New TSB on Hot Soak Starting Issue for Vibe!

[new05vibeowner]

Just came from the dealer, who let me know that there is a new TSB (12/12/05) on the hot soak starting issue for the Vibe. Because of this, I'm getting the PCM in my '05 replaced complements of GM.The TSB number is #05-06-04-074. It's been frustrating to see the TSB for the Matrix but not the Vibe. Hurray!

[joholste]

what is Hot Soak Starting??

[AndyLT1]

I'm assuming it is a problem with starting the engine when it is still hot from a previous trip. Do the '06's have this issue too? I'm picking mine up next week.

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by new05vibeowner »Just came from the dealer, who let me know that there is a new TSB (12/12/05) on the hot soak starting issue for the Vibe. Because of this, I'm getting the PCM in my '05 replaced complements of GM.The TSB number is #05-06-04-074. It's been frustrating to see the TSB for the Matrix but not the Vibe. Hurray!Thanks for posting that! Good news.

[csharrigan]

I AM SOOOOO HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats the best Christmas present ever! I am so sick of "not having," a problem.Chris

[csharrigan]

On second thought, does anyone have access to the TSB? I wonder if the bulletin states "random, not reproducible," if it doesn't and the dealership continues to try and reproduce, I am gonna pop a vessel.

[Toasted7]

It better cover it or I'll be right there with ya and pop a vessel over this problem.

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by new05vibeowner »Just came from the dealer, who let me know that there is a new TSB (12/12/05) on the hot soak starting issue for the Vibe. Because of this, I'm getting the PCM in my '05 replaced complements of GM. Hurray!So I take it you had this "starting problem" with your '05 Vibe?

[new05vibeowner]

Yes, I have this problem since day 1. It torques me that Toyota had a TSB out on this very problem months ago, and Pontiac took its time in offering relief to Vibe owners. Nothing like having a new car which seemed to decide on its own when it would start. The PCM is on order and should take care of the problem of having to crank it 8-10 seconds (which I'm sure doesn't make the starter last as long).It will be interesting to see down the road if starters going bad become an issue for us Vibe owners.......

[micbarric]

Please don't blame Pontiac (yet) for the TSB issue. We do not know what happens between Toyota and GM in a situation like this. Also, Toyota appears to have had difficulty coming up with a fix for this, issuing more than one TSB trying to solve the problem. Over at toyotanation.com there is a forty page thread on this very same starting problem:http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15

[new05vibeowner]

Of course, you're right. I'll withhold final opinion until my new PCM is installed to see if the TSB fixes the problem.

[AppleBoy69]

So .... the PCM is the computer modual correct?Cause last week they ordered one for my vibe for the no start / extended crank issue with my 2005 Vibe!Hopefully this is the Service Bulletion that the serive guy at my dealership was refering too!

[new05vibeowner]

Yes, PCM is short for Powertrain Control Module.

[binary]

Quote, originally posted by new05vibeowner »Just came from the dealer, who let me know that there is a new TSB (12/12/05) on the hot soak starting issue for the Vibe. Because of this, I'm getting the PCM in my '05 replaced complements of GM.The TSB number is #05-06-04-074. It's been frustrating to see the TSB for the Matrix but not the Vibe. Hurray!Score one for the newbie! Thank you! I'm also sick of not having a problem, this is good news.

[AppleBoy69]

OK ... so this was the first thing that Toyota tried followed by the fuel pump followed by restting codes for it in the PCM.So do you really think this is gonna work?

[AppleBoy69]

Hey everyone!Got the new PCM in stalled on friday morning. Though it was all great then i went to start my car and guess what ... it started doing it again. Well kinda ... It starts faster now but its almost like it partial catches and just can't get enough gas then it starts. VERY VERY anoying!!!Its really sad when its been over a year and they still can't fix this problem. Back to the dealership i go again!Sorry to dissappoint everyone!

[Toasted7]

Didn't fix it?!? That is discouraging... I'm taking my car to the shop in the morning, will see what they say about it (for the third time for the same problem).

