HELP!!!!! My Vibe died and won't start!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:47 am

I came home from work, went to pick up some parts about 10mi away for my air bags, cruised over to my wife's cousins house a few blocks from mine, and was just pulling up in front of my house when I felt a pull in the steering. I had the stereo up so I didn't really hear anything, and I figured it was a hose for the air bags hanging up. Then I tried to pull the wheel again and realized the whole car had died! The stereo was still going, and I had just pulled in front of my house but was still in the middle of the road. I tried a few times to start it but it wouldn't start. I pushed it back against the curb and tried to start it again. It was turning over but not starting and was making a weird buzzing sound as I tried to start it that I have never noticed before. I thought maybe the battery had died or something and tried to switch it with another I have, but it still did the same thing. I tried reading it with an OBDII reader and got a MAF error. I took the MAF out of my CAI and looked at it, nothing seemed to be wrong. Put it back, took all my extra ground wires off, looked for any visible problems under the hood, but couldn't find any. It seemed to be running fine before it died. The buzzing thing is making me wonder. It sounds like it is coming from under the hood or under the car by my feet. I need to get this fixed ASAP as I am supposed to work tomorrow morning at 5am! If anyone has ANY ideas, please let me know.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:58 am

No useful tips hereAll I can think of is check all the fuses. Fuel and spark. Don't know if it;s possible, there was a thread somewhere somebody had diesel in the tank, he drained the tank by taking a plug out of the fuel rail. Maybe try that to see if you are getting fuel pressure. Not sure how to check for spark with these coil on plug thingsdoes the buzzing sound happen when the starter is on, or when the ignition is on? Any way to have someone else inside so you can try to better locate the source of the sound?Did your scanner give you a CEL code?

Digger · Post by **Digger** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:31 am

I wonder if it is out of gas the humming might be the fuel pump trying to build pressure.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:56 pm

Quote, originally posted by Digger Â»I wonder if it is out of gas the humming might be the fuel pump trying to build pressure. Well, I have been tinkering with it all day and getting nowhere. My battery is officially AFU. Good thing I have another one, deep cycle! We tried checking a spark plug and got a spark. We put fuel in the throttle body and it still didn't fire. We are thinking fuel pump, but I'm still not sure. I can't take it to the dealer as I have the CAI with the S/C which isn't allowed according to TRD and GM even though everyone I know that is S/C'ed has it that way too. I have looked at and pulled just about every fuse and relay that has anything to do with the EFI. Does anyone know where the fuel pump is located? Is it in the tank? My gauge is showing about 3/8 of a tank, but my wife's uncle said he thinks it is empty or close to it. I've never had a problem with the gauge before and it's run down to the light just recently. The buzzing was when it was actually trying to start, but I don't even hear it anymore. Maybe that means the pump is gone now? I don't know. I'm screwed!

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:30 pm

Remove the oil cap and look inside with a flashlight. Have someone try and turn it over while you look inside the valve cover. See if the camshaft moves while cranking. If nothing moves, then your timing chain broke.Just a wild guess, but it happened to one of my friends recently just from cruising at 35mph like any other day.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:13 am

Quote, originally posted by Mase Â»Remove the oil cap and look inside with a flashlight. Have someone try and turn it over while you look inside the valve cover. See if the camshaft moves while cranking. If nothing moves, then your timing chain broke.Just a wild guess, but it happened to one of my friends recently just from cruising at 35mph like any other day.Thanks, I'll give it a try!

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:03 am

Vibes have Timing CHAINS, not belts. Sorry, just no sense in chasing a broken timing belt when you don' t have one. I'm thinking MAF sensor, or fuel pump. Try this, take a rubber mallet, or a hammer and a block or wood. Spank the bottom of the fuel tank with the rubber mallet, or the hammer against the block of wood against the bottom of the tank, while an assitant cranks the engine....if it starts at all, even for a moment, it's the pump.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:23 am

Sorry! That sucks especially right at Xmas. I can't think of anything else other than what everyone else has suggested. Someone on MO said to have the ECU checked since there have been a couple MO people that have had the ECU go bad on their's. Hope you get it taken care of asap!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:24 am

