Any tips for quicker shifting

IceCold · Post by **IceCold** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:25 am

Any tips for quicker shifting??? how about double clutching??? what is that and how do i do it...thanks

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:54 am

Double clutching is longer.You have to press the clutch, put the tranny in neutral, release the clutch, rev. the engine, re-press the clutch and shift to the next gear.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:10 am

You can only shift as fast as your foot and hand can move. You just to practice to get good and shifting the Vibe. It took me a little getting used to, but I can fly through the gears if need be.

Keely · Post by **Keely** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:41 am

Ben, thanks for the clear explanation on this. I only learned how to drive manual 6 months ago from my Dad, who's been saying I need to learn how to do this. Tell me - when is it useful to double-clutch? Or is it only for kicks? TIA,

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:53 am

quote:Ben, thanks for the clear explanation on this. I only learned how to drive manual 6 months ago from my Dad, who's been saying I need to learn how to do this. Tell me - when is it useful to double-clutch? Or is it only for kicks? TIA,You don't need to double-clutch with a tranny who is syncro. Double clutch is used when there's no syncro between trany and flywhell. You need to put the tranny in neutral, lounch the clutch and give a little gas to synchronise flywhell and tranny. As you should know, all cars built today ahve synchro tranny. I could be usefull to know how to double clutch if the synchronisation gears brake.

Keely · Post by **Keely** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:00 am

quote:I could be usefull to know how to double clutch if the synchronisation gears brake.Okay, I guess I understand. The revving of the engine while in neutral helps syncs the tranny then? More education for me, if you could - does this differ from "slipping the clutch" (another term I've heard that I don't understand)?

millster · Post by **millster** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:53 am

quote:...does this differ from "slipping the clutch" (another term I've heard that I don't understand)?Yes it does. "Slipping" refers to holding the clutch partially engaged in an effort to keep the engine revving high. It's hard on the clutch, but useful with a low torque engine.

Sub-Vibe-R · Post by **Sub-Vibe-R** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:01 am

quote:I could be usefull to know how to double clutch if the synchronisation gears brake.Okay, I guess I understand. The revving of the engine while in neutral helps syncs the tranny then? Exactly. It is to synchronize part who are not apinning at the same speed.quote:More education for me, if you could - does this differ from "slipping the clutch" (another term I've heard that I don't understand)?Slipping the clutch is totally different. The clutch is the part who link both flywheel (engine output shaft end) and the tranny. When you press the clutch, the clutch does not touch the flywhell, so the engine and the tranny are not attatch together. When you release the clutch, the clutch disk more toward the flywhell. When the clutch is slipping, it is when the lcutch disk touch the flywheel but the are not totally stick together. The flywhell spin faster then the tranny and it cause friction. If you let slipping enough the clutch, you'll smell a burning odor.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:26 am

Burning odor = damage to clutch. A definate no-no. This is why you never want to ride the clutch or start in too low of a gear.

esjones · Post by **esjones** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:55 am

quote:This is why you never want to ride the clutch or start in too low of a gear.That should be, "...too HIGH of a gear." - Earl

esjones · Post by **esjones** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:58 am

quote:Tell me - when is it useful to double-clutch? Or is it only for kicks? TIA,Another thing... old, I mean OLD manual transmissions were not synchronized in first gear. That meant that you generally could NOT downshift into first when the car was moving without double-clutching. As a technique, tell your Dad (who probably remembers this) that with a fully-synchronized transmission, double-clutching is not necessary.

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:00 am

As far as I know, double clutching is more fun when downshifting - Pretend that you're driving along in 4th driving towards a corner you need to be in 2nd for: clutch in - shift to neutral - clutch out - rev engine to match 3rd - clutch in - SLIDE into 3rd - rev to match road speed - clutch out. Repeat the process and you're in 2nd. It seeems like a big waste of time, until you think about how you can work the brake pedal to get slowed down when you're not blipping the engine. It's something you can practice on the road on the way to work - you're having a blast and you're not breaking any speed limits or other laws. The only thing it's really any good for is saving wear and tear on your synchros though. Once you feel how easily the lever slides into gear without having to wait for the synchros, you won't want to have to "push" the lever into gear anymore...

