New vibe won't start

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:11 pm

Now that the temperature is starting to warm up on a normal basis... my starting problem is getting worse, again! Wasn't too bad during the winter while it was cold, but just as I thought, warm weather means more "won't start" problems. Really frustrating!

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Mon May 01, 2006 4:15 am

I feel ya, I have noticed it has gone from happening once a week to 1ce every couple days, and on days that it is acting funky multiple times in one day.CH

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:36 pm

HAd my PCM replaced back around Christmas time, and now the problem is back. Nothing like the embarassment of a '05 that decides on its own when it will start. If the car made its own payment, I could live with it....lol.Count me in on the complaint letter.

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:40 am

I'm all about that complaint letter! Let me know what I need to do, and I'll do it. Anything to get this horrible, embarassing, wide-spread issue taken care of. Come on Pontiac!!!

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:09 am

I don't know how we should do it logistically. I wrote a letter, let me know of any modifications I should make, and I was thinking if you guys want to email me your names, addy, phone #, i'll add them to a sheet and send it with the letter... any other ways of doing it is cool too, let me know.May 2, 2006Pontiac Customer Assistance CenterP.O. Box 33172Detroit, MI 48232-5172To Whom It May Concern:This letter is being sent in reference to a widespread issue occurring in 2005 model year base Vibes. This problem, which is acknowledged as a â€œHot Soak Starting Issue,â€ was supposedly to be remedied by a technical service bulletin dated December 12, 2005. The service bulletin called for the P.C.M. module to be replaced in affected vehicles. Unfortunately, for most, this solution has failed to rectify the problem.This issue has been immensely difficult both to diagnose, and reproduce, causing the consumer extreme inconvenience. It is extremely unpromising for us individuals whom own these affected vehicles that: (1) Have not started correctly when the engine is hot since purchase, and (2) That a solution hasnâ€™t been identified after multiple visits for warranty repair, and P.C.M. replacement. It is absolutely unacceptable for production vehicles to have such a flaw, without recourse, and urge you to promptly seek remediation.This letter is being sent on behalf of owners that are members of http://www.genvibe.com, which is a community of Pontiac Vibe enthusiasts. See attachment for contact information of individual owners.Regards.

Mrizzle05 · Post by **Mrizzle05** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:46 am

sounds good...you think adding in about some of us having intakes and exhaust.... so that we hit hard about us having aftermarket parts and it was a problem before and during the use of the parts?

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:31 pm

The letter sounds good, but we do need to address it to a specific individual. Also, I would leave out the part about aftermarket parts. The last thing we want to do is to have Pontiac say that these issues might, and I stress might, be related to non-factory parts.I can call Pontiac and get the name of the VP we need to address this to if you want.

lkhan · Post by **lkhan** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:32 am

I like the letter as well. I'm wondering if it would be even more effective if we could print out all the complaints/discussions from this site and others to attach along with the letter. It might help show that this problem is more widespread than just the few of us. I know that that there has been some discussion on this topic on the forums at http://www.edmunds.com and I remember some yahoo.com car reviews about this as well (although I think now they only display the 2006 reviews). This is much more work than just a letter but it could make our 'problem' more convincing.

Mrizzle05 · Post by **Mrizzle05** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:39 am

Well fine scratch out my idea! Ok another try... what if (and cuz we have it, you know they will) say its out aftermarket parts.... can we get guys who have taken it in before and after the aftermarket installs. or anyone with records of trying for a fix?

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:39 am

Hook it up, get the name, yea it would be great to direct them to others also having the problem. Ugh, aftermarket parts? That would give them a reason to blame them, and unfortunately, that won't work towards a fix.

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Wed May 03, 2006 9:44 pm

After calling Pontiac, and getting the royal runaround (apparently, no one has a phone directory or knows the name of who is ultimately in charge of customer satisfaction...I should be surprised?), I downloaded the 2005 Annual Report and got the following names and titles. I suggest that the letter be sent to both of these gentlemen, and that we enclose a list of our names, addresses and telephone numbers as part of the letter.Mr. Douglas J. HerbergerGM North AmericaVice President and General Manager, Service & Parts Operations300 Renaissance CenterDetroit, MI 48265-3000Mr. Mark R. LeneveGM North AmericaVice President, Vehicle Sales, Service, and Marketing300 Renaissance CenterDetroit, MI 48265-3000I hope this helps to further our cause.