Quote, originally posted by BlueCrush Â»Sorry! That sucks especially right at Xmas. I can't think of anything else other than what everyone else has suggested. Someone on MO said to have the ECU checked since there have been a couple MO people that have had the ECU go bad on their's. Hope you get it taken care of asap!This is looking like a strong possibility as we can't seem to figure anything else out. Everything else works, just won't start. Guess I'll have to get it to a dealership, but I am worried about doing that since I have the Injen CAI (no-no with S/C) and some of the bag set-up wiring jumped off of the ECU wiring.

binary · Post by **binary** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:03 am

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â»This is looking like a strong possibility as we can't seem to figure anything else out. Everything else works, just won't start. Guess I'll have to get it to a dealership, but I am worried about doing that since I have the Injen CAI (no-no with S/C) and some of the bag set-up wiring jumped off of the ECU wiring. Jumped off the ECU wiring?

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:18 am

Quote, originally posted by binary Â»Jumped off the ECU wiring? YEah, but we just took a 12V signal off one of the wires. It was never a problem since I have had the bags on so I really don't think that has anything to do with it, but I plan to rectify that before I take it in so they don't try to use that against me!

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:51 am

Do you hear the fuel pump cycle when you turn the key but not actually crank it?You can also spray the MAF with brake cleaner to clean it, possibly it will help but if it gave up the ghost cleaning will not help...

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:35 am

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy Â»Do you hear the fuel pump cycle when you turn the key but not actually crank it?You can also spray the MAF with brake cleaner to clean it, possibly it will help but if it gave up the ghost cleaning will not help... Question is will the MAF going bad really kill the car in motion and keep it from re-starting? If so I will just go buy one and try it out, but what is the return policy if that doesn't do the trick? I called the dealer and they pretty much told they won't warranty anything just b/c of the stuff I've done. I don't even want to take it (more like tow it!) over there and pay their ridiculous amounts of $$$$!Edit: As for the fuel pump cycling, I'm not sure. When I just turn the key to "ON" I don't hear anything, but sometimes when I try to start it I hear it buzzing.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:38 am

I think when people have had their MAF go bad it made the car run in cripple mode, RPMS limited to 3000, stuff like that, but the engine did still run.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:48 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I think when people have had their MAF go bad it made the car run in cripple mode, RPMS limited to 3000, stuff like that, but the engine did still run.That is exactly what I thought, as the same thing happened with my wife's old C230 when the MAF went out on it. It just ran crappy and idled weird. It still ran though, but actually when it first went out the car died, but started back up again and required you to hold the gas pedal when you came to a stop or it would die, but it still started right back up again. I don't know, and the S/C ECU apparently requires a special computer or adapter to read so I could see what it says and I assume only the dealer has that. I'm feeling a little screwed right now!

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:49 am

I would agree with Joat here... I do not suspect MAF and usually they die slow and send codes while they are going bad. Have a fuel pressure gage? I would start there! Do not do just a flow test you will need to put a load on the pump and watch for leak down with a gage since weak pumps can still flow if let to flow freely. Also start with the basics, check all those fuses! Do you have a security system on the car?

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:55 am

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy Â»I would agree with Joat here... I do not suspect MAF and usually they die slow and send codes while they are going bad. Have a fuel pressure gage? I would start there! Do not do just a flow test you will need to put a load on the pump and watch for leak down with a gage since weak pumps will still flow if let to flow freely. Also start with the basics, check all those fuses! Do you have a security system on the car? Tried screwing with the security system and checked all the fuses that seem to pertain to this. Nothing seems wrong. As for having a fuel pressure gage, that is a NO. Where do I get one, what's it cost, and how would I hook it up? Take into consideration I have a S/C with a 5th injector. There is a connection where the fuel line is but apparently that requires some special clip to remove. Or is it easier to just disconnect the hose at the pump in the rear under the seat? I wish someone who knew what they were doing lived here and could help me out with this. I tried to call Andre(draday55) who has helped me install all this stuff, but with it being X-mas and all, he is expectedly busy. Might have to try him again and see if he can come help me try to figure this out without having to go through the dealer.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:17 pm

