Sway bars... Which one?

[Mrizzle05]

Well im looking at sway bars... i seen that neverenoughauto.com has the hotchkis front and rear set for about $295Ptuning has a progress rear for $104Just wondering who has had the progress and is it worth the money? i really just want the rear for now.(heres the link to the progress)http://www.ptuning.com/html/It...=Vibe

[damronjr]

I would say most have the Progress. I had both, and have the Hotchkis now. No difference to me on either one, but others feel it makes a difference. Might as well save your money (or send it to me ) and go with the Progress!

[Mrizzle05]

yeah i figured. i dont wanna spend A WHOLE lot... cuz i gots lots of things to do... and little money to spend at a time.new stereoguagesfog light covers (mivibe-toolguys)tintSo on and so forth... but its lots of money and i can only spend so much.Im hoping i can get the extra Tc rim and sell them and get my sway bar and your bumper.

[damronjr]

To be honest with you, some may disagree, but I don't see how that RSB could do **** anyways b/c it is encased by another metal bar! i didn't feel any difference, but others will tell you otherwise. It's really up to you and you would probably have to try it to tell for yourself.

[Mrizzle05]

true... well theres other MORE important stuff so i think ima stick with getting my tint and stereo next... my old ones crapping out on me.maybe ill look into getting one down the road and seeing if I feel a differencethanks for the info.

[damronjr]

Good call!

[Never Enough]

Most people I've spoken with say the Progress RSB is the best $100 they've spent on their Vibe.

[Mrizzle05]

hey thanks... nice to see youve joined!I think ill get mine... but like above theres a list of things i need or would like first.

[harryyiii]

Don't forget the genvibe 5% discount at ptuning for the Progress bar. The Vibe understeers badly. Only a rear sway bar addresses this. A front sway bar adds to understeer.The vibe (excluding awd) has a torsion bar suspension. The twisting of the channel provides built in roll stiffnes. The stock sway bar bolted to the channel adds stiffness to the channel. The replacement bar adds more stiffness to the rear channel. Roll stiffness of the bar is proportional to the fourth power (doubling diameter increases roll stiffness of a bar by 16 times) The stiffness of the replacement bar is why the bolts have to be torqued to 150ft-lbs.

[Raven]

Quote, originally posted by harryyiii »Don't forget the genvibe 5% discount at ptuning for the Progress bar. The Vibe understeers badly. Only a rear sway bar addresses this. A front sway bar adds to understeer.The vibe (excluding awd) has a torsion bar suspension. The twisting of the channel provides built in roll stiffnes. The stock sway bar bolted to the channel adds stiffness to the channel. The replacement bar adds more stiffness to the rear channel. Roll stiffness of the bar is proportional to the fourth power (doubling diameter increases roll stiffness of a bar by 16 times) The stiffness of the replacement bar is why the bolts have to be torqued to 150ft-lbs. That's what I like to see, a knowledgable response. You remind me of MadBill, a old member who rarely shows up on GenVibe anymore. He's busy with a vintage corvette, beating the likes of Peter Klute of Dream Car Garage in the race at the Molson Indy in Toronto.

[ZubenElGenubi]

Quote, originally posted by harryyiii »The Vibe understeers badly. Only a rear sway bar addresses this. A front sway bar adds to understeer.I totally agree with your comments about the rear sway bar (and noticed significant improvement with the rear Progress bar). However, am I understanding you correctly to say that a front sway bar (i.e., a larger bar than stock) will make understeer worse?

[harryyiii]

Yes. biasing roll stiffness in the front increases bias towards understeer, as well as increasing front spring rates alone and smaller tires in the front. Biasing roll stiffness in the back as well as increasing rear spring rates and larger tires in the front increases bias towards oversteer. If you add comparable roll stiffness in the front and back, you may be adding no change in the understeer/oversteer bias, but still have a better handling car. If you buy a matches set of sway bars, the manufacturer may size the bars so understeer is still reduced. Add to this that roll stiffness in the front has to be greater because front wheel drive cars are front biased. If you add the same amount of additional stiffness in the front and the back, the bias will be towards oversteer. All these biases add up to the overall bias of the car. The manufacturer of a family car biases the car for heavy understeer. A sports car should be neutral. A drifter wants heavy oversteer. For anyone with the Progress bar, which I am planning to buy as soon as I get a torque wrench, does the car bias towards oversteer, or neutral handling. Adding a front bar appears to be such a PITA to install that it is not under consideration for me.

[MadBill]

Quote, originally posted by Sunny » That's what I like to see, a knowledgable response. You remind me of MadBill, a old member who rarely shows up on GenVibe anymore. He's busy with a vintage corvette, beating the likes of Peter Klute of Dream Car Garage in the race at the Molson Indy in Toronto.But not too busy to log in when someone has nice things to say about him...

[ZubenElGenubi]

That hurt my brain parts, harryyiii. However, after doing a little more online research (ex. Wikipedia definition), I think I got a better picture of what you're talking about. The hardpart is understanding how understeer and oversteer affect cornering.Here's good diagram and explanation from an Edmunds.com article:Figure A is what happens when your front tires lose grip. It's called understeer or push. Figure B is what happens when your rear tires lose grip. It's called oversteer or fishtailing.In my case, after I installed the Progress rear antisway bar, the overall roll of the car seemed less when cornering. That may seem counterintuitive to your description, as the car would now be biased more toward oversteer, but that's just my impression. The front end of the car should drop more now, putting more downward force than lateral force on the front tires and make the car more neutral.I'm guessing that if I were to install a replacement front antisway bar (TRD), that while the overall roll would decrease even further, the lateral force would increase relative to downward force and bring back some oversteer.

[MadBill]

A bigger bar provides more resistance to body roll no matter which end it is on, but it transfers more of the cornering load to the outside tire at its end, thus causing that tire to reach its friction limit sooner and start sliding.If you merely added a bigger front bar after the larger rear one was in place, the car would understeer more but roll less. Typically, a company selling a pair of bars would use a larger rear than if they were offering it alone, to reduce understeer as well as roll. Otherwise, with the standard front bar and a huge rear one, the dread oversteer would rear its ugly head...

[harryyiii]

This link provides a pretty good description. I found it by following a long link trail from your link. Basically, it is describing that adding roll stiffness to one end of a car shifts more weight to that end of the car, making those tires have a higher load and the other end tires have a lower load. I knew the what, but this explains the why, which I had forgotten. http://www.240edge.com/perform....html

[harryyiii]

Resurrecting this old post, I am reporting that I have installed the Progress bar. The critical part of the installation is to torque the two bolts to 150 ft-lbs. The bar works great. Very neutral handling, no plowing, and no tail drift. I am going to modify my previous statements. The Hotchkiss and Progress are the only commercially available sway bars. The Progress is smaller (but not small) and is designed to be neutral with the stock front bar (no front bar available) The Hotchkiss is only sold as a set. No front bar alone is available. The rear bar is heavier than the Progress. I am guessing if you install both, handling will also be neutral, but with more roll resistance. Given how much easier the rear bar is to install (~one hour), and how much cheaper (~1/4), I am very happy with my choice. Now about those springs?????

[zionzr2]

Was there and is there even a need for a RSB in the independant Rear Suspension setup of the AWD models?