Consumer Reports likes the Vibe

esjones · Post by **esjones** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:34 pm

I just got the new issue of Consumer Reports which is the annual auto issue.They have the Vibe/Matrix listed in their "Top Picks for 2003" list, under the heading "Affordable Versatility." The Vibe/Matrix also is given a check-mark for "Recommended" and is listed in the "Best Bets for under $25,000" category. - Earl

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:31 pm

Cool. Good to hear that a well respected company like Consumer Reports has recommended the Vibe.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:43 pm

Cool. Even though I NEVER go by what they say, because a lot of it is BS. LOL But, giving the Vibe good marks is a plus.

Susky · Post by **Susky** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:04 am

FWIW, I frequently go by what they say. They're one of the reasons I bought my Vibe!I didn't see the latest article, but I did see the comments they had before. And they generally love Toyota and Honda, so this car was halfway there to "recommended" status.

red · Post by **red** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:38 am

if the vibe was totally a GM product, i wondered if it would have been still rated high?

drb22 · Post by **drb22** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:39 am

I guess this is something we all aready knew, but it is good to see it in print. I can now show this to my "car expert" friend who told me he liked the Vibe but "wasn't sure of its value". Ha ha, he likes to rely on magizines for his proof of everything too

Project Shadow · Post by **Project Shadow** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:46 pm

I agree with the possible BS but if anything good is said about non foreign cars (like the big three), its usually undeniable.

Vibe Rater · Post by **Vibe Rater** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:17 pm

quote:if the vibe was totally a GM product, i wondered if it would have been still rated high?I doubt it very much. They are obviously anti GM and grossly pro Toyota. Toyota does have a good product mind you (Big reason why I bought a VIBE) but CR is so biased, it is sometimes embarassing. Toyota could sell a big turd on wheels and CR would recommend it.

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 12:44 am

quote:if the vibe was totally a GM product, i wondered if it would have been still rated high?If the Vibe where totally GM I think it would be a very poor vehicle. Having Toyota really helped the quality of this vehicle IMO.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:22 am

I agree with mu_ohio. if it was a 100% GM, it would be a Sunfire station wagon.also it is not fair to say CR is biased toward foreign cars. look at Road and Track, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, all have negative things to say about Sunfire, Grand Prix, Grand Am, when was the last time they ever finished top in any comparison

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:06 am

quote:I agree with mu_ohio. if it was a 100% GM, it would be a Sunfire station wagon.Funny you should say that because it is more true than you think. The reason the Sunfire is now only sold as a 2-door is mainly because of the Vibe. Pontiac said that the Vibe was their answer to people who wanted a small, sports 4-door. Plus that the 2-door Sunfire outsold the 4-door Sunfire by a large margin.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:25 am

quote:Funny you should say that because it is more true than you think. The reason the Sunfire is now only sold as a 2-door is mainly because of the Vibe. Pontiac said that the Vibe was their answer to people who wanted a small, sports 4-door. Plus that the 2-door Sunfire outsold the 4-door Sunfire by a large margin.I didn't realize they weren't making 4 door Sunfires any longer. What model year does that start with? I've seen 2003 4 doors around town.

VibeSalsa · Post by **VibeSalsa** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:03 am

You're right Sputnik. I don't where they took this information but the Sunfire 4 doors continues to exist.We can go on the GM Canada website to see this: http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicle ... sunf_fc_en Or, maybe it's only in US that the Sunfire Sedan doesn't exist in 2003...

Vibe Rater · Post by **Vibe Rater** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:58 am

Most Canadian Sunfires and Cavaliers are built in Mexico. Most USA Sunfires and Cavaliers are built in the USA. That's probably why there is a difference in the model mix.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:27 pm

quote:I doubt it very much. They are obviously anti GM and grossly pro Toyota. Toyota does have a good product mind you (Big reason why I bought a VIBE) but CR is so biased, it is sometimes embarassing. Toyota could sell a big turd on wheels and CR would recommend it.I have to totally agree with Vibe Rater here. I remember back around 1991 or 1992, some TV show like Dateline or 20/20 exposed the Consumer Reports Automotive ratings. They found out that an executive from high up in Toyota was also on the board at CR. They were accepting an inordinate amount of advertising money or something from Toyota, also. Toyota's cars were "mysteriously" crowding their recommended and top 10 lists. If I remember correctly, the Toyota Previa kept getting great reviews even though it has serious safety problems with front end crash tests that eventually forced Toyota to redesign and rename it. Not that Toyota's cars are terrible or anything, just that CR is obviously biased toward Toyota and Honda and has been for over a decade now. I personally only consider their repair frequency and recall data when looking at the car reviews. Since the Vibe was new, there was no real data available. The TV show that exposed the CR/Toyota bias suggested consumers look at the JD Powers and Associates ratings for autos because they relied on customer and consumer surveys to discover if a particular car had an overall flaw. I got a JD Powers Survey about 2 months after I bought my Vibe. I filled it out and sent it in.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:55 pm

I think because of uniqueness of Vibe (Toyota marketed by GM), we have 2 kinds of buyers here in the forum:1. traditional GM/Ford/Chrysler buyers. went to Pontiac dealer, compare the Vibe against Grand Am, Sunfire, and decided on the Vibe. Never an import buyer, would not consider Matrix. 2. Toyota/Honda/Nissan car buyer. bought a Vibe because it was really a Toyota but with big rebates, and GM card points makes it a great deal. would never been caught dead in a Pontiac dealer lot.I am with the 2nd group.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:00 pm