Not sure on the price of a gage, mine is from my work and I do not know the price of it... Most local auto stores carry them. However fuel gages can connect a few different ways. The gage I have has a Shreader valve on it and on some engines there is a male Shreader valve right on the fuel injector rail. My Vette has one but lots of car companies have eliminated this valve to save a few pennies! Really sucks now for things like this... Other ways to connect are under the hood and opening the fuel system to connect in line. However usually an adapter is needed to do this and of course the tools you mentioned to disconnect the lines. There may be a way at the pump but sorry I do not know for sure. Looks like you cannot do this on your own similar to what you said above. I am really thinking here but coming up with blanks!!!! I will think more on it and see what I can come up with... An Ignition Module will do this to a car but the Vibe does not have one as far as I know, each spark plug coil has the ignition module built into it. Plus you have spark... I am wondering about the SC module like you stated above though now. Good luck!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:45 pm

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy Â»I am really thinking here but coming up with blanks!!!! I will think more on it and see what I can come up with... I am wondering about the SC module like you stated above though now. Good luck! Never even noticed you replied! Yeah, I don't know how I would connect a gauge to the fuel line. Let me know if you can think of anything else. I am going to call Andre today and see if he can swing by and maybe we can disconnect the S/C ECU and see if it starts without it. May see if we can rearrange some wiring so there shouldn't be any reason why they won't accept the warranty. The dealer service dept already told me they won't push for warranty, but maybe.... This sucks!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:14 am

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â» I tried reading it with an OBDII reader and got a MAF error. did your ODBII reader give you a standard CEL code, or is it something different?

ZubenElGenubi · Post by **ZubenElGenubi** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:26 am

I've lost power just like this in my former vehicle (Mitsubishi Expo). One time it was the timing belt; the other time it was the ECU. Did you ever check the camshaft to see if it was rotating during start? Although its unlikely given your low mileage, a broken chain is possible.I'm still guessing it's the ECU or harness to the S/C. I'm not familiar with the airbag problem that you have, but it might be that if any of those circuits to the ECU are broken that the car won't start.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:28 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»did your ODBII reader give you a standard CEL code, or is it something different?Yeah, it was 0101, which I believe (don't have the book in front of me) was just a basic MAF sensor error code.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:31 am

Quote, originally posted by ZubenElGenubi Â»I've lost power just like this in my former vehicle (Mitsubishi Expo). One time it was the timing belt; the other time it was the ECU. Did you ever check the camshaft to see if it was rotating during start? Although its unlikely given your low mileage, a broken chain is possible.I'm still guessing it's the ECU or harness to the S/C. I'm not familiar with the airbag problem that you have, but it might be that if any of those circuits to the ECU are broken that the car won't start.You can't see anything through the oil cap hole as was suggested. There is a shield there under the cap. The airbag thing is just that we used a signal from the ECU to tell the airbag compressors when they are allowed to turn on (when the car is running).

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:52 pm

Well, yesterday afternoon I: 1) checked every fuse I could get to (found out why my center console power outlet wasn't working!), 2) swapped MAF's with my wife's aunts Corolla (didn't start in mine and her's started with my MAF fine), and 3) completely removed the TRD S/C ECU and..... NOTHING! (removed)!!!!!! I'm guessing it's gotta be fuel related at this point, but if so then why wouldn't it start when we put fuel in the throttle body? I plan to check out the fuel pump and fuel filter, and Andre is supposed to come over after he gets off of work and look at it with me. Some questions I have: 1) Is there a cutoff switch like if you get in an accident that shuts down the fuel system, and if so, where is it?, 2) How do you check to see if a relay is good or not?, 3) Where is the fuel pump relay?, 4) What would cause the engine to shut down while I was driving and refuse to start but not affect ANYTHING else? This is driving me nuts! I'm about to be left with no choice but to tow it to the dealer, but I can't imagine what that will end up running me. I wish they weren't such pricks there!