Keely · Post by **Keely** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:30 am

Yoda, that's exactly what my Dad has been talking about, using that blipping term. Awesome! I'll try your recipe next time I'm out (I love downshifting into corners as it is) - when it's more than -30C and there isn't quite as much ice and snow around... You're a ! Thanks for the tips, everyone. Keep them coming!

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:44 am

I found that on these really cold mornings, it's a lost easier to double clutch into first until the car is warm. Once you get going, the tranny warms up and you don't have to do it.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:41 pm

I agree with mu_ohio here. Although I never really double clutch a fully syncronized tranny because it really isn't necessary, doing so in the very cold temps will make the first few shifts smoother. I find it more difficult to double shift the six speed because the gears are so close (I mean in ratio, not physical positioning). By the time a double clutched shift is completed, the car's speed is reduced and you could go back into the gear you just shifted out of to pick up speed. Double clutching when trying to get maximum acceleration will not work well. It just takes too long. But I'm glad to see such good explanations of what is going on with the clutch and tranny in this thread.I learned about double clutching from our commercial trucks at work. The newer ones have synchros on the upshifts but downshifts require the double clutching. The older trucks have to be double clutched almost all the time. Unless you know the shift points where the engine speed and rpms match up from experience, you have to double clutch all the time or you just grind gears. Our 1994 GMC 3500 3-ton dump truck has lost the third gear syncro, so it usually has to be double clutched to get it into third, but the other gears work fine. It gets to be a real pain. Our Mack trucks have a dual clutch where there are actually 2 clutch discs with a solid plate in between them. This is because the drivetrain is very heavy duty and meant for hauling heavy loads consistantly. A single clutch would wear out too fast and put more strain on the drivetrain. One of our largest trucks was overloaded last year and the solid plate in between the two clutch discs shattered on the highway. Needless to say, that caused some major problems.As for shifting with a six speed Vibe, I have found that after about 3,000 miles on the car, the tranny is well broken in and shifting is much smoother and easier. It is notchy and tricky when new. I was missing gears all the time. Now, I can bang through the gears as fast as my hand and clutch leg can work together and even shifting quickly is pretty seamless. The trick is in getting the timing of the hand and feet correct. I like to let off the gas just after I begin to push down the clutch. You can start to take the car out of the gear it is in before you fully depress the clutch to shift quicker. Less time spent in between shifts means faster acceleration times. I can do it so quickly now that I don't even have to think about what I am doing. You just have to learn the placement of the gears by driving the car and when the clutch and tranny have broken in, quick shifting will come easily once you get the shift hand to coordinate well with the feet. I have found that when you let the engine rev out into higher rpm's, it takes a little longer for the synchros to catch up and you have to pause slightly before the shifter will go into the next gear.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:35 pm

quote:That should be, "...too HIGH of a gear."That is correct Earl. My mistake.