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:29 am

http://homepage.mac.com/csharrigan/vibe.pdfThat is the letter as it stands, let me know of revisions, and then we can start putting together the list of names.CH

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:38 am

I have a CAI on mine now... still a problem and I had it in the shop before I installed the CAI for the exact same problem. The CAI is NOT the issue!!! Not sure if that helps, but I'll lend a hand in anything I can get to resolve this problem.BTW: The letter looks good, what about the contact of individual owners... how are we going to do that?

Digger · Post by **Digger** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:36 pm

Would this qualify for the lemon law. If so if every one would put in for a lemon law return at once that might get some attention and might be worthy of putting it in the letter.

Mrizzle05 · Post by **Mrizzle05** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:42 pm

WOW! good point... maybe that would shake them up a bit. and if it doesnt we should try and take ours in... trade it for a different one.... GT?hey i can wish!

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:10 pm

The letter looks great. Let me know if I need to do anything else to further the cause.

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:13 pm

Regarding the "lemon law", at least in the state of Ohio, here's the requirements:State of OhioOffice of Attorney GeneralLemon LawOhio legislators passed one of the most comprehensive lemon laws in the nation in 1987. It requires automakers to repair defects that affect the use, value, or safety of a new motor vehicle within the first 12 months or 18,000 miles (whichever comes first). If you are having problems with your NEW purchased or leased vehicle, you should immediately take it to an authorized dealer for repair.The automaker or dealer must be given a reasonable opportunity to fix the problem, and if the problem is not corrected, you might be eligible for a refund or replacement. You are covered by this law even if the problem was discovered late in the protection period and the repair attempts extend beyond one year or 18,000 miles. Failure to comply with Ohio's Lemon Law is a violation of Ohio's Consumer Sales Practices Act.What Is a Lemon?A lemon is a motor vehicle that has a problem or problems, covered by the warranty, that substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of that vehicle. If you have had problems within the first year or 18,000 miles with your passenger car, light truck (no more than one ton load capacity and not used in business), or motorcycle, you should take it back to the manufacturer or the dealer and ask them to fix it. If they fail to correct the problem(s) after being given a reasonable opportunity to do so, you might own a lemon.Has the Manufacturer Had a Reasonable Opportunity to Repair the Vehicle?If you can answer "yes'' to any of the following four questions. the manufacturer is presumed to have had a reasonable opportunity to repair your vehicle under Ohio law.Have three or more attempts been made to repair one problem and then the problem occurs again?Has the vehicle been in the shop for 30 days or more during its first year or 18.000 miles?Have eight or more attempts been made to fix different problems that impair the use, value or safety of the vehicle?Has one unsuccessful attempt been made to fix a problem that could cause death or serious injury? If you answered "yes" to at least one of these four questions, you have the legal right to ask the manufacturer to replace the lemon or refund the entire purchase price.Send a certified letter to the automaker's "Zone Office". You can find the address in your owner's manual, or ask your auto dealer. In the letter, list the problems you've had with the car, and what attempts have been made to correct them. Finally, your letter should indicate whether you want the car replaced or the refund for your full purchase price. Be sure to keep a photocopy of your letter for your records. Claims must be brought within five years of the date of the original delivery of the motor vehicle.Will the Manufacturer Refund the Full Purchase Price of the Vehicle?Once it is clear that your vehicle has not been fixed, the automaker must, at your option, give you a new vehicle or refund the "full purchase price". That price includes all of the following:The price for the car plus the costs for transportation, dealer preparation, delivery, dealer installed accessories, and other services. The costs for financing and credit insurance, as well as any warranty and service charges. Taxes and any other government charges, including state sales tax, license fees and registration fees. Sometimes an automaker will agree with your claim and work to replace your lemon as quickly as possible. In most cases, the manufacturer will request an additional opportunity to repair the vehicle. They may try to negotiate a mutually satisfactory resolution with you. The manufacturer or dealer should advise you about an arbitration program available to informally resolve disputes. If you apply for arbitration, you should expect to wait several weeks for your hearing to be scheduled. Informal arbitration is, however, much faster and less formal than a court proceeding.What Is Arbitration?Arbitration allows a neutral third party to make a decision about your case based on the merits of the claim. The Attorney General's Office