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:24 pm

Can you remove the fuel rail and crank it to see if anything comes out? Since you can't see the camshaft from the filler hole, try removing the valve cover then you'll have open access to everything.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:30 pm

I may be wrong but I believe the VVT-i engine is an interference engine. If the timing chain had let go there would be a lot of noise as the valves were mashed by the pistons at the top of their stroke.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Quote, originally posted by Mase Â»Can you remove the fuel rail and crank it to see if anything comes out? Since you can't see the camshaft from the filler hole, try removing the valve cover then you'll have open access to everything.Once Andre comes over today we will remove the fuel line below the S/C and see if it's getting pressure and fuel. As for removing the valve cover, man I really don't want to get that far into as to start disassembling the engine, maybe if I had someone with me who actually knew more about this stuff and what they were doing! Wanna drive down and help? Mini repair meet at my house!

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:51 pm

You could try a toyota dealership for diagnosis since they work on the Matrix. They would probably charge you less and then you wouldn't have to bring it in to a Pontiac dealership.

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:53 pm

Removing the valve cover is pretty easy actually.Remove the coil packs, disconnect the 2 pcv hoses, and remove the 9 head cover bolts and a few nuts.It took me less than 30mins with my engine.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:58 pm

Quote, originally posted by BlueCrush Â»You could try a toyota dealership for diagnosis since they work on the Matrix. They would probably charge you less and then you wouldn't have to bring it in to a Pontiac dealership.Yeah, never really thought of that. Just about every part of the car is labeled Toyota anyways! Hell, they may even warranty it!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:00 am

Quote, originally posted by Mase Â»Removing the valve cover is pretty easy actually.Remove the coil packs, disconnect the 2 pcv hoses, and remove the 9 head cover bolts and a few nuts.It took me less than 30mins with my engine.Are there any gaskets or seals that have to be replaced after removing the cover?

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:11 am

No replacement is necessary as long as you don't damage it while removing the cover or when re-installing the bolts. Torque to 8ft-lbs and tighten them in a criss cross pattern.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:08 pm

Well, Andre came over yesterday afternoon and we tried a few more things with the alarm, checking for fuel, and a couple other things, and we almost got her to start. She was sputtering like she wanted to start, but something was obviously wrong. It seems that it may be a crank sensor, but I never got a CEL for that. Mostly we just rearranged the wiring and got the stock air box put in. Most likely today she will go to the dealer, but I am probably going to take it to a Toyota dealer as every mechanical and electrical part of that car says Toyota right on it and they tend to have a lot more experience with S/C'ed cars since the Tacoma, Tundra, and Matrix at least use the TRD S/C's. I also noticed that even though the S/C ECU says GM on the label it has a big-@$$ TRD pressed into the cover! This car might as well be a Toyota in Pontiac clothes, so I figure I'm just better off if I can get it serviced there and maybe they won't be such pricks about the warranty stuff. Just an update!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:24 pm

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â» I figure I'm just better off if I can get it serviced there and maybe they won't be such pricks about the warranty stuff. Just an update!I'm sure you know, but Toyota won't do anything on a Vibe under warranty. Their work might not void your GM warranty, but your GM warranty does not apply at a Toyota dealership.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:29 pm

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»I'm sure you know, but Toyota won't do anything on a Vibe under warranty. Their work might not void your GM warranty, but your GM warranty does not apply at a Toyota dealership.That sucks, I just hate to take it to the Pontiac dealer. WHen I originally asked them about the S/C for the Vibe they looked at me cross-eyed and had to look it up. When I called and told them I had one on and had problems they immediately told me it voided the warranty if I didn't buy it that way! Andre said he took his in for something before and they cut the diagnostic harness clip from the S/C ECU off b/c they thought it was an extra harness! They are just usually d!ck$ when it comes to anything aftermarket. Oh well, guess I'll have to take it to GM, thanks for the heads up Joat!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:21 am

Well, it's off to the dealer. We'll see what happens.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:17 am

Good Luck, Jason!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:23 am

Quote, originally posted by BlueCrush Â»Good Luck, Jason! Thanks Brian, hopefully it's something small! Called and he said he got the car but hadn't found the problem. He said he would call tomorrow and let me know what's up.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:53 am