Main reason why I dont go by CR. Magazines can be one sided. All it takes is cash and highups. Ask people who have owned the vehicles. They will know more. I just got one of those multipaged surveys, also. Need to fill it out.

esjones · Post by **esjones** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:08 pm

I quit trusting CR for automotive information several years ago. They did a review of an Oldsmobile or Buick model, and mentioned that there was a problem with the turn signal being shorted to the ignition key warning buzzer.In fact, what they described as a flaw was actually a feature. Some Olds and Buick models automatically start beeping the turn signal at a loud level if you drive with the signal on for more that a third of a mile or so. It's because those brands have a traditionally older buyer base, and drivers who may not hear the faint clicking of the normal turn signal.My Olds Intrigue has this feature. I call it the "Geezer Alert." - Earl

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:17 pm

Yeah, the louder beeping on the turn signal would be a great feature. Some people ride for miles with their turn signal on, not knowing it.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:42 am

I bought my PT Cruiser becasue of it's style - woudlprobably have bought even if made by KIA.I bought the VIBE because with rebates and discount it was priced right at $5,000 under MSRP AND made by Toyota.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:15 am

I trust CR very much. other than some basic differences (more biased towards reliability and safety), most of what CR's ratings matches what all other car magazines says. Sunfire / Grand Am / Grand Prix were rated low in CR, but they were also rated last in every other automotive magazines. same goes with almost all Oldsmobile and Buick. Vibe / Matrix came in about the same (ratings) in CR and other magazines.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:46 am

quote: Sunfire / Grand Am / Grand Prix were rated low in CR, but they were also rated last in every other automotive magazines. Perfect example why I dont go by CR. My GA is a 93 with 160K miles on it, and it still runs like brand new. All that's been done so far is the A/C condenser had a hole in it and the tranny had a second gear sync. thing (Whatever it's called) go out. I was never easy on it and moded the engine, and it's held up flawlessly.Point is, dont go by what some magazine say. They can be bought to say what someone wants them to say. Trust owners.

drb22 · Post by **drb22** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:31 am

quote: Point is, dont go by what some magazine say. They can be bought to say what someone wants them to say. Trust owners.I thought CR was not biased. No advertisements in the magazine. Why do so many people here not trust CR? Is there something I do not know?

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:41 am

quote: Sunfire / Grand Am / Grand Prix were rated low in CR, but they were also rated last in every other automotive magazines. Perfect example why I dont go by CR. My GA is a 93 with 160K miles on it, and it still runs like brand new. All that's been done so far is the A/C condenser had a hole in it and the tranny had a second gear sync. thing (Whatever it's called) go out. I was never easy on it and moded the engine, and it's held up flawlessly.Point is, dont go by what some magazine say. They can be bought to say what someone wants them to say. Trust owners.Have you considered though that your GA might not be the norm? I could conclude that you shouldn't trust owners either because they are biased.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:13 pm

DopeVibeGT, you must be the first group (gm/ford/chrysler buyer) that I mentioned earlier. your GA might be good, but I believe your Vibe will last at least twice your GA.I want to give an example that is hotly debated on the other forum concerning use of synthetic oil. one of the moderator argued that he uses certain brand of synthetic and his car last over 200,000 miles. My conclusion is that he must be a gm/ford/chrysler buyer, because if you ever owned a Toyota (which a Vibe is), you get 200,000 miles if you don't maintain it. my point is with 160,000 miles on a Toyota, It is barely broken in. I expect a Vibe should have at least 250,000 problem free miles, and that's if you don't maintain it right. my cousin has a Camry with 400,000 miles on it. my mechanic's Toyota truck has 500,000 miles on it. and yes, the engine has never been opened up.

ngilbert · Post by **ngilbert** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:04 pm

quote:Why do so many people here not trust CR? Is there something I do not know?Because they don't know anything about vehicles. Hey, they're great for fridges, deep freezes and oven (i.e. appliances) but they try and treat cars and trucks in the same model, plus none of them are professional drivers, so they dont' even know what they are testing. These are the kind of people that give Corvettes poor ratings because it rides firmly.They are also heavily biased, but that's nothing new. The Lemon Aid Car Guide (book) is another piece of biased trash. The best thing to do is do a ton of research, and go with what YOUR head tells you. Definately don't base a decision on 1 source.

Vibe Rater · Post by **Vibe Rater** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:32 pm

A far more reliable source for ratings of new cars is J.D. Power. They are ratings collected from the customer that bought the cars, not a geek journalist from CR that may have only driven their dad's car. The vehicle manufacturers are really focused on good J.D. Power results and will do backflips to achieve a good J.D. Power rating. They constantly study the J.D. Power data and make immediate changes based on them. The customer is still king.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:12 pm

wow!! you guys really don't like CR. although CR is not perfect and is more oriented towards reliability, safety and comfort, I believe it is a great car magazine.CR has been pretty consistent with other magazines on the ratings. pls let me know which specific car you guys think should of rated higher with CR, but were rated high with other car magazines. just don't forget CR's bias towards reliability and comfort. for example, when car and drivers picks 10 best car, they do not consider reliability and safety.