has rules for approval of arbitration programs that are intended to ensure a their and timely resolution to the dispute.All automakers participate in some kind of arbitration program. Some of these have been approved by the Attorney General, but others have not. If a program has been approved by the Attorney General, you must go through arbitration before you have the right to file a lawsuit. Contact the Attorney General's Consumer Protection Section to learn which manufacturers have approved arbitration programs.You can find information from your dealer or with the warranty materials explaining how to apply for arbitration. For approved arbitration programs, you have the right to request an oral hearing of your case. These hearings are frequently conducted by telephone conference call for the convenience of all parties.Whether the arbitration program has been approved or not, decisions reached through arbitration are not binding on the consumer.Should I Take My Case to Court?If the automaker does not have an arbitration program approved by the Attorney General, or if you are unhappy with the outcome of the arbitration, you may want to take your case to court. You can file a civil suit to recover the total cost of the vehicle and any attorney's fees you have incurred.What Are the Responsibilities of the Manufacturer and the Dealer?Manufacturers and dealers are required to provide more information to consumers than ever before. Manufacturers must provide this written statement to every new car buyer to inform you of your legal rights under Ohio's Lemon Law.IMPORTANT: If this vehicle is defective, you may be entitled under state law to a replacement or to compensation.Dealers are required to give you a fully itemized, written work order each time you take your vehicle in for repairs or services even if the work is paid for under the manufacturer's warranty. Work orders must list all the work performed, what parts were used, and the cost for parts and labor.Is There Protection for Used Car Buyers?If you are looking at buying a used car, keep in mind that Ohio's Lemon Law does not apply to motor vehicles more than one year old or driven more than 18,000 miles.Also keep in mind that lemons returned to the manufacturer or dealer can be resold to consumers only under certain conditions. A used car dealer must give you the following statement to read and sign before selling you a returned lemon.IMPORTANT: This vehicle was returned to the manufacturer because it did not conform to the manufacturer's express warranty and the nonconformity was not cured within a reasonable amount of time as provided by Ohio law.The automaker must give you at least a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty that offers the same coverage as the original new car warranty.The notice and warranty are required even if the car was returned as a lemon under the law of another state. The notice and warranty serve as your warning that you are buying a vehicle returned as a lemon.In addition, manufacturers must obtain certificate of titles for returned lemons that include the following disclosure:BUYBACK: THIS VEHICLE WAS RETURNED TO THE MANUFACTURER BECAUSE IT MAY NOT HAVE CONFORMED TO ITS WARRANTY.Do I Have the Same Protection as a New Car Buyer?A returned lemon buyer is NOT entitled to the same legal protection as a new car buyer. You are provided only with the fair warning notice and warranty protection described above.If an automaker or its authorized dealer sells a returned lemon as a used vehicle without giving you the notice and the warranty, it could be a violation of the Consumer Sales Practices Act. If this is the case, Attorney General Montgomery can file a legal action against the automaker or its dealer for a refund of the purchase price and seek a civil penalty. You also have the right to file your own lawsuit to recover your m
oney.Any vehicle returned to the automaker for a problem that could cause death or serious injury may not be sold in the State of Ohio.How Can I Protect Myself?If you buy a new vehicle, please take the following precautions just in case it turns out to be a lemon. It will cost you nothing if you do. It could cost you thousands if you don't.Your best protection is good record keeping and an accurate maintenance history.Keep all warranty and repair orders. Each order should contain a fully itemized list of repairs, show what the repairs cost, and include the length the car was in the shop. (Check every work order you receive to make sure it includes all the information, even if the work was done under warranty.Write down your vehicle's problems and defects. Give a copy of the list to the service person at the dealership. Any recurring problems should be described the same way each time you take the car back.File repair records in the order they were received. Your files also should contain copies of all documents, repair orders, receipts, and other written information you have used to explain the problem to the service person.Read and understand your owner's manual. Follow the maintenance requirements. If the manufacturer can show that you have not maintained your car properly, you might not be eligible for a refund or replacement.Where Can I Get More Information?If you would like additional information, please contact:The Attorney General's toll free Consumer Protection Line1-800-282-0515or writeThe Attorney General'sConsumer Protection Section30 E. Broad Street, 25th FloorColumbus, Ohio 43215Â3428