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 7:26 am

This is fun :Really the only way I know to shift quicker for upshifting is "powershifting", but it's not too good on the tranny. If you're in first gear and you need to get into second, leave the throttle on the floor and pull back on the stick around 0.2 seconds before redline. as soon as you get the stick out of gear, clutch in as fast as you can and bounce your foot off the floor. (sometimes I actually pull my left leg off the seat and just hover there like I'm going to step on a wasp, or kick something) By the time your clutch comes back out, you should already be in the next gear and the clutch should start slipping again. Note, the only synchronizing you have to do is between your right hand and left foot. No finesse, just brute force. It's bad for the gear synchros and the clutch even if you do it right. If you get it wrong, it can get expensive. Some racers tell me it's only necessary to clutch in halfway, but I still can't imagine how that's faster than bouncing your foot off the floor. I would probably need to be coordinated and fast to pull that off, and I'm too scared of grinding noises to try it...Also, I didn't realize everyone was having the same synchro problems with cold transmission. On previous vehicles, I've been able to lower my shft efforts by changing to synthetic gear lube and greasing the shift linkages on the trans and at the gear lever with "slick50 onelube". I may have to make that a project once it is warmer out. Toyota's first gear synchros have not impresed me on any of their cars. Back to downshifting, because it's less expensive: Whether or not you're double clutching, you should definitely "heel and toe" when the pedals are as well set up as ours. Anybody else thinking of getting the TRD quickshifter? I got one for my MR2 a long time ago - that was the best $75 I ever spent. Vibe is $144, which is probably still a good deal, I just wish it included some bends to get the shift knob closer to me.

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:31 am

I have been fooling around with my speed shifting to stay over 6000 rpms. I have a mechanical background and you do not need to fully depress the pedal to shift. When you push on the pedal the master cyl pushes on the slave cyl and starts dis-engaging the clutch from the flywheel. If you are driving along in any gear at any rpm try pushing the pedal. You will find the engine dis-engaging way before your clutch foot hits the floor. My method is bring the rpms just about hit the rev limiter. Let off the gas and pull light tension on the shifter. Start pressing the clutch and pull hard on the shifter and it flys into the next gear. As soon as you sense it dropping into the gear solid, back on the gas hard as you let out the clutch. this all happens faster that i can type "FAST". You have to picture things happening in your mind. Things to keep in mind. don't actually bump the rev limiter, it is fuel controlled. When it goes into fuel derate you lose just enough rpm to dip below the 6000 rpm. Also if you miss the shift (let out the cluch before your in gear) don't force it, bad things happen.I can now get 1,2,3,4 and stay above the 6000rpm. Very fast 0-80 . Most of the time I back down due to lack of straight road or I run into traffic. I guess the key to it is practice.I don't know why I do this, I guess it is fun to know I can. I don't plan on racing anyone. I just like to go fast.Another thing I think happens, is that when you press the clutch in and open the start protection switch, the computer ? may actually dis-engage the pin that keeps the high speed cam engaged. I revved my engine a few times over 6000rpm with the clutch in and no cam action. It may be the switch or it may be the lack of ground speed?Any theories??

IceCold · Post by **IceCold** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:50 pm

wow all...thanks for all the insight as to how to shift better...i get the idea now that you need to stay in Lift as you switch gears...when i really think about it, thats imparitive for quick acceleration...anyways gonna keep trying...thanks again

Keely · Post by **Keely** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:56 pm

quote:My method is bring the rpms just about hit the rev limiter. Let off the gas and pull light tension on the shifter. Start pressing the clutch and pull hard on the shifter and it flys into the next gear. As soon as you sense it dropping into the gear solid, back on the gas hard as you let out the clutch. this all happens faster that i can type "FAST". You have to picture things happening in your mind. HighRev, I like this explanation. I think I did this yesterday when I was letting my Vibe breathe on a long, straight uphill street. I wanted to spend some time in the high RPMs since the weather has been so crappy lately, I've been in languishing in high gears at low RPMs too much for the engine's good (it was feeling sluggish - am I imagining things?). Every gear I hit over 6,000, and I upshifted from 2-3 and 3-4 in one sequence with very quick and short clutch action (and I don't usually get close to fully depressing the clutch, even in 1st). She shifted so beautifully with so littlle perceptible dip in RPM, I was flying even up the hill. WOW!This is going to sound very odd, but I'd thought I'd share. When I was younger, I used to have dreams where I was driving a manual tranmission. Now, these dreams weren't about where I was going, or who was with me in the car, or whatever - they were actually about the mechanics of how I would accelerateclutchshiftaccelerate - very detailed - despite the fact that I had not yet learned how to drive standard! I used to think that these dreams were only some Freudian thing since I also dream a lot about flying and snakes. But when I learned stick shift last August, I had this overwhelming feeling like this is what I was meant to do, and all those dreams made sense....Right then! Back to your regularly-scheduled programming ....

