They handle sudden changes in vehicle behavior, enabling the driver to control the situation. Honda's system is based on the concept of stabilization through control of the front wheels (in a front-wheel-drive car) without reducing the pleasure of driving. Rear wheel's travel allows increased cabin/luggage space. The VSA uses the ABS/TCS architecture to which a unique electronic control unit and an algorithm are added. Input sources include wheel-speed sensors, yaw-rate sensor, lateral acceleration sensor, steering angle sensor, engine speed sensor, and brake switch. The ECU has main- and sub-CPUs. The system applies an appropriate individual brake, and modulates the engine's torque output as required by the situation. "http://www.sae.org/automag/toptech/1298t07.htmThere is no such thing as stability control without traction control. If a car has stability control, it has traction control. They are different features of the same system.(You keep trying to tell me that cars come with traction control but not stability control. I've already said this myself in several posts. Stability control is a new feature in a new generation of traction control systems.)

[ColonelPanic]

Did I read somewhere that you can't disable the stability control with Toyota's system? You can only toggle the "traction control" part of it? That sounds strange, so basically you're stuck with an "artificial" driving experience as everything will always be done by computer. Of course, it is valuable technoloigy - it could help reduce single vehicle accidents by 30% according to NHTSA. But why never give the option to temporarily disable everything (except ABS of course) if needed or desired, like other manufacturers?

[northvibe]

CP that would require a switch, but you sold all those toyota switches so they ran out hahhah jk

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic »Did I read somewhere that you can't disable the stability control with Toyota's system? You can only toggle the "traction control" part of it? That sounds strange, so basically you're stuck with an "artificial" driving experience as everything will always be done by computer. Of course, it is valuable technoloigy - it could help reduce single vehicle accidents by 30% according to NHTSA. But why never give the option to temporarily disable everything (except ABS of course) if needed or desired, like other manufacturers? Yes, that's right. I have the Toyota system on my Vibe and there is no way to disable StabiliTrak but there is, however, a switch for traction control. My Lexus also has the Toyota system (minus the traction control part) and no way to disable it there either. I don't think you can disable StabilTrak on any of the GM's either but I have never owned one with StabiliTrak to confirm. Maybe someone else can confirm this.Being that it is a safety feature like ABS, the design intent was probably not to give the driver the option. Traction control is something I did have the need to turn off a few times. My Olds Alero which is not the greatest in the snow and ice would sometimes not want to get going in a very slick condition. I am also not using winter tires. Turing off traction control and spinning the tires a bit seemed to help things along.

[Johnny5]

What if you just looked into getting a good set of snow tires instead of all the systems. It would probably do you better in the snow with a set of skinnier tires that were specifically built for snow and/or a set just for the summer.It may be cheaper than buying the systems and like stated above it won't keep you from going off the road to begin with. Org go with a 2006 AWD system maybe which comes with all that stuff by default I believe.

[mikey00]

Quote, originally posted by Johnny5 »What if you just looked into getting a good set of snow tires instead of all the systems. It would probably do you better in the snow with a set of skinnier tires that were specifically built for snow and/or a set just for the summer.It may be cheaper than buying the systems and like stated above it won't keep you from going off the road to begin with. Org go with a 2006 AWD system maybe which comes with all that stuff by default I believe.When I bought the Vibe I really wanted AWD traction for snow but didn't want all the neagtives of AWD like reduced HP, smaller gas tank, StabiliTrak not available, higher initial cost and ongoing reduced gas mileage. So I found a Vibe with StabiliTrak, ABS and Traction Control and added 4 Michelin-Ice winter tires, which rated highest by Consumer reports. It proved to be a good winter combination but I do have the additional hassle of seasonal tire changes.

[NewNeptune]

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic »Did I read somewhere that you can't disable the stability control with Toyota's system? You can only toggle the "traction control" part of it? That sounds strange, so basically you're stuck with an "artificial" driving experience as everything will always be done by computer. Of course, it is valuable technoloigy - it could help reduce single vehicle accidents by 30% according to NHTSA. But why never give the option to temporarily disable everything (except ABS of course) if needed or desired, like other manufacturers? It would still be always done by computer, since the new ones have DBW. I would also imagine that it has some sort of torque management system, so that you don't shred your tranny flooring it, light after light (this has been proven to be installed on GM's trucks).

[infoblues]

A question to further this discussion: Now we know that StabiliTrak comes with Traction Control. And as I understand, it was introduced in model years 2005 or 2006. Now for model years 2003 and 2004, was there traction control available? The reason I am asking this is to see if there is a possibility to find a used 2003/04 Vibe with Traction Control. Currently, I am considering one such 2004 Vibe FWD which has ABS as well as Side Air Bags but am not sure if it has Traction Control. Any way to find that out? Called the dealer and he seemed to say a "yes" to any question I had regarding the features on the car. What should I look for when looking at the car to see if it has Traction Control? Thanks.

[ragingfish]

No. 2003 and 2004 MY's did not offer either feature. If you wanted traction control, your only option for those two years was AWD.

[infoblues]

Thanks ragingfish.. I figured so.. I was able to download those owner manuals.. and the 03 & 04 had no reference to Traction Control.. whereas 2005 did. Just to let you know, the deal has been sealed in the past few hours.. we got a certified 2004 frosty with 25k miles on it.. Thanks.