tapping noise during cold acceleration

[ramenboy...]

i hope the title says it all...i've noticed since it got colder here, i hear a tapping noise when i accelerate. but its gone once the engine is at its regular temp. any ideas?happy holidays, by the way.

[ColonelPanic]

Ramenboy, welcome to the Dysfunctional Cold Weather Vibe Engine club... What engine do you have, btw? (1zz here.) I believe you have perfectly described the same exact noise that I've been *****ing about for well over a year now with my car. Mine has become worse over time - it started out as a bit of a tick, but now it is more of a knock, thus spawning the name of my car, Sir Knocksalot. It used to occur only when it was below 30, or possibly 40 degrees, but now it will start to knock/tick/rattle/etc. at a cold start all the way up to around 50 degrees, so the problem has certainly worsened. But it's always the same deal, start the engine up when the engine and air temperature is cold and when you accelerate, the engine makes a lot of that ticking/knocking/etc... Eventually, once the engine warms up, the thing finally shuts up. But there for a while, it has me thinking something will go shooting up through the hood or through the oil pan, my engine really sounds like it is trying to tear itself apart when I try to drive it when the engine is cold. I have a long thread full of ranting and raving about this but not much useful information here. I invite you to check out this mp3 I recorded of the engine being started and revved when cold as well as warm to compare and contrast... The noise is significantly different. Check that out and see if it resembles what yours sounds like.No known fix for it, or at least that's what my dealer seems to think. They had the car for several days last year but came back with "valve train noise, that's normal." But to this day, I still don't buy that "normal" diagnosis crap, as we don't seem to have many coming here to complain about their engine making a ton of noise when it is cold... And while I don't have stats to back it up, it seems to me like we have far more members who live in areas where it is colder than we have that live where it is warmer... So, if this happens to every vehicle, man we've got a bunch of folks around who are inattentive as hell! Stop neglecting your Vibes already, people! lol! Serioulsy, I'm so much more inclined to believe that there are problems with a few of them instead...Wish I had an answer for you, as that would mean I would have an answer for me - and that's something I've been wanting for quite some time now.

[ramenboy...]

thanks CPyeah i've followed your woes for a while!!!! definitely sounds like what i've got. last year, no noise. this year a little noise. hopefully it stays like that (knock on wood or vinyl or whatever). i've got an 04 base vibeanyways, maybe i'll have to resort to the stuff that my dad used to use in his old buick....motor honey.... supposed to be a cure for everything

[Pick]

I'd put in 5w-30 Mobil 1 if you don't have it in already. You need a thin motor oil for winter, sounds like it's not being lubed properly until the oil gets warmer/thinner.

[ramenboy...]

thanx eric, got the oil changed a couple weeks ago. i'l check the receipt and see what they put in

[jasonvibe]

OR you have a valve that is in need of adjustment. As the valves heat the clearances tighten up...noise dissappears. But you are hammering your cam(s). The only problem is a Pontiac dealer has no idea of how to adjust them. The cams must be removed once the offending valve is found. Plus the dealer must have the shims. To attempt warranty>Find a dealer that sells both Pontiac and Toyota. We have a few here. Plus that is a warranty item if under 36k. I have suggested that CP push the point. But once past 60k(the recommend valve check time). He has no recourse. If you are under 36k. I suggest you go to a Toy/Pont. Dealer. It would be an assembly issue>warranty. They must have set that "one" very loose from the start.

[csharrigan]

Dudeeeee... I don't notice it in my car or in my friend's 1zz in celica and corolla, (we all use synthetic), my other friend that just uses cheapest 5w30 on the shelf knocks/taps like crazy when its first started in the cold.... I think the "real" oil is too thick when <30F and not making its way to the top of the engine creating the chatter... I can't be for sure though.

[ColonelPanic]

I thought of trying synthetic to help with the noise... I tried Mobil1 5W30 for one change but it did nothing to improve my nasty noisy engine... Went back to 5W30 Pennzoil and noticed no difference between syn or dino. Glad that worked for somebody though...

[ramenboy...]

hey thanx, jayi'm at just over 58k miles. right now. i'll mention it to the dealer when i bring it in for 60kwhy do you say pontiac dealers don't know how to adjust the valve?CP, how miles on your vibe?

[ColonelPanic]

I just hit 64,000 on mine but the noise cropped up somewhere around the 30,000 range. I think I was close to 40,000 when the dealer checked it out.

[theangrydwarf1]

Quote, originally posted by ramenboy... »why do you say pontiac dealers don't know how to adjust the valve?The process is called lashing, on some cars made in Japan, they use a set up where the valves have shims between the valve and the cam. Most Pontiac dealers probably wont know how to lash the engine, so it would be best to take it to Toyota or a shop that deals in Japanese vehicles. I'm at the point where I should get it done, but I may have to wait depending on how much they charge for it.

[ColonelPanic]

I don't know of a single soul around here thus far who has had this done! I'm hoping I missed somebody saying that they did. If I have, speak up and give us the details! I've always wanted to know what the cost was with this... I've seen the section of the matrix shop manual that pertains to this, and it looks rough.

[ramenboy...]

yeah...my sentiments exactly. if it has to get done, how the f----in much does it cost?!?!!?until then, i'm warmin up the car

[jasonvibe]

Okay, I will explain....these engines basically follow a motorcycle design of DOHC(dual over-head cams). In MOST 'cycles the cams need to be remove for valves clearance adjustments, same with your 1ZZ engine. Most are clueless to this. As you can see from the replies. It is easy for anyone to check the valves. BUT the engine must be ice cold...not run for 8 hours. Reason a Toyota dealer is best is because this design has been around in Toyota engines since the late 80's- early 90's. The Pontiac guys have only seen these since 2003. How many Pont. dealers do you think have done this adjustment? I'd say close to zero. I know I can do it myself if I had the parts. But ticking at 30k is not the norm. But since these engines are now being assembled in W.Virginia, anything is possible. I do not know the time it would take(or be charged) for this. BUT, figure a max of 6 hours. FIND a Toy/Pont dealer who says they know how to do this and , have buckets(shims) stocked and have done it many times. Anyone says they never need adjustment should be shocked with a cattle prod, till they read the manual! My Bro's Corolla has 145k on it. He has done it every 60k. He does not remember the cost. The 1ZZ uses different "buckets", 2zz replaces shims(cams stay). 1ZZ IS A TOYOTA ENGINE! 2ZZ is a Yamaha engine built by Toyota. 1ZZ has been around since '98. Parts needed are valve cover gasket, the appropriate shims/buckets and maybe a tensioner gasket, that's all. I say find a Toy/Pont dealer simply if you want to attempt warranty. CP has been living with something that is curable. His dealer must just plain SUCK! The noise has nothing to do with oil not getting to the top of the engine!!!

[theangrydwarf1]

If the shims are not replaced and they go out of spec too much, you will have more serious problems, like broken valves or damaged pistons. Something I would like to avoid. I think I will call around and see how much they charge to do it.

[dbuzzelli]

I have the same issue. like a knocking sound, especially when the weather is very cold. but when the car warms up a bit, it disapears.I put synthetic amsoil 5w-30 in, and noticed it helps. my thought was with the temp outside being so cold, the oil visocity was real thick until the engine warmed it up.the amsoil has a pourable flow temperature of -50 f, so the extreme cold conditions dont affect the oil on a cold startup. The mobil 1 also has a low pourable temperature.

[ColonelPanic]

*sigh* I think you do have a point there! Seeing how bad mine sounds and as long as it has been doing it, something is pretty far out of whack and it probably shouldn't be ignored. What's funny though, when this problem first cropped up, I went over to question those jacknads at the "frendly" local Toyota dealer about getting this done. They swore up and down the NEVER, EVER do this. "Ain't no way to adjust the valves, so I just saved you a bunch of money there!" So much for Toyota actually knowing how to work on their own crap. They're fricken morons there anyway and treat their customers like they're pieces of crap... There is a Pontiac slash Toyota dealer about 45 miles away but separate garages and probably separate mechanics. Maybe at least they can bring somebody over or share tactics on doing this stuff. Hopefully the shims and all that other stuff they need, they could bring over from the Toyota side, I dunno how things work when you have a dealer such as that and want to bring over inventory...Toyota, what the hell is wrong with good ol' hydraulic lifters anyway? I guess I'll check around and see what they want for this service.......

[ramenboy...]

hey cpi kinda went through the same thing. i left work today, and decided to call the toyota dealer near there. i told the service manager that i was coming up on 60k, and wanted to know how much it would be to check and adjust the valves. first the guy had N0 IDEA that the vibe and matrix were the same car. hmmm... maybe a red flag. but once he talked to his technicians, he said it might cost around $260 or so. and said in the morning when i start the car, to listen to the engine. if it makes any noise, then they'll take a look. i told him about the noise during cold acceleration, and he also gave the schpiel about thicker oil making its way through the engine, blah blah blah. he did though, finally say if it had to be done, using the shims and stuff, and a new gasket, etc, it would be, like i said, around $260 then i called the pontiac dealer just to find out how much a 60k tune up would be, and he said around $400.jeez. oh well

[jasonvibe]

$260 is an excellent price for all possible work. But be sure if it includes adjustment. As the cams must be removed, buckets changed, clearances rechecked, etc. Do you know their hourly rate? Here they get $75 - $85/hr. YES, it must be checked. NO engine with solid lifters can live without an adjustment. But once set, it often goes for twice the mileage as the first. Just to clarify. If you look at a service manual for a 1zz(on line). The whole bucket gets changed out. These sit over the entire valve spring/stem. These are not shims. Some people call them shims because in other designs with buckets. Hardened shims sit above or below the bucket....aka motorcycle. The noise of a loose clearance will not do big damage to a valve. But will hurt the cam since the valve is not being opened smoothly. Too tight is worse...then valves burn or crash into pistons. I just hope I can go near 50k before I need it done. JUST remember, these are not pushrod engines, "the noise" has nothing to do with oil not pumping to the top end. The buckets and cam lobes sit in a puddle of oil at ALL times. To whom it may concern> It takes less than 5 seconds for the oil to pump to the top. I want you guys to get the most out of these cars....

[ColonelPanic]

The more I hear about this, the more I think I am hearing "you shouldn't dork around and neglect this repair!" I'm surprised something hasn't blown up yet, it's had 30-something thousand miles to do so...Thanks for all your input into this, jasonvibe...

[ramenboy...]

yup...now i just need the dough to schedule it. i'll keep you guys posted. BUT if anyone gets to this on their car before me, i'll expect the same!hope everyone had a great new years.

[goodvibe]

If it's a problem that started right after an oil change, it could just be a stck bypass valve on the oil filter. It's not that uncommon. The oil doesn't flow well through the media until warm and a stuck bypass restricts cold oil flow. It seems that in most cases here that wouldn't apply but it might be worth spinning on a new filter and adding a bit of oil to check. If the valves need adjustment, the noise should be there when warm also.

[jasonvibe]

"when warm",Not always true. When the valves heat up. They lengthen. And may take up enough clearance for things to be quieter... On my 'cycles it would show up as the oil heats and thins. But this is because the valves are not long and thus the clearances are less than half of these cars. So hot and cold clearances are not terribly different.

[Blue Goose]

Maybe not the same thing here but my 1.8 1zz(Matrix) sounds like a diesel at times...very fast paced ticking while accelerating whether hot or cold...by product of the engine or is this something bad?You know...like you have a baseball card in the spokes of your bike?Is this the valves or injectors making this noise?

