Where's the beef?-CAI or SR, what are the REAL HP/Torque gains in terms of #'s

[lexicon]

Although I have seen many claim that adding a Cold Air Induction or Short Ram improves performance, What is the proof?Lets be honest, the gains , if any, are mainly increased Noise.Many Vendors claim % gains, or a certain # for HP or Torque increase, but how many of you have actually done a Before and After Dyno run?The only tangible gain that is measurable is before and after gas mileage. Has your gas mileage improved?Often, we hear more intake noise and THINK its associated with horsepower gains.Lets discuss.

[northvibe]

errr....not to bust your bubble...but they, companies like injen, do dyno's before and after the installation of their product, cai for example.Matrix XR / Vibe base model dynohttp://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpgMatrix XRS / Vibe GT dynohttp://www.injen.com/webpages/...5.jpg

[lexicon]

Thanks for puttin the meat on the table.What kind of improvement is made in the mpg area?(by the way, I am hungting for a Vibe right now, just doin my homework)Thanks

[P-Fernandez]

mpg gains if you drive under 3K RPM's.... could be 3 mpg i you drive over, i guess its basically the same

[AKLGT]

yes, CAI are PROVEN to increase HP and low end torque for NA engines. it's not a fib, a tale, or otherwise. if it weren't the case, then no one on here or any other forum would buy them and continually tell everyone about how much it increased their power or torque, not to mention post up dynos like Team Infidel/GormalVibe did here.i can speak from personal experience for myself and also many others including my husband (also a member here) that the increase in hp and tq is well worth the money, especially on non-aspirated (NA) engines. as for short rams vs CAI, that is an entirely different debate all together and usually boils down to personal preference. However, if you read through the Engine & Transmission Forum you will see that there are a few members here who are switching from SR to CAI like BlueCrush. as for any increase in fuel economy? well, that is going to depend on your driving. if you keep the car from high revs then sure it'll increase your mpg. this would be true for highway driving or long steady drives. however, for city driving, it'll probably decrease your fuel economy because that extra OOMPH is addicting. you'll be more prone to "step on it" than before! lol

[Cougar Vibe]

They may increase HP, they may increase MPG, but again...like every other cheap aftermarket gizmo ("The Tornado," spark plugs w/gimmicks, anything by K&N), why wouldn't car manufacturers put them on as a standard feature? They spends BILLIONS of dollars in design and engineering to increase fuel efficiency and massage power out of engines, so why not put cheap CAI's on at the factory? Doesn't make a lot sense, if these things do work, why they wouldn't use them. Look at small cars: GM, Ford and D/C can't make profits on them, but they sell them because it allows their large car and truck fleets to meet CAFE & EPA minimum standards. So, if they would install CAI and RAM on their more profitable vehicles, they wouldn't have to make so many money losing small cars and they'd have healthier profits.CAI & RAM products are relatively simple things to make...not a lot of rocket science there. The reason that Detroit ditched RAM induction in muscle cars was because of the EPA; they couldn't balance fuel economy, more power and low emissions. Computer-assisted managment has changed this, but not to the point where it works well enough for car manufacturers to use it. And I have no reason to believe that Injen or anyone else has produced a significant technological leap in CAI or RAM technology. If you want to shell out $200 for $10 worth of Home Depot parts and a cheesey sticker, go for it. Maybe it's a "conspiracy." Okay, now let the flaming begin.

[DiveNut]

They are loud. Most auto manufactures (and customers) prefer quieter vehicles. I happen to NOT be one of them!

[AKLGT]

if that reasoning were true, then why hasn't subaru of america slapped on an STI tuned tranny into my LGT? FROM the factory? or why would people then retune or add better parts, more robust to their vehicles?? because it's marketing. what do MOST people want? they want reliability and right now, gas mileage. they will sacrifice power for increased mileage or emissions (just look at the vibe GT/2zz progression from the 03 model to the 06!), they will go with lesser parts like the clutches on the 2zz's because they are adaquate for the average consumer. They are looking to sell a vehicle at a certain price range and that's it. some dealerships DO install intakes and performance parts for the customer at an additional cost. just like you can add OPTIONS to your vibe or any other vehicle, these dealerships are atleast smart enough to see there may be additional money to be made. Cougar, you are in WA, home of subie country. for example, you can purchase a brand new subaru from PDX Tuning in Portland, OR and then have them install, add, tune, etc whatever the heck you want. Same thing at COBB. Scion for example, markets to a younger crowd who are interested in "tuning" or personalizing their vehicle. that's who they want to buy their car! you can add all kinds of nifty things, including neons, pedals, body kits, etc from the factory! with the exception of high (i'm talking $100K+) end vehicles, you will always be able to find performance parts to make your vehicle BETTER than the ok vehicle the manufacturer puts out. it's not flaming, it's reality. everyone buys their vehicle for different purposes. manufacturers and marketing have to make something the masses will buy. then you can add, delete, or leave it alone to whatever your heart desires.