Frosty · Post by **Frosty** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 11:51 pm

quote:I think because of uniqueness of Vibe (Toyota marketed by GM), we have 2 kinds of buyers here in the forum........... I don't think I fit in either pigeon hole, partly because of my location. I was a typically import buyer, but I always considered domestic machines. I am the only import buyer in my family. Some domestics were tempting over the years, but the import value/quality/economy seemed to make more sense.The scale tipped this time because the Matrix XR FWD has no ABS in Canada, which is on my list of must have features. Now that I have a taste of GM's communication, marketing, and allocation skills, I would never order another vehicle from them.A lady at work is ordering a Vibe, she knows in advance what to expect. I should have been advised by GM Canada it would take 5 months to deliver.So, I have no idea what my next car purchase will bring me. Hopefully less frustration.

drb22 · Post by **drb22** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:10 am

I guess, some people do not like CR that much at all - If they are the mark about the Vibe, maybe they are not so bad.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:47 pm

quote:...if you ever owned a Toyota (which a Vibe is), you get 200,000 miles if you don't maintain it. my point is with 160,000 miles on a Toyota, It is barely broken in. I expect a Vibe should have at least 250,000 problem free miles, and that's if you don't maintain it right.Hahahahaha!!! ROFL!!! Expecting 200,000 miles and not maintaining it??? Good luck my friend. Hope you have AAA coverage or somehow swung a deal for a 15 year bumper to bumper zero deductible warranty! NO car on the market today is designed for that kind of use (abuse). With proper care and maintenance, yes, many cars today can see those kind of miles. Neglect the car and forgo the regular maintenance and you might as well play russian roulette with 5 loaded chambers of a 6-shooter. That is the gamble you are taking. You also have to consider where the vehicle is spending most of its life. In southern Florida and California and some other areas, high mileage vehicles may be common. However, around here, when you hit 70,000 miles, its time for a new car in most cases because it will cost more to fix it up than what it is worth. Tons upon tons of road salt ruin sheetmetal and some underpinnings. Giant potholes kill tires, wheels, and suspension parts (20,000 miles on the oringinal shocks/struts around Pittsburgh is considered a miracle worthy of a Vatican investigation). All the steep hills and stop and go traffic kill transmissions and their components as well as wear on the engine. The geograpy, city/roadway layout, and road conditions have a huge impact on the life of a car. The bottom line--there are going to be VERY few cars that spend thier entire life around here that will see 200,000 miles on the original drivetrain, regardless of the manufacturer. The number of cars from the Pittsburgh area that ever saw 500,000 miles on the original drivetrain with no major work and little/no maintenence----probably 0. The most mileage that anyone in my immediate family has ever gotten out of a car that was bought new and driven around this area for its entire life---about 74,000 miles on my mom's 1985 Pontiac 6000 with a 2-barrel carbeurated 2.8L V6. It was bought in the fall of 1985, driven mostly only on weekends for the first seven years (my mom took the bus to work so it sat in the garage all week usually), and traded in the spring of 1996 when she bought a new Saturn SL2. It had to be traded because she was taking my car to work everyday because she didn't trust her car. It had a cracked intake manifold that made the engine leak vacuum so bad that you had to drive 2 footed and give it gas when you came to a stop sign or light because it would stall out. It even stalled on the highway at 70 mph if you didn't give it gas. The R-12 refrigerant leaked out after about 9 years (not bad overall) and the original front brake rotors and linings lasted for 6 years (about 42,000 miles, the mechanics couldn't believe it). I think the original drums and shoes were still on the rear brakes when it was traded in. Other than a few minor repairs/regular replacement parts, it held up quite well until the end. The interior was in excellent condition and the body had one small rust spot just above the chrome trim on the one rear wheelwell that was about the size of a quarter. When she went to trade it in, they offered her $750 for it without seeing it, as a rough estimate. After the dealer saw it when we brought it in to trade it, they said it was in much better shape than they had imagined it would be and gave my mom $1500 for it on trade without her even asking for more. None of our other vehicles have made it that far yet in years or mileage.As for the 2 catagory theory, I can't say that I really fall into either category. I buy cars that I like, not because some consumer magazine predicts that it will last 12 million miles with little maintenence. I wouldn't want to own a car that long. I like having a new car every few years, in general. So far, I've owned a few Pontiacs, a Suzuki, and a Ford. By far, I have enjoyed my Pontiacs the most. My Vibe is one of my 2 favorite cars I've owned so far. I will buy a Japanese car if I really like it, but I do not generally prefer them. I seriously considered a new Civic EX before I went to look at Vibes, and I'm very happy that I got the Vibe. My family buys almost exclusively GM vehicles, and has since the late 1930's. For about 45 years, all but one car bought by my father and his father was a Pontiac. That one car that was not a Pontiac was a new Cadillac my dad bought in the 60's that was traded in on a new Pontiac after one week because of numerous electrical problems and the radiator blew a good leak. Since I was born, there has ALWAYS been at least one Pontiac in our garage or in our driveway. We have 2 today (my Vibe GT and my stepdad's '86 Fiero GT). So I do have a strong domestic background, but it does not keep me away from the Japanese car lots. I encouraged my sister to order her new Corolla last fall and will be helping my girlfriend this spring when she goes to buy a new Mazda 6. My big complaints about Japanese cars are that I feel they are generally too small and light, I do not like the way most of their interiors are laid out, and I generally do not like the way they ride/handle. Granted, most higher end Japanese cars are mostly a mix of bigger american cars crossed with European characteristics that I would love to drive/own. But the Japanese cars that are currently affordable to me are kinda junky, in my opinion, with a few exceptions. They might last me 200,000 miles, but I wouldn't want to have them for any more than 200 miles just because I don't like them. I only seriously considered a new Civic because it would have been very easy to modify because of the huge aftermarket parts selection for them. I was only going to buy it to mod the hell out of it, but I'd hate to go real ricey. The Vibe GT was perfect for me because of the functionality of it, it has respectable stock performance for its' price range, and there is enough of an aftermarket for it that I can make the changes that I want without much hassle to find parts. Overall, I am very pleased with my puchase and hope to have this Vibe for quite a while.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:18 pm