[Toasted7]

My Vibe is currently in the shop and has been since yesterday and I just got a call from the dealer and they said they can not duplicate the problem so they don't know how to fix it. I let them know there is a TSB for that EXACT problem and it appears they will still do nothing about it. I am going to pickup my car tonight after work and I will see what I can find out then. So far, this is not looking very good. grrrrrr!

[ColonelPanic]

Man, that sucks! Nothing sucks more than "unable to duplicate" / "no problems found" / "condition is normal" / whatever bogus answer they try to give you when you know it isn't! I feel your pain... But just look at it this way, you're probably getting pretty close to being able to go through the lemon law process since this is the umpteenth time you've been in the shop for this problem and they have yet to fix it.

[Toasted7]

Well I went and picked up the car... "unable to duplicate" is the reason they said they can't fix what is not broken (or at least they can't tell it's broken). I let them know in advance of the TSB and they still said they can't do anything for me till they can reproduce the problem. I told them it was an intermittant issue... but it hasn't worked yet. I think that CP's problems might be rubbing off on my Vibe

[ColonelPanic]

It's gotta be that armrest you got from me. I thought it would be safe, I'm so sorry! I do hate to hear the news, man. Sounds like the same crap the dealer put me through with the fart smell...

[BigMac]

Will this apply to us owners in Canada? I'm assuming it will, I'll see what the dealership says about it.

[Pick]

Well if they're going to make us replicate the problem before they replace i'll never get it done. It only gives the starting problem about once a week and i'm not leaving my car with them for that long and hope they can replicate it.

[Mavrik]

well unfortunatly a TBS is for techs to help them out in repairs of your vehicle "if" your car shares that concern and the dealership can verify it. Its not just frustrating to the owners to get their car to act up for the dealership... its also frustrating on the service department who has to say "sorry... could not duplicate at this time." I know my Vibe has done this maybe 3-4 times in the past 2 years I have owned it. I'll never get it to happen for a dealership either and I'm not to concerned about it right now.Warranty and TBS cover proven concerns only.

[csharrigan]

Of course--- Only toyota would put "intermittant, not reproducible" in their service bulletin, Frustrating, because I can't find a way to reproduce it-- I can't wait to battle it out (sarcasm), Toasted, I would call the customer support number in the manual if they don't solve your problem, thats what I will be doing if mine isnt fixed.

[new05vibeowner]

I'd take it to another Pontiac shop and insist that they replace the PCM. Had mine replaced, problem is FINALLY GONE!Your dealership stands to lose a good customer (you) over something which won't cost them a dime. Doesn't make sense, does it?

[Mavrik]

Quote, originally posted by new05vibeowner »I'd take it to another Pontiac shop and insist that they replace the PCM. Had mine replaced, problem is FINALLY GONE!Your dealership stands to lose a good customer (you) over something which won't cost them a dime. Doesn't make sense, does it?funny how thats the general impression but actually there is more to it then that. And I don't mean to be rude. But dealerships make very little when doing warranty work. Sure it costs you nothing. But it can cost them. GM pays them to do the repair and usually at invoice "warranty" prices for parts. As far as labour, they pay very little there as well. Its easy to assume as a customer that the dealership just does not want to work with you, or that warranty costs them nothing to do. GM only pays a dealership to do a repair should the reason be convincing and an actual fault be found. GM requires all failed parts sent back to them. They can review and deny a claim at any time should they find cause to. If your having an intermit concern... but every time the dealership looks at it, it doesn't act up. Then there is NO proof a problem exists and no reason for GM to pay them to fix your car. Now most TBS allow for "intermit experiences of this concern" to approve the repair. But that doesn't mean they can just replace any parts under a TBS without some proof that its experiencing the concern. Its a TBS... its to aid techs in fixing your car. Its not a recall.And GM isn't the only one like this, ALL car manufactures work in this manner. For example, Subaru who I work for now (used to work for GM) won't even cover diag costs on intermit concerns if no problems are found. Its all Customer Pay until proved otherwise.

[new05vibeowner]

I assume that GM, like the company I sell for (a Fortune 100 supplier of automotive interiors, among other business lines), has both the ability and desire to satisfy their customers. If I, as a customer, have an issue with a product, it is the obligation of the supplier (or manufacturer) to attempt to make me happy and do what it takes to make the problem go away. Companies who have failed to make customers happy generally go out of business after a period of time due to a lack of sales.The proof of this hot soak problem is the fact that this issue has been well-documented on this site, as well as a whole bunch of P.O.'d Vibe as well as Matrix owners.Suburu will not reimburse a dealer to diagnose a vehicle under warranty if no issue is found due to it being intermittent?? They actually stick the dealer with eating the cost? Hard to believe, but true, as you say. By the way, I didn't think you were being rude. It's interesting to get the other side of the story from an insider well versed in the ins and outs of warranty work. Thanks for your perspective.

[Toasted7]

All I am asking for is to get the problem fixed... without having to put up much of a fuss about it. I figured since the TSB is out for the exact problem and I have had my car in the shop for it previously (before the TSB for the same issue) that they would, at the least, go ahead and replace the PCM.I appreciate getting info from an insider in the warranty issues... that is good to be able to see it from a different point of view. Makes me think twice about going out to my dealer and chewing someone out for not fixing my car... although, it may come down to that. All I want is a car that will start reliably.

[Mavrik]

well some dealers can be to blame for not looking hard enough or getting into the "Well GM doesn't pay me much to check this so if I don't see something right away then I'm parking this back outside." Lots of techs can get that attitude and why not lol, their livelyhood depends on the money they make being paid to work on something. But most dealerships do value you as a customer and will do what they can to keep you happy. Sure you don't buy the car from service but they are well aware that your experience there determines if you buy another from the sales guys.But sometimes dealerships have their hands tied by the manufacture as far as what they can do for you. And yeah, for any service people here who know the language, Subaru doesn't have warranty failure codes for diag concerns with no faults found.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik »well some dealers can be to blame for not looking hard enough or getting into the "Well GM doesn't pay me much to check this so if I don't see something right away then I'm parking this back outside." Lots of techs can get that attitude and why not lol, their livelyhood depends on the money they make being paid to work on something. What I really don't understand here is, wouldn't they welcome the business? What is going to bring the dealership more money? Taking a big crap all over your customers so you tick them off and they leave, and the dealer never sees another penny from them ever again, or... Doing warranty work and getting reimbursed from the manufacturer for said warranty work? Last I checked, an empty service bay doesn't bring any cash into the shop, but something occupying that service bay will, regardless of who pays for it. Just my $0.02 from a disgruntled customer who has had somewhere over $6K worth of new parts put on his car. I've seen this time and time again...

[Mavrik]

Imagine Mr Panic your a Mr Goodwrench. You come in to work on monday morning at 7:30 and there is a Vibe with an intermit no start. So out you go to the car and it starts right up. So you figure you'll bring it inside, check a few things... Next thing you know, an hour has gone by. You've found nothing. Warm or cold... the Vibe starts just fine, there are no codes in the computer. Nothing electrical or mechanical can be proven to cause an issue. But the customer insists there is a problem so with pressure from your service advisor, you take it for a test drive, you spend more time double checking and trying to get it to act up. You have called tachline, they don't have much and you waste a lot of time on the phone. Your morning is almost over at this point when a TBS comes across your bench. "SWEET!" you say. It describes what the customer has been describing but you have not been able to prove. You get approval from the service manager and perform the service the TBS says could help you. Its now after lunch... You have spent 6 hours on this car... But guess what... at most GM will pay 2 hours for the job... that includes diagnostic time and repairs. Basicly you just worked 4 hours for free. Your not being paid for it. As a tech you get paid by the job, not by how long it took you to do it. Now does that explain why techs hate warranty work. Also while you spent 6 hours on that Vibe, you were unavailable to do customer pay work which is what makes the dealership money. 6 hours worth of profit and you couldn't make it. Warranty work performed by dealerships is carefully monitored. The goal of each shop is to have the lowest warranty work performed as possible. The area reps get after them if they are doing to much. Sure a dealership can not turn you away because of a warranty concern. But if there is any reason it should not be warranty... they are here to make money just like you are when you get up in the morning and go to work. but we're way off topic now lol