Voitek · Post by **Voitek** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:36 am

More efficient shifting would be if you change your co-ordination slightly. You would pull the stick to neutral, THEN apply clutch and shift into desired gear. It is quite safe to pull the transmission out of the gear and into neutral without using the clutch. What is important here is that your hand moves smoothly through the gears without distinctive "stops" and your foot is "kinda" delayed. Maybe it is not much quicker (you are eliminating only clutch- out of clutch-neutral steps by "fusing" into one step), but feels more "sophisticated". I am not too crazy about power shifting, but definitely during the dowshift you would like to bring revs up a bit to synchronize with the lower gear (synchronize revs, not gears, double clutching etc.)Power shifting? It is just burning the clutch. I'd rather shift without the clutch whatsoever! Rauno Altonnen was doing it in his Cooper S in the 60' , but his transmission usually lasted only one rally. Well he was shaving some 0.001s per shift and driving the Works car he did not have to consider replacement costs...but we are talking Monte Carlo rally here, not every day driving. As to the double clutching, I strongly recommend Fiat 500. In fact I would rather save the money on power shifting transmission repairs and get me one of these. Or the Mini (the real one, not the BMW imitation!)

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:48 am

quote:My method is bring the rpms just about hit the rev limiter. Let off the gas and pull light tension on the shifter. Start pressing the clutch and pull hard on the shifter and it flys into the next gear. As soon as you sense it dropping into the gear solid, back on the gas hard as you let out the clutch. I will have to try this - it makes sense, I just wish it was warmer out so I could try it - maybe tomorrow will be good for a 2-3 upshift like this. I know there are ECM MODS for the celica GTS that delay the rev limiter till 8400 rpm. There should be a mod to allow lift to come in earlier. ~5500 ought to be good. A nice sweet 3000 rpm powerband would be kinda cool. Thanks for the tip.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:59 pm

Please forgive my ignorance (I just came out of a Ford Focus that usually never saw higher than 2800-3000 RPMs) but will it cause any damage in the long term to the engine running it that hard and high RPMs? This may sound kinda' strange, but I have had my Vibe GT for about 2000 miles and the highest I have had it rev'd was about 4800 or 4900. I worry about causing engine damage. Also.....it gets kinda' loud. So far, though, I LOVE my Vibe GT. One of these days I'll run it up to 6000 RPMs

canadavibegt · Post by **canadavibegt** » Sat Mar 15, 2003 2:06 am

quote:Please forgive my ignorance (I just came out of a Ford Focus that usually never saw higher than 2800-3000 RPMs) but will it cause any damage in the long term to the engine running it that hard and high RPMs? This may sound kinda' strange, but I have had my Vibe GT for about 2000 miles and the highest I have had it rev'd was about 4800 or 4900. I worry about causing engine damage. Also.....it gets kinda' loud. So far, though, I LOVE my Vibe GT. One of these days I'll run it up to 6000 RPMs The GT engine was designed to provide max hp after 6000 rpm. If you never go there you will never get to feel the VVT whcih provides an additional 30% gain in hp... Feels sort of like someone kick your car in the (removed)............. give it a try.... once oyou go there you will love it.... p.s. had same problem when i first started to drive the Vibe... used to drive a 5 litre Mustang and a Sunfire GT. Both relatively low reving engines...... would think the Vibe was going to blow up at around 4000....... but it doesn't......... Have fun with it... the key is to not abuse the rev limits.......