you are right about 2 things, here in southern California, it is much easier on cars. second, Japanese cars are generally smaller for the same price.but from your post, looks like you never owned a Toyota/Honda. that's exactly my point: since you never owned one, your expectation of car longevity is much less. your vibe will last at least twice as much as your other GMs with same maintenance (notice I did not put exact miles, like you said, a car doesn't last as long in your area). and yes, your vibe's engine will last at least 200,000 miles even if everything else fell apart because of road salt.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:23 pm

quote: your vibe will last at least twice as much as your other GMs with same maintenance ... and yes, your vibe's engine will last at least 200,000 miles even if everything else fell apart because of road salt.I even have my doubts about this. According to andrewmva, there are some problems associated with the longevity of usable life in these engines because many of the critical internal parts tend to be on the underbuilt side in order to save weight, particularly in the pistons, so that the engine can rev higher. As for lasting 200,000 miles, I doubt that I would ever see that anyway. It would take me about 16 2/3 years to reach 200,000 miles at the rate I drive historically as a liberal estimate. That would last me until about the year 2020. I am sure there will be many more very interesting cars to come along by then that I will not be able to resist buying. Heck, they're already saying that the first mass produced hydrogen powered cars should come to market around 2008-2010. We might not even have gas stations then to fill up the Vibe. What good would that 200,000 mile capable engine do then? I'd much rather have the engine put out another 100 HP and last 1/3 as long. After 50,000 miles, I want a new car even if the one I have is running strong. Honestly, after 30,000 miles, I am seriously itching to get something new. The only way that I'll be keeping the Vibe for more than 50,000 miles is if it is a second or third car that I just keep around as a weekend toy. I am one of those weirdos that actually enjoys car shopping. I am not intimidated in the least by dealerships and salespeople. I am there to check out the cars. If a salesperson causes me any grief, I am sure to let their manager know about it and I gladly take my business elsewhere. If a dealer won't talk numbers I want to hear, I'm sure that some other dealer will. If there is anything at all that I don't like about a dealership, I don't go back. Simple as that. I usually frustrate the salespeople because I try to learn more about the cars I am looking at than they know and I'm not shy about letting them know I have done my research. So car shopping is a fun little game I love to go play every once in a while. If I only bought a car once every 16-20 years, it would really spoil the fun for me. Not to mention how boring life would be if I only got to own about 4 new cars over an average lifespan. So let them build their cars that will last 200,000 miles. They are only benefitting the people who own the cars later, not me, the new car buyer. I want something fun, fast, and exciting, not something to put me to sleep and bore me to death over 16-20 year spans. I'd rather save the money on insurance and liscencing and commit the ultimate sin of transportation boredom--using mass public transportation.

coratz · Post by **coratz** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:40 pm

all car magazines including consumer reports are corupt. huge financial perks and free cars for a couple of years. i belive nothing i read in those magazines. how can a car test be done without bias?????the 200000 mile engine too many factors? anyone have an extra crystall ball and gypsy?

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:37 am

You are indeed the strange one you actually enjor CAR DEALERSHIP !!!!!any way, I am basing the longevity on 1zz / 2zz engine. 1zz was also in a Corolla. and that engine is one of the longest lasting engine there is.when I say minimum maintenance on the engine, which is what I will probably do, because I believe Toyota engine always outlast the car. 1. I will take the car to Walmart for oil change every 5000 mile.2. Walmart always check to see if you need air filter.3. every 60,000 miles, change spark plug. may be check the timing and valve adjustment (which I doubt is neccessary on this engine, based on my last Corolla). brake fluid flush / automatic transmission flush / coolant flush.I don't know what else to do on the engine. may be fuel filter would be neccessary at 100,000 miles. on tires/shocks/brakes, of course they will have to be replaced much sooner. this is what I consider taking good care of my Vibe's engine. I believe you can push out most maintenance schedule above a bit if you try to save.On the other hand, I have a 1986 Mercedes Benz 190E 16v Cosworth, you can see it at http://www.cardomain.com/id/bellwilliam (along with my Vibe and Porsche Spyder)every 3000 miles, oil changeevery 15,000 miles, air filterevery 30,000 miles, valve, timing, coolant flush, brake flush (this is acutally the schedule according to my manual), spark plugand the Mercedes (with 120,000 miles) still have problems almost yearly. I also have a 1985 Toyota MR2 (with 190,000 miles) that I used to autocross, it still runs great. I also used it for track event, just check the oil and drive. I follow the basic maintence schedule above and never had a problem.