[Cougar Vibe]

Well, as far your tranny is concerned, the cost would be significantly higher to upgrade to the STI tuned tranny. It's a little different than the $10 worth of parts that make up a CAI/RAM. Consistant higher horsepower AND better MPG? For so little money? Again, car manufacturers spend BILLIONS on redesigns, on aerodynamic studies, on powerplant engineering...but they don't adopt this simple technology? Hmmm...My main problem with Injen and other manufacturers is that they do not acknowledge the negative affects of CAI's and RAM's. I'm willing to be that 99% of the people who put them on their cars, never run UOA's to see what effect they have on their engines. Go to Injen's to website, or any other maker for that matter, and try to find honest, unbiased information about the potential negative aspects of adding their product to your car. The stuff they're selling is not magic...it's a tradeoff. Repositioning the air intake from the top area of your engine to the bottom and/or front of your car means dirtier air gets into your engine. Now you can spend a lot of money of magic filters, reoiling systems, etc., hoping to slow the impact. But the nature of the location means your engine is sucking in more foreign material. And the only way you'll know what long-term damage is happening to it is to do a UOA.

[GMJAP]

Noob question. (I wasn't a car guy at all till I got the Vibe, and I still have a long way to go.... )If a K&N filter can increase HP and/or mileage a bit, and so can a CAI: Can they be used together to get additive gains? Is one exclusive of the other?Cougar Vibe: I appreciate your healthy skepticism. Even if the gains are real for a CAI (which I'm going to assume for my question ) it's hard for me to see the ROI at that price level. Help me out, though- What's a UAO?

[northvibe]

my take...so my opinion is a good filter should do its job. if you get like the TRD, injen or k&n your getting a good filter. Plus the location of it in our vibe is protected against straight on dirty air/dirt. if you get a cheap ebay cai or short ram the filter will not do its job properly and will allow things in. its all about the quality.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by Cougar Vibe »But the nature of the location means your engine is sucking in more foreign material.Water too, as we just unfortunately discovered! Personally, I'm a skeptic along with you. I think automakers are incredibly cheap, but they do spend lots of dough to figure out how to be incredibly cheap. If they could spend a couple bucks extra a car to make the car more appealing on paper compared to the competition AND boost their numbers in the big CAFE scheme of things so they can sell more gas guzzling SUV's, you bet they're gonna do that! But for some reason I'm not seeing any OEM CAI's out and about. I guess I'm just a wuss, I'll never put a CAI on my car, even the Vibe that I truly hate. The potential damage that can occur to the engine far outweighs any possible performance increase. It isn't worth it to me... Spend a couple hundred bucks for some "performance" - maybe just a few HP and a crapload of noise - and then turn around and spend several thousand on an engine? I know it doesn't happen to everybody who uses that stuff but with my luck, it WILL happen to me, so I'm avoiding that stuff like the plague.

[goodvibe]

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »Noob question. (I wasn't a car guy at all till I got the Vibe, and I still have a long way to go.... )If a K&N filter can increase HP and/or mileage a bit, and so can a CAI: Can they be used together to get additive gains? Is one exclusive of the other?Cougar Vibe: I appreciate your healthy skepticism. Even if the gains are real for a CAI (which I'm going to assume for my question ) it's hard for me to see the ROI at that price level. Help me out, though- What's a UAO? Used Oil Analysis. The filter normally used for after market intakes(oiled Gauze) don't filter as well as standard OEM type filters and the extra dirt shows up in used oil analysis as silicon with coresponding increases in wear metals. It varies by vehicle but the Hp gains from an intake will be traded for low end torque, noise and throttle response. Most cars make less power below 3k with intakes and I wouldn't believe the curves of CAI makers either. Here's a link to Unichip. http://www.unichip.us/vehicle_search_results1.asp It has curves of Matrix 1zz and 2zz with and without intakes (obviously with and withour the chip). Check the Blue (chipless) curves in the different configurations and you'll see what I'm taking about. If you're not a racer, you're better off without unless you like the strong sound that gives the impression of power. It's their dyno and the #s may not match another but the curves are fine for comparison to each other and the differences are pronounced enough not to argue about conditions over the few days they work on a given vehicle. If anything, it was a good day for the CAI. A peak gain of 10 hp a few more than you should expect in a 1zz.CAIs also run lean below full throttle and high RPM where engines tend to run rich normally. This is to keep the CAT cool and prevent knock. Counteracting this rich condition at peak power gives intakes as much power as the increased flow but can cause CELs and bogging or hesitation at lower RPM. If you get better mileage from a CAI, it's from running lean.After all that, in the right application, intakes can work and will give better high RPM drag race performance and in some cases gains across the board. These cars need the low end torque they lose a lot more than the high RPM HP they gain.