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:20 am

I don't lnow if any of us qualify for lemon law, mine has been in 4 times, and visits never exceeded a day, the problem isn't fixed- which is annoying but I don't think it would qualify. If you still want me to add it give me a way to phrase it in the last paragraph. You guys can start emailing me with contact info my email is csharrigan@mac.com.. Also, if you have links to other discussion forums discussing the issue, include them in the email and I will make a reference page. I will add contacts as I get them, and will post it to a pasword protected page, I will email you back the Username and password. Just so our info isn't accessible to the world. Then we will just have to decide how long to take names.... CH

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:22 am

I take that back, 3 times for the same problem does qualify-- didn't read well enough! score, how do you want it phrased?

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:06 am

Review letter, has been updated.

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Wed May 10, 2006 12:19 pm

no longer interested? everyone disappeared.

Flip-Side · Post by **Flip-Side** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:15 pm

In Michigan, I believe they must correct the problem on the third repair. My mom's Park Avenue had issues brand new back in 96'. After 3 trips to the dealer, my dad told them to take it back under "lemon law" or his lawyer would get involved. They took it back.

Mrizzle05 · Post by **Mrizzle05** » Thu May 11, 2006 2:04 am

Sorry CS been busy! i like the fact that we can consider it a lemon law... it could affect the safety if you really push it. or reliability. having to take it in numerous times and the annoyance of it taking long or not starting at all on the first try. ill re-read the letter agian. but i think using the lemon law would get some attention.

lkhan · Post by **lkhan** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:05 am

We should set a deadline for everyone to get their contact info in or else this could drag on.... would 2 weeks be enough time? What do you think?

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:17 am

2 Weeks it is, will be printed may 26th, get your contact info in. If people use other boards with and have contact with others please direct them to this post so we can get as many contacts as possible. thanks, ch

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:49 am

GET ADDEDhttp://web.mac.com/csharrigan/....html

Mrizzle05 · Post by **Mrizzle05** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:51 am

how do i add my contact info... i IMd you my info.

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:09 pm

IM sent.

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:13 am

We got four!

new05vibeowner · Post by **new05vibeowner** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:58 am

We only have four people?? This is our best chance to make something happen with this very annoying issue, so let's make our voices heard.In fact, my Vibe is going back into the dealer this week to address(again) this issue.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:59 am

how are the matrixes and corollas with the same powertrain doing on this, do they have similar problems?

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Thu May 18, 2006 6:49 am

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Thu May 18, 2006 12:38 pm

IM sent! Add me to the list please! I have had mine in for this issue without my CAI and I'll take it in again with my CAI... neither one had any effect on the hot soak starting issue.

krisf · Post by **krisf** » Thu May 18, 2006 7:23 pm

Where can I send my information to? Do you have an email?

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:23 am

Another week before it gets sent, anyone who wants to be on make sure your listed.http://web.mac.com/csharrigan/....html

jasonvibe · Post by **jasonvibe** » Sat May 20, 2006 6:42 am

Toyota changed the whole throttle control system in '05 on the 1zz. Some call it "drive by wire". If there is a cable from the accel pedal to a black box it is true "drive by wire". But in any case the change was made...but not on the AWD/4WD types. This is a an ECU and sensor issue. Something has changed and the system is flawed. My AWD has never cranked more than 2-3 seconds. Typically less than 2. I was wondering why I saw a few base '05's traded in. Now I know why. It appears back then(end of '05). They had not fixed it yet and owners gave up. I wish all well with this issue. Here we can lemon law it with some effort.

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Sat May 20, 2006 9:24 am

Still no effective fix. blah.

lkhan · Post by **lkhan** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:26 am

We have got to get more people on board... so many have complained on genvibe about this exact same issue! They probably aren't aware of this letter. Should be contact them and let them know it exists? This problem is so frustrating I can't imagine others not wanting to participate in bringing it to the attention of GM...

lkhan · Post by **lkhan** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:58 am

I did a quick once-over in the old threads and the following users have also complained about this problem. yuryvibebobjstant01ewakkojbyerleymicbarricdisco277binaryAppleBoy69PickIs there way to contact them all at once and let them know about the letter?

06salsa · Post by **06salsa** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:35 pm

Hey all,I have had the same problem with my new Vibe since day one. Apparently this affects all 05,06 Vibes with drive by wire. Add me to the list, and everyone who has this problem, GET ON THE LIST!!!!

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:02 am

I just wanted everyone know the letters were sent. Please post if you hear anything, I haven't yet.CH

siamsa · Post by **siamsa** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:44 pm

Wish I would have found this thread sooner I would have added my name to the list.

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:58 am

Still waiting just like everyone else... I'll post as soon as I hear anything.

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:49 pm

Still waiting, no response, I did find an email address for mark laneve, and sent it that method, I didn't get a mailer-daemon, so I will assume it was received.CH

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:04 am

I got a call today from someone at the General Motor's executive office regarding our letter, I am at work so I can't return call until tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted.CH

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:46 pm

Can't wait to see what they say!!!

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:17 am

Yes you can. Another lousy "we're going to start an engineering investigation," that has been the consistent response from General Motors since the first time my car was unsuccessfully diagnosed in September. The gentleman from the Executive office was unable to give any answers, and thanked us for bringing it to General Motors attention. The only feedback he was able to give was that we will be contacted when a recall/service bulletin is released.GRRRRR.. by the way, my car did it three times yesterday. I wish it just wouldn't start so they would be forced to find out whats wrong with it.Also, for those with a good mechanical knowledge, since it is nice out I have my windows down more, and have noticed when the vehicle is having difficulty starting I smell unburnt gas.CH

Toasted7 · Post by **Toasted7** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:25 pm

No luck with that at all... that sucks! Now that it is warmer out, my car has difficulty starting on a fairly regular basis (few times a week at least).I agree, I wish mine just wouldn't start... then they HAVE to fix that!

prathman · Post by **prathman** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:48 pm

Fortunately our '06 Vibe doesn't seem to have this problem.But I noticed that over at the Toyota Corolla forum (http://toyotanation.com/forum/f16) they're up to 44 pages of comments on the issue. A recent contribution from 'Falcon_1898' suggests a possible cause that sounds plausible:"The problem might be caused by a flawed design in the fuel injection system. The new Corolla's fuel injection rail has a closed end, i.e. it does not have a return loop like older models. This system is introduced because auto manufacturers have good fuel pressure regulator valves nowadays. It used to be a rail with a return loop (to the tank) because they used fuel flow control valves.What does all this have to do with anything? Think about what happens when you turn off the engine when it's hot. The injectors stop, the ignition stops, the engine stops, and the fuel flow stops. But since the engine is still hot, it may vaporize the fuel that's still sitting in the fuel rail. This creates a bubble of fuel vapor in the line, which in turn pushes the liquid fuel back into the tank.When you try to start it again, the engine has to huff and puff through all that lean fuel vapor before it can get to the dense liquid stuff. That's why it takes so long to start a warm engine.When the engine cools down completely, the vapour condenses, pressure drops, and liquid fuel is sucked back up into the rail. That's why we never have cold starting problems.When you turn your key to the ON position and wait for a while, the fuel pump starts working, and pumps liquid fuel into the rail again. That explains why leaving the key at the ON position for a moment helps reduce the start up times.I hope this makes sense, and Toyota can come up with something to eliminate this problem...maybe have something to insulate the fuel rail from the hot engine, or have something to cool the fuel rail, perhaps some fins."

csharrigan · Post by **csharrigan** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:42 am

As Paris Hilton would say, "That's hot," it must have changed mid-production or something because I have encountered a few people with 2006's that have the problem.Mine definately is much worse in the warmer weather, and unfortunately for me, I do a lot of short trips so I encounter the crummy start very often. Some people have seen improvement by leaving the key in the on position for a few seconds.... I have tried this religiously for 10sec. and no improvement.grrrrrrr.

New vibe won't start

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