furrydogs · Post by **furrydogs** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:57 am

It appears that most of the people that are bashing consumer reports don't have any idea how the ratings are attained. The annual car issue gets its ratings from about 500,000 responses they get from their members (magazine subscribers) so it is not based on the preferences of some conspiracy group that is out to get the domestic car makers. If you read this year's issue you will see that Mercedes Benz did awful along with Ford. GM remarkably had a good showing along with Honda and Toyota. I think that most people get bent out of shape concerning the CR reviews because nobody wants to admit that the car they own is a piece of crap and their feelings get hurt when they see their car getting lousy reviews. The truth hurts.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:23 pm

yes, finally someone on my side. CR's review is pretty consistent with other car magazines. but many still believe it is a BIG conspiracy to put down GM/Ford/Chrysler.if you think this is a big conspiracy, check this out: one of our admin here believe oil companies are making all the 100mpg cars go away.http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=673&page=2I quote: "Many people have designed and made 100 mile per gallon carbs for vehicles. Those people disappear. Hmmmm wonder why. You'd be amazed what money does to people and companys. Oil companys have alot of control over car manufactures, no matter what a car manufacturer tells you. You think the oil companys want GM making 100 mile per gallon SUVs? Hell no. Think about it a Trans Am with it's 5.7 liter V-8 makes 325HP this year and get around 26 to 28 on the high way but a SUV weighing very close to the same thing and at a lower HP rating only gets half that? Something isn't right."

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:16 pm

There is a good deal of truth to that oil conspiracy. The amount of money invested in oil, oil drilling, exploration, futures, etc. is absolutely staggering. There is no way the oil people want 100 mpg cars being commonplace.Back to the CR issue. If what you are all saying about how CR formulates its ratings is true, than autos are the ONLY product tested that way and it goes against the very foundation of what the magazine attempts to accomplish. They try to rule out error as much as possible through scientific tests and measurements. You can measure how well a car brakes and handles compared to another, but how do you determine scientifically which one is more fun to drive or is more stylish? These are subjective characteristics that the consumer determines. Majority rules does not even apply to these things. Maybe 200 million people surveyed think the car looks like a piece of ugly crap, but you or I might like its design. I believe they also take into account the NHTSA safety test data. CR grouses about how they provide their subscribers with unbiased ratings on products based solely on tests they conduct themselves. When it comes to autos, they break all the rules that they themselves made. That certainly does not earn my trust.As for your acclaim of the Toyota products that you own, I am quite happy for you that you thoroughly enjoy the cars you have purchased. However, the point I was trying to make earlier still remains, but I have discovered your discrepency. My point was that I do not want to own and drive the same car every day for 20 years regardless of how well it runs or cheap it is to maintain. From your updated post, it has become clear that you have probably kept every car that you have ever owned and still have them to this day. While impressive, it is quite impractical for me. It costs me $110 per month to park only ONE car here at school. For me to park every car I ever owned here would cost me thousands of dollars per year. I have nowhere else to keep my vehicles, so I have no other option. Therefore, the 200,000 mile car still does me no good. In reality, if I had kept every car I owned for 200,000 miles, it would cost me far more than buying one new car every 60,000 to 70,000 miles. It would not be practical for me.As for the 1zz/2zz being a long lasting engine, there are several issues here. I don't know how much you've read on here or already know about them, but if you search through some of the older topics in the engines forum on this site, you will learn a good deal about them. Much of the info I read about these 2 engines was posted by andrewmva, who works in a performace shop in New Jersey and is extremely knowledgable with late model import engines. We were discussing the possibilities of different methods of forced induction and what would be the limits on these engines. It boiled down to a few key issues. First, the 1zz and 2zz engines share very few parts and are not even based on the same block if I understand this all correctly. The 1zz has a longer stroke and narrower bore, giving it more torque relative to its horsepower rating. It arrives at a 1.8L displacement as we all probably already know. The 2zz engine is NOT just a 1zz engine with some fancy valve configuration and high tech computer running the timing and valve duration. The 2zz has different internals and uses a shorter stroke and wider bore, but still arrives at 1.8L of total displacement. The shorter stroke was decided upon because it allows the engine to rev higher. This has to do with physics and inertia of the pistons when they are traveling