[AppleBoy69]

This is what im gonna do .... cause the problem is better then it was with the last PCM but still has starting issues, im gonna leave my digital camera in my car and turn it to movie mode every time i start my car .... eventually i will get it on camera and I will save it on a disc so they can see the problem happening with their own eyes!Pretty dam good idea don't yah think?!?!?!

[ColonelPanic]

That's a good plan. Reproduce this, Mr. Goodwrench! Hey, don't they make data recorders customers can borrow and keep in the car, with them to keep track of when this "intermittent" crap happens? Or did I just dream that up? Swear I've heard of such a thing. Maybe that would help somebody out there get a clue, if something took a snapshot of everything right when the car wouldn't start?

[Mavrik]

Most dealerships do. But as long as they will lend one out for a week and the customer needs to leave it on all the time.

[AppleBoy69]

Actually ...I think my car is fixed. The new pcm is now doing the trick. I though it wasn't at first but the more I drive my car the better it seems to start.So maybe they actually fixed the problem! Yey for GM! At least it cost them less to fix it then it did with 3 TBS that toyota issued.

[gnnr]

REmember that the PCM are learning computers in part. A new or flashed PCM will adjust itself in many ways to the driver, the conditions, and the actual setup and performance of the drive train itself. It's not fully addaptive but it does learn quite a bit and adjust itself over time (very variable as to what the time frame is).As for dealing with the Dealer repair and the TSB... print out the TSB and take it with you (there is a website out there that lists all TSBs and their contents) and let them know up front that it is intermittent but that you expect them to carry through with the TSB and will contact GM customer care if they don't. Seems unduly harsh, but it lets them know that you aren't dorking around and know what is wrong with the car and expect it fixed, plus having that TSB to give them lets them jump forward on the repair as many techs don't look to the TSB listings first, rather they do a general diag and dump of the error codes (which is no good for intermitten problems or problems that have no error code or otherwise are not being written to the module as an error for some reason).The only time this is an issue in taking a 'hard line' with a dealer repair shop is if you are modded. They can reciprocate easily and make your engine/tranny mods an issue.

[Toasted7]

Where is this website with all the TSB's listed?

[chrisp]

Fill in the blanks here http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/c...h.cfm

[binary]

After finding the TSB... they want to charge me to see a copy. Lame. FEES AND COPYING SERVICES By authority listed in Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 7, there are fees assessed by TIS for this service. We charge a standard labor charge of $38.73 per hour for requests involving computer searches, locating and copying documents. In addition, we charge duplication fees, which are $0.10 per page for paper-based or imaged documents. Some files are only available on microfiche; which means you will receive the equivalent number of microfiche sheets. The charge for a sheet of microfiche is $0.15. Please see TIS's Fees And Copying Services section for average fees for a request.Many simple questions can be answered free of charge by calling our toll-free Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236. Among their many services is the capability to provide information on recalls, the status of defect investigations, and referrals to many other Offices and Organizations.

[silvrhawk7]

I hate to bring up an old thread, but i think my '06 is having this issue as well, but i am not sure if it is this or bad gas, I get the delayed crank issue and it will not kick over until the second attempt...What does anyone think???

[coldmm803]

i doubt its bad gas, do you fill up at a popular chain station?

[silvrhawk7]

I was filling up at circle K (Union 76) Now I have been filling up at sunoco, I just started going back to 87 octane this last week. It hasnt happened yet, but I havent finished the tank of gas either...