[Digger]

Quote, originally posted by Cougar Vibe »They may increase HP, they may increase MPG, but again...like every other cheap aftermarket gizmo ("The Tornado," spark plugs w/gimmicks, anything by K&N), why wouldn't car manufacturers put them on as a standard feature? They spends BILLIONS of dollars in design and engineering to increase fuel efficiency and massage power out of engines, so why not put cheap CAI's on at the factory? Doesn't make a lot sense, if these things do work, why they wouldn't use them. Look at small cars: GM, Ford and D/C can't make profits on them, but they sell them because it allows their large car and truck fleets to meet CAFE & EPA minimum standards. So, if they would install CAI and RAM on their more profitable vehicles, they wouldn't have to make so many money losing small cars and they'd have healthier profits.CAI & RAM products are relatively simple things to make...not a lot of rocket science there. The reason that Detroit ditched RAM induction in muscle cars was because of the EPA; they couldn't balance fuel economy, more power and low emissions. Computer-assisted managment has changed this, but not to the point where it works well enough for car manufacturers to use it. And I have no reason to believe that Injen or anyone else has produced a significant technological leap in CAI or RAM technology. If you want to shell out $200 for $10 worth of Home Depot parts and a cheesey sticker, go for it. Maybe it's a "conspiracy." Okay, now let the flaming begin. I can think of one reason. Warranty. We void it if we add the after market parts. There off the hook. 2) Our ( or any) car will last much longer if the engine is tuned to do half the work that it is capable of doing. 3) Politics. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours ( the unthinkable contracts that make everyone more $$ but aren't in every ones best interest)

[yippeekyaa]

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »my take...so my opinion is a good filter should do its job. if you get like the TRD, injen or k&n your getting a good filter. Plus the location of it in our vibe is protected against straight on dirty air/dirt. if you get a cheap ebay cai or short ram the filter will not do its job properly and will allow things in. its all about the quality.What proof do you offer that the filter that comes with a "cheap ebay short ram" will "not do its job properly"? Please offer resources to support your claim. I contend that if you want quality filtration a paper filter element has better filtration than any K&N, cosmo, boomz or any other aftermarker so called "performance" filter. And to support my statement i offer you this link.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...3.htmMy VGT has a boomz re. "cheap ebay short ram" with the filter that came with it. I have a K&N from a previous car that currently has over 200k miles on it. The K&N and the boomz filter are exactly the same size, construction and quality. When i say exact i mean precisely exact. Same number of pleats, mesh is same size shape and quantity, sizes are exact and i put a caliper to them to compare. The only difference i could make note of was the boomz was blue vs. the K&N's red color, and the boomz filter was not preoiled from the factory. To add insult to injury the K&N was purchased in 1996, the boomz in 2006.*disclamer: I do not work for any of the above mentioned filter manufacturers, nor do i care what filter you choose to install in your car. I'm just a penny pinching hard working slob that can't see spending 250 bucks on something that i can buy for 35 when the difference between the choices are not worth the extra money for my uses of the car. If i wanted to go faster i'd simply buy a faster car and not worry about modest upgrades*

[goodvibe]

The cheap ones can work just as well. They're just 4 layres of gauze and if they're physically strong enough with the same surface area it shouldn't make a lick of difference. In some apps the gauze filters don't show enough more dirt injestion to cause any meaningful difference in wear for as long as most of us own our cars but why bother. AEM makes a dry filter that does it's job better and doesn't use oil so the MAF stays clean. You seemed to have an intake for the right reason. You think it's cool and are not making claims about more power all the time.