vibe owner · Post by **vibe owner** » Sat Mar 15, 2003 2:15 am

Yeah the GT is a little loud in the high end, but the first time you find yourself at 65 mph in second gear you'll be hooked. There are times that high end is handy.My first car was a Fiat, a fun car and a learning experience. I broke the clutch cable 4 or 5 times so I got pretty good at driving with no clutch. I'd encourage anyone to learn how. Starting is tough, you have to put it in gear and start the engine. (Don't park facing uphill.) But once going you can go up and down through the gears pretty easily without damaging anything if you use some patience and practice matching engine speed to engage smoothly.Keely, your dreams are no joke -- you're a kinesthetic person and the stick shift is meant for you. Now about the flying dreams... take up paragliding this summer, you have some excellent terrain nearby. I'd try to explain the snake dreams too, but that would be too big a can of worms.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:01 am

This may be another strange question, but are 6000 RPMs in first or second the same as 6000 RPMs in third or fourth? What I mean is...is it harder on the engine at 6000 RPMs in first gear or would the stress on the engine be the same as when it is in third gear at 6000 RPMs? Also...when does the rev limiter kick in? Has anyone else noticed a sound similar to a lifter tap? I have noticed that every so often I will hear a tapping similar to a lifter tap. I don't hear all the time just every now and then.Jim

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sun Mar 16, 2003 8:10 am

This motor was designed for high rpm. If you guys don't ever take it over 6000rpm you're going to get some carbon buildup and it'll actually be worse for your car in the long run. I hit lift and redline the motor (8200rpm) at least once every time I drive the car. The motor loves it. Enjoy your GT or trade it in on a base Vibe.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sun Mar 16, 2003 9:53 pm

There is truth in that. High performance engines really do require occasional WOT operation. Cylinder pressures and heat from high rpm use does help prevent carbon deposits from building up. The high compression and heat actually burn the carbon off. My father bought a 1966 GTO new in 1966. He never really drove it hard and traded it in in 1971 with some engine problems.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:28 pm

Obviously, too much is not good either. I wouldn't redline it at every chance you get but once every time or everyother time you drive is a good idea (once it fully warmed up).

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:05 am

What is WOT short for?

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:13 am

Wide Open Throttle. (or holding the gas pedal all the way to the floor).

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:15 am

Thanks Stang...I wasn't sure what that was either. I do that quite often!

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:54 am

If anyone is interested in how the 2ZZ-GE "high speed engine" was designed. Check out the Toyota-Matrix web site under specifications. It is quite technical, but has a lot of good info. The engine was designed with some help from Yamaha, motorcyles make up for a lack of displacement by increasing rpm range. It may explain the durabiltiy of the engine.

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:59 am

quote:More efficient shifting would be if you change your co-ordination slightly. You would pull the stick to neutral, THEN apply clutch and shift into desired gear. I think my style is based on the same theory, both versions work well. Both also require quick and precise co-ordination of all three controls.Did anyone notice that most of the posts on this thread are from GT owners?

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:52 am

quote:Did anyone notice that most of the posts on this thread are from GT owners?Punctuated occasionally by a "..your car should be driven like a Buick or it will explode..." comment - what's up with that? Seriously, though - I think that's because 100% of the GT's are manual transmission. For the base car it's probably closer to the 70/30 split typical of small cars. That might make a good base vibe poll topic...

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:27 am

...double clutching, mmmm..... [drool]

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:48 am

I didn't want to admit this but it was too funny, I thought of this thread immediatly.I was getting on the highway today and ****ed from 2-3 with a littlr too much force. My hand slipped off the top of the shifter and I jammed my thumb on the dash and broke my thumb nail.( Homer "Doh")

HIGHREV · Post by **HIGHREV** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:09 am

Actually I had a loose grip on the shifter. The on ramp near my work is under construction and I was checking out the new jersey barriers, not paying close attention to my shifting.

Any tips for quicker shifting

Any tips for quicker shifting

Re: Any tips for quicker shifting (IceCold)

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double-clutching

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