[jasonvibe]

likely the valve clearance is out of spec. BUT, how many miles are on it. If it is under 35k, I would attempt a free valve adjust by the dealer. At least the better Toyota dealers know how to do it. It even says in the manual, this only needs to be checked @ 48mos. or 60k.

[ramenboy...]

yup...still planning on this work, but still smartin from the holidays. anyone else above 60k get this done?

[ColonelPanic]

Alrighty, I had some time to kill today so I stopped by a Toyota dealer that I haven't really asked any questions before...*CP switches into defensive mode because of what's happened previously with Toyota people* CP: Yeah, I have this '03 Pontiac Vibe, with that TOYOTA 1ZZ engine and it is in need of a valve adjustment. The manual calls for it at 60,000 miles.Toyota guy: What did you say you had? A Prizm?CP: No, a Vibe. Same engine as.... *gets cut off*Toyota guy: *switches into defensive mode because he's probably had plenty of pissed off Vibe/Prizm owners coming to him. * Oh, the Vibe - yes, replaced the Prizm. Starts rambling on about the joint venture stuff, Toyota mechanicals, made in California, blah blah blah. CP's jaw hits the floor because good god, it isn't every day that a Toyota person would admit that their beloved company would have anything to do with the lowly, scuzzbucket GM. The toyota guy states that he sees Corollas/etc in there with 70/80,000+ and they've never done this adjustment and wasn't sure why I was there asking them about one. So, I figured this was going to turn into another incident like the other dealer where they swore up and down they'd NEVER have to do this and that they were doing me a favor by telling me it wasn't necessary... But he was more than willing to jump on the horn and run a question by somebody on this issue to make sure... "Valve adjustments on a 2003 Matrix with a 1ZZ?" he asked. Damn, that sounds like the crap we have to pull to get answers. I heard someone on the other end say "only if they're noisy." Gee, they're familiar with that? So he gets off the phone and gives me the news, "only if you're getting a lot of clatter." I told him that clunker has been a'clatterin' for quite some time now (dang, it's been doing this for 30K now.) He could pencil me in for Saturday for the low, low price of......$399.95 + TAX! Uhh, no thanks. The service manager guy said I would be his first for this! How special is that?

[ramenboy...]

hey cp...yow! like i said in my earlier post, i had an estimate of around $260. hope that price is still good. still haven't taken the vibe in. so it seems you and/or i would be the first ones to have this done. no one else has mentioned it.

[Blue Goose]

Any updates on this? My Matrix has seemed to have gotten that card in the bike wheel spokes sound again. Seems to be loudest when leaving from a stop sign etcI really didn't hear it in a friends Matrix...I thought I had this noise before and it went away when I changed the oil a couple of OIC's ago...I just did an OIC last week and the noise is still there...Funny thing is that this noise still stays no matter how warm or cold the car is..in fact it is harder to hear when the car is cold! Any ideas on that one?Like I said...leaving a stop sign it gives a clacking noise or a noise that sounds like a tiny hammer pounding on metal about a 100 beats a second....is this the timing chain making that noise? Maybe not valve related? Hear it crawling around in traffic also..not just idling...only hear it when giving the car gas????Jason?

[ramenboy...]

hey goosenone that i know of. any word of this on matrix sites?

[dog paw]

Goose if your sure the noise is under the hood you might take a look at the belt tensioner before you dig into the engine. I have seen a couple that have made a metallic fluttering sound on takeoff or a throttle snap. NOW for all you dealer bashers... A few of us DO know a couple things about the cars we service. If its so easy to adjust them give it a shot and let me know if you would do it again for 200 bucks plus the $20 per shim There are tools to remove the shims without removing cams. I find almost as easy to remove the cams. My best advice is to leave them alone. We have virgin engines with 150k come in that sound as good as new. Alot of the stuff I have read hear sounds a lot worse that the worst Vibe engine I have ever heard..