in the block. We aren't going to go into a full physics lesson here, but that is basicly how it works. I'm sure the cylinder heads, intake manifolds, and valves are completely different for the two engines. These two engines don't share enough components or technology to make the determination that just because one engine lasts a long time the other one will, too. I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, I just wanted to make sure everyone is real clear on the fact that these are 2 truly different engines made by the same manufacturer. To add to all this, Toyota does not even do the fancy work on what gives the 2zz engine its extra power boost with the cam lift duration change. This task was subcontracted to Yamaha, who also was contracted by Ford for several years to rework the Ford 3.0L V6 engines in the Taurus SHO's.As for the longevity of the 1zz engine, I hope you are correct. I urged my sister to buy a 2003 Corolla S last fall with the hopes that it would provide her with many relatively trouble free miles. I can do a lot of the smaller work on cars myself, however, she cannot. It is rather easy for me to change oil, filters, belts, hoses, fuses, spark plugs, spark plug wires, alternators, batteries, fuel injectors, lights, brake calipers, pads, shoes, drums, rotors, etc., but she would be lost in attempting most of those repairs. (I'll let you in on another little oddity about myself--- I even enjoy tearing the car apart and fixing things myself.) So I am relying on her new Corolla holding up for a while, or I am going to look like a real monkey for giving it such a strong recommendation and even going with her to help her get a good deal on one.Back to our previous discussion on andrewmva's thoughts on the longevity of these engines. He has stated that the piston rods in the 1zz engine look like "toothpicks" and that any serious modification of that engine should be accompanied by the replacement of the pistons. Now I may be old school when it comes to internal engine parts, but to liken the piston rods to toothpicks is anything but confidence inspiring. I can only imagine what the rest of the insides must look like. He had also stated that the piston rods in the 2zz didn't look much better. Also, he made note of the fact that he had been hearing about repeated problems common to the 2zz engine and the 6-speed transmission in the Toyota Celica. This info is anything but confidence inspiring as well. It is my hope that Toyota addressed these problems and at least took measures to correct them for use in the new Vibe, Matrix, and Celica as well. I had inquired as to what specific problems were coming up and if Toyota had tried to correct them, but I did not get a response. We can only hope.As for your own maintenance practices, I am glad that you have been able to achieve good results with minimal care for most of your vehicles. As for Walmart oil, well, I wouldn't use it myself, but I suppose it meets the bare minumum requirements. It is liquid, brown, and slippery. An air filter change every 15,000 miles is practically unheard of around here. For me, the air filter is usually garbage after 7,000 to 8,000 miles (except K&N, of course). Changing the spark plugs at 60,000 miles will probably not be necessary for me. The manual tells me that the platinum plugs in my GT shouldn't need replaced before 100,000 miles. Same for the coolant. Although, like I said, I am old school regarding engines, so changing these things much sooner might be on my schedule. I want maximum performance every time I turn the key. Worn out spark plugs and/or wires are not acceptable to me. Timing, I believe, is computer controlled on these engines (as with most cars today) and is not adjustable. The only way to adjust the timing is to change the cars engine management computer or chip. Not something I am going to attempt on my 2zz engine because it is pretty high-tech. I won't be checking valve adjustment on mine, either, because unless the engine is running poorly, this won't be necessary. Again, controlled by the computer and going to be very complicated to have checked out. Brake fluid will be flushed and changed when the manual suggests it. My manual tranny, as I understand it, comes from the factory with fully synthetic fluid. If I find this not to be the case, it will be replaced with fully synthetic fluid. Otherwise, it will be changed at 100,000 miles if I keep it that long, or if work has
to be performed on the tranny. I drive pretty hard almost every time I drive. It is a race for me usually from every stoplight to stoplight. I expect things to wear out faster than for most people. That is why I like heavy duty products. Wearing things out faster is just the price I pay for enjoying my daily driving. My tires, wheels, and shocks will probably be replaced this spring. I want to lower the car a little and put chrome wheels with performance tires on it. I will upgrade the brakes myself when a reasonably priced kit becomes available that includes larger rotors and pads. The rear brakes are absolutely puny in my opinion.quote:You are indeed the strange one you actually enjoy CAR DEALERSHIP !!!!!Yes, this is quite true. What is even stranger is that I am in business school because I still want to own my own dealership. That way, I would be able to fulfill my lifelong dream to be able to work around cars all day AND provide a good service for my customers/community.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:48 pm

It pales in comparison to some of my other novels on here. Derek is occasionally good for a post whose length puts all of mine to shame. But I'm still the King of Long Posts for a good reason. Just remember, it's not the size of your post that really matters....

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:24 am

Stang2Vibe, wow, that's a long post. I agree with almost everything you said. except on the CR thing. yes, both 1zz and 2zz will last very very long time, so your recommendation to your sister on Corolla is very good (on reliability issue, I am not sure on fun to drive). as for piston rod being a toothpick, I think the performance shop guy was refering to its inability to hot rod the 1zz engine, but in stock configuration. piston rod is the last thing to break in normal driving.also Walmart is not that bad. they use either Penzoil or Castro (you can also choose between regulat, synthetic or synthetic blend) oil. as for both oil and air filter, they use both Fram. again Fram oil filter was rated the best by CR (yes, yes I know, don't get you started on CR again). there is really no air filter schedule, Walmart change them out automatically when it is dirty, they only charge for the part, not labor. so I don't even bother keep track of it.so you see, I agree with almost everything you said, from you post, you probably do a little less maintenance yourself than me.and congrat on your car dealership plan. it will be a refreshing change to see a good car dealership.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:41 am

quote:your recommendation to your sister on Corolla is very good (on reliability issue, I am not sure on fun to drive).I made sure to let her pick a car she thought was fun to drive. She was considering a Volvo, VW Jetta, Civic, and maybe one or two others. The Jetta is notorious for problems, particularly electrical. The Volvo was overpriced for what you get (and I still think most of them are really ugly), the Civic is rather small and feels too light and thin, besides that she doesn't really like the styling. When I first suggested a Corolla, she didn't even want to give it a second thought because she was assuming it was another boring economy car. Being 21 and in college, she wanted something that was practical, yet stylish and fun. I kept giving her a gentle nudge to check out the Corolla. I knew they had high reliability and resale value even with their cheaper models. She eventually did some reseach online on the models she was interested in, and found the Corolla S package. She loved the sporty look and enjoyed the Corolla when she test drove it a few times. She got a Corolla S with the 5-speed because for what she saved by not getting the automatic, she could get the power moonroof and ABS. She never drove a stick before, so I had to teach her on my Mustang while they were building her car. I ask her frequently how she likes her new car, and she always smiles and tells me that she loves it and it has been great so far. So perhaps I am a natural automotive matchmaker? My mom has also been pleased with cars I suggested for her to check out, and when considering a new car she always comes to ask me and my stepdad first to suggest a few cars that she might like.As for the Vibe engines lasting a long time, I hope you are right. But the last thing that I bought the Vibe for was to leave it stock. One of my major factors for buying the Vibe was the aftermarket parts potential. Now I never intended to go funny car drag racing with it, but a few engine mods are planned. I will be installing a CAI this spring, and would like to change the computer chip when a good one becomes available, and possibly a few other mods under the hood. A Flowmaster 60 series muffler is in the works. The suspension and handling are on my list as the most annoying things about the car, and several mods for that are planned. Window tint will be added and I already have my decals from GrafxWerks for the exterior. Changing the wheels and tires for the summer months will be a must as well. I have already installed the carbon fiber dashboard and interior trim kit, so other than for getting aluminum MOMO pedals and possibly door sill plates, I am pretty happy with the interior. Since my engine mods are not very extreme, I think the engine should hold up. Until that supercharger becomes available for the GT. Then the pistons will probably have to go.As for your oil choices, Pennziol is pretty good and Castrol is not bad either. When AdminII posted the lab data that Amsoil provided, I was shocked to see that Pennziol was outperforming Mobil 1 in some of the wear tests. For a natural oil, that is my first choice. For my Vibe, however, I will be switching to Amsoil and going for the once per year oil change. A K&N conical air filter is supplied with the Injen CAI, so that will be my air filter. I have had K&N's before and have liked them very much. The oil filter will probably be the one from Amsoil. But if I were to use natural oil in my Vibe, I'd use GM's Duraguard II oil filter. I have liked those in the past as well.As for my dealership plans, I thank you for the encouragement. I think it is something that I would really enjoy. I would look foreward to going to work every morning. I love to help people find the right car for them. If I had my own dealership, I would never allow sales staff to push customers toward buying vehicles that were convenient for the dealership to sell. In the long run, it is to my advantage and the customer's to help find the right car for them. If I don't have what suits them and can't get it for them, I would gladly tell them that so we are not wasting each other's time. I would never want to push someone toward a vehicle that they weren't interested in. Word of mouth, both good and bad, is the most powerful form of advertisement. I would never want someone out there telling people that my dealership pushed them to puchase an automobile that they did not want or that they were treated badly in any way by any member of my staff. Staff members who could not serve customers or potential customers in a proper manner would not be retained. I hate the crap some dealerships try to pull on people and they give the industry a big black eye. I would like to put an icebag on that black eye by providing customers with nothing less than outstanding service every time they stop in for a visit. I would like for them to enjoy visiting my dealership as much as I currently enjoy going car shopping at certain places.

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:42 am

See, I'm trying. They're getting shorter!

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:53 am

how come you did not recommend a Matrix to your sister? you would be the goto guy for Matrix/Vibe comparison!!!I guess you did not recommend a Vibe, is that you can't stand your sister might have a better looking car than you (may be better color, lol).you also mentioned electrical problem on Jetta, resale value and reliability of Corolla. hmm, I wonder where you got the info? CR perhaps? have you been secrectly reading CR, lol

Stang2Vibe · Post by **Stang2Vibe** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:44 am

She saw the Matrix on the Toyota dealer lot. She had already said she didn't like it and that it was kinda ugly. I had to agree. The interior was really nice looking so I was checking them out, but the Matrix looks more like a station-wagon than the Vibe does, IMHO. There are really only two major differences between the Matrix and the Vibe. The options packages are different (availibility of some of the options is different, too) and some of the body styling is obviously different. I wouldn't consider buying the Matrix because I didn't like how it looked. I had seen commercials on TV for the Vibe months before I even heard of a Matrix and I loved the look of the Vibe on TV. I saw one or two Vibes around town and really liked them. At the time, I had no clue that the Vibe and Matrix were the same car. Then I found out that the Vibe/Matrix was based on a Corolla. When I discovered the GT package for the Vibe and how affordable it was for me, I became VERY interested. When the dealer told me they were offering 0% financing for any term length, I was sold. I was paying 5.9% on my 2000 Mustang and it was starting to have some problems. 0% financing saves me almost $4,000 off the cost of buying the car. Plus I got the dealer down to $100 over invoice price by using the internet. Got them to come up a bit more on the value of my trade-in as well, so I couldn't beat the deal and I really like the car. I didn't recommend a Vibe to my sister because she was looking strictly at foreign cars and, like I said, I didn't know that it was a Toyota at the time or I would have suggested it. I don't think she would have been very interested in one, anyway. She and my girlfriend both think of the Vibe as an uncool station wagon. I don't see it that way at all. When I am done with my mods, I don't think ANYBODY will be able to look at it as an "uncool station wagon". My sister kinda likes my Vibe and thinks the utility and functionality of it are really nice, but it just isn't cool enough for my girlfriend. She told me the other day that she wishes I had my Mustang back. I don't. I ask her how cool does she think she is driving around in her 4-door 2000 Civic with both front fenders all dented up. Especially since her mom bought it and they have to share it, too. Now she wants an Acura RSX base model that she wants to buy this summer. I told her to go ahead and order one with the lower body kit and rear spoiler. My Vibe will still spank it. The problems with the Jetta were first conveyed to me by a friend of mine who has owned 3 of them. It is also a well known fact among automotive groupies like myself. To not know about resale value and reliability of Toyota products, one must be blind and been living in a cave for the past 15 years. My problem with Toyota for years was the styling. They put no effort into making a decent looking car. When Lexus was launched in 1991, they were a bit better looking, but for the price, there were many much better looking vehicles on the market. Lexus was the first Toyota product to really catch up on styling a vew years later. The 2003 Corolla S is one of the best looking cars Toyota has made in many years. Even the Camry finally looks decent. I was playing around in a well equipped Avalon at the Toyota dealer one day when my sister was looking at her Corollas. I finally even really like the Avalon. Now Honda on the other hand, needs to follow the trend and style their cars a little better. The Civic is so plain looking and the Civic Si is a bit odd looking. The 2002 Accord looked much better to me than the 2003, the new style I think is aweful. The Element, well, that one is the really ugly stepchild of the family. The new CR-V is looking a little better but still doesn't appeal to me. The new Pilot may be the best looking car in the Honda lineup, but I still has its' oddities, too. My biggest problem with Honda is the ugly underpowered cars it markets, the high prices demanded for getting so little, and most of all the eco-hippie image that they have been trying to promote for decades. Their fuel economy is not THAT much better than most other vehicles in their respective classes to warrant such propaganda. And so what if the engines will still run after the body falls all apart. I can't sit on an engine and ride down the highway on it. It is much easier for me to just replace/rebuild an engine or transmission than to have to replace every other part of the car. And if it's ugly, I'm not going to be buying it anyway.As for CR, I can respect their findings for most items, but not on vehicles. When it comes to vehicles, they are total hypocrites and go against everything they stand for. The definitive guide for car buying for several years now has been J.D. Power and Associates. Their awards are touted on every car ad that they are bestowed upon. I don't hear car ads bragging about CR's best picks or recommended buys anymore. That tells me something about the industry right there. I regularly check out Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Automobile magazines for my general info and updates on future designs and trends. I don't place my sole trust in those publications for car buying advice, either.

bellwilliam · Post by **bellwilliam** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:29 am

you really are king of long post!!!quote: I don't hear car ads bragging about CR's best picks or recommended buys anymore. That tells me something about the industry right there. acutally the reason CR's best pick or recommendation is not touted in ads is because it is not allowed by CR. they will sue if you do. don't know how they enforce it though

red · Post by **red** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:48 pm

i've owned my fair share of vehicles..new and used (16) since 1982 and most of them didnt make the CR wish list....however 13 out of the 15 were very good vehicles that didnt give me alot of grief and provided excellent service in the extreme temps we have here...most were GM's....when i went car shopping 6 months ago, i couldnt believe the improvements made across the board by the american manufactures...most i test drove were solid cars....i bought my vibe mostly 'cause it was a pontiac and mostly 'cause its awd...actually i am a bit worried about it being toyota underpinnings because the cost of repairs/parts are gonna be expensive....i wish it was a in house gm design...at least it would be cheap to fix...and who's to say that it wouldnt of held up as long with a 2.4 gm engine than a 1.8 toyota engine....i still believe that CR is biased because of the impressions that american manufacturers left on the public 10 yrs ago...also they dont admit when they are wrong and with their clout they can almost bankrupt a car builder (izuzu comes to mind)

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:35 am

saw a thread over at MO where someone posted Quote Â»According to Consumer Reports' April 2004 issue the Vibe is twice as reliable and more satisfying to its owners than the Matrix is to its ownersSo, who gets CR and can post the article?

Houston · Post by **Houston** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:22 pm

Quote, originally posted by furrydogs Â»It appears that most of the people that are bashing consumer reports don't have any idea how the ratings are attained... gets its ratings from about 500,000 responses they get from their members... GM remarkably had a good showing along with Honda and Toyota... people get bent out of shape concerning the CR reviews because nobody wants to admit that the car they own is a piece of crap... The truth hurts.Right on! When I am about to purchase anything expensive, Consumer Reports is the first place I look. That magazine is my bible when it comes to this, and has not led me astray in some forty odd years.They don't accept advertising and if they ever accepted a payoff that magazine would be through.Some of these foreign makes are at the top simply because they are the best. American cars are now so close in quality that the difference is insignificant. I worked in Buick final assembly for over thirty years and did I ever see an improvement in quality over those years. Unfortunately, to the detriment of this country's bottom line, the American public - along with many right here - does not yet perceive this improvement.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 pm

i always research any vehicle before i buy it.... i made the mistake only once and ate a lot of money in repairs... i love CR! they are very reliable imo when it comes to best quality and reliability out there!

slingblade · Post by **slingblade** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:39 pm

Did C.R. mention that you need to tow your own paint booth behind the Vibe?