[MassiveOverkill]

I'm using the AEM filter on my Cosmo CAI. The AEM is the best of both worlds: Re-usable, high efficiency filtration, no oiling, and flows as good or better than the stock filter. If you think about it, the CAI makes your intake tract longer than stock...........longer intake tracts tend to increase torque. Now that effect may or may not be offset by the larger diameter tubing.I've lost maybe 1, max 2 MPG from the install of my CAI, so yes, that's proof right there I'm probably making more power (and no, it's not from a lead foot from trying to take advantage of it). I'm happy with my purchase because I wanted more passing power, not more off-the-line power. When I'm getting ready to merge onto the highway or getting ready to pass, when I hit the gas, I'm already at 3K RPMs or beyond, which is where my CAI gives me the power I need. I don't care about getting off the line quicker only to have to hit the brakes at the next stop light 5 seconds later, although the rare few times I've done this, my engine seemed to take off just fine. As far as manufacturers not installing these type of intakes on productions models as justifcation for them not working. That's complete BS. Marketing has a big play on what gets implemented into cars. Most people don't like loud sound of an aftermarket intake. There's also the possiblity of hydrolock (although rare). Then there are EPA estimates and so on. Just because the manufacturer doesn't implement it, doesn't make a product un-credible. Likewise, there is a lot of snake-oil out there.

[goodvibe]

Sounds about right. People need to know what they're getting beyond the hype.

[cknight725]

Quote, originally posted by Cougar Vibe »My main problem with Injen and other manufacturers is that they do not acknowledge the negative affects of CAI's and RAM's. I'm willing to be that 99% of the people who put them on their cars, never run UOA's to see what effect they have on their engines. Go to Injen's to website, or any other maker for that matter, and try to find honest, unbiased information about the potential negative aspects of adding their product to your car. The stuff they're selling is not magic...it's a tradeoff. Repositioning the air intake from the top area of your engine to the bottom and/or front of your car means dirtier air gets into your engine. Now you can spend a lot of money of magic filters, reoiling systems, etc., hoping to slow the impact. But the nature of the location means your engine is sucking in more foreign material. And the only way you'll know what long-term damage is happening to it is to do a UOA. Sure they do -- CAIs come with much more robust filtration than paper mesh you will find on stock vehicles. What about the short ram? How is that a tradeoff -- from a mechanical standpoint?The main reason manufacturers don't do CAIs is threefold - Noise, Cost, EPA - with Cost being the major driver. Metal tubes resonate intake pulses more and make more noise. Metal tubes with welded fittings cost much more to make than plastic boxes with rubber hoses. Air filters inside boxes reduce the amount of fuel fumes that can escape the engine because the fuel condensates inside the box and is sucked back down the intake. There are rare occasions (very rare in my experience) that the stock intake outperforms an aftermarket CAI/SR. I read an article once about some Subie - it think it was a 2.5RS -- where a tuner did indeed install a CAI and realized a performance drop. Turned out on that that the engineers designed the stock intake with a pressure chamber or something to smooth the intake pulses. They made mods to the fuel map and got around that problem. The other major complaints about CAI/SR setups come from Check Engine errors sourced from the MAF when more air volume is detected than the computer expects. That is easily resolved by reprogramming the ROM or upgrading to a performance chip. In my opinion those problems are caused by dimwitted engineers programming upper limits into the system that should not even be there.

[Psychobroker]

Quote, originally posted by Cougar Vibe »They may increase HP, they may increase MPG, but again...like every other cheap aftermarket gizmo ("The Tornado," spark plugs w/gimmicks, anything by K&N), why wouldn't car manufacturers put them on as a standard feature? They spends BILLIONS of dollars in design and engineering to increase fuel efficiency and massage power out of engines, so why not put cheap CAI's on at the factory? Doesn't make a lot sense, if these things do work, why they wouldn't use them. Look at small cars: GM, Ford and D/C can't make profits on them, but they sell them because it allows their large car and truck fleets to meet CAFE & EPA minimum standards. So, if they would install CAI and RAM on their more profitable vehicles, they wouldn't have to make so many money losing small cars and they'd have healthier profits.CAI & RAM products are relatively simple things to make...not a lot of rocket science there. The reason that Detroit ditched RAM induction in muscle cars was because of the EPA; they couldn't balance fuel economy, more power and low emissions. Computer-assisted managment has changed this, but not to the point where it works well enough for car manufacturers to use it. And I have no reason to believe that Injen or anyone else has produced a significant technological leap in CAI or RAM technology. If you want to shell out $200 for $10 worth of Home Depot parts and a cheesey sticker, go for it. Maybe it's a "conspiracy." Okay, now let the flaming begin. One word: hydrolock

[northvibe]

yea car manufactures like stock snorkles so they can drive in water....