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â» 1) Is there a cutoff switch like if you get in an accident that shuts down the fuel system, and if so, where is it?, 2) How do you check to see if a relay is good or not?, 3) Where is the fuel pump relay?, I know these are moot points now but... No, there is no fuel cut off switch if you get rear ended anymore. Ford used this system a lot years ago but GM never did. The only way to check a relay I know of is possibly using a Volt Ohm Meter or get a known good one and replace the old. Regarding checking fuel at the fuel rail... "Do not do just a flow test you will need to put a load on the pump and watch for leak down with a gage since weak pumps can still flow if let to flow freely." When it comes back let us know what the cause was! Good luck!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:33 pm

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy Â»When it comes back let us know what the cause was! Good luck! Will do!

scherry2 · Post by **scherry2** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:21 pm

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â» This car might as well be a Toyota in Pontiac clothesIt is. Hope you got the car running. I took mine to the toyota dealer and they looked at me funny cause I wanted then to tell me why the vsv makes so much noise. no one wants to take any responsibility they seem to have "its not ours" syndrome even though its a pontiac/Toyota venture.good luck.

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:54 am

UPDATE!!!! The Pontiac service department guys are idiots! They called me today and told me that my MAF was bad and they had to order a new one and it would take 3 working days! I explained to him that I already tried putting a new MAF from another car in it and it still did not start. He then told me how his technician spent 2 hours running diagnostics on it and found that the MAF was bad! Guess I'll have to wait until the MAF gets there and watch them look like idiots when it still doesn't start! Who knows how long I will have to wait after that!

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:55 pm

Just make sure they dont charge you for that part and labor.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:18 am

They'll say "It was that part and we have found some thing else now too" as they go thru their process of elimination and charge you up the (removed) for it. Damn Dealerships!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:44 am

but if it's under warranty, let them replace anything it takes to fix the problem

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:01 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»but if it's under warranty, let them replace anything it takes to fix the problemThis is my plan, and I plan to contact them Monday about borrowing a car until I get mine back as it will probably be a while!

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:27 pm

Quote, originally posted by damronjr Â»This is my plan, and I plan to contact them Monday about borrowing a car until I get mine back as it will probably be a while! Well, I went in and saw my Vibe just chillin' there in the service department. I asked the service guy (whom I do not like!) if I could get a loner, and he proceeded to give me the third degree about where I got my S/C, who I got it from, where they got it from, and all that. I told him I knew I had a 12mo/12k mi warranty even after installing it myself and told him I could get him whatever he needed should that be a problem. Then he goes into, "well, the car was lowered and someone did some work on it!" I acknowledged that fact that it was lowered but asked how in the F that would cause any part of the engine to quit functioning properly! He said, well it could, and that if they couldn't get the repairs fixed under warranty that I would be responsible for the rental they put me in, the parts, service, and tow to the dealer! I don't suppose anyone has the number to Corporate GM JIC?!? This looks like it could get ugly, b/c apparently this guy will do anything to get my $$$$ instead of the warranty company's. He is the same guy from before that when I got a CEL with the Injen (good thing he doesn't remember that since I put the stock air box back in!) 1 guy told me it was cool that it would still be warrantied and when I brought the car around he told me they would charge me for diagnostics b/c I had altered the intake system and it was my fault! Fortunately I just left and nothing was noted!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:04 am

bastageThat sucks, but I am conflicted. I mean, if the problem really was the result of the mods you installed, then it theoretically shouldn't be covered under warranty, but then again, if they can't say what the problem is, they can't prove your mods caused the failure so it should be covered by warranty, but if they fix it and prove you caused it, then it could be expensive, so it would be good if it was covereed under warranty, unless it's your fault and then you ethically should have to pay for the repair, but ....Does the S/C warranty cover the engine it is installed in, or just the S/C parts in the kit?

damronjr · Post by **damronjr** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:16 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»bastageThat sucks, but I am conflicted. I mean, if the problem really was the result of the mods you installed, then it theoretically shouldn't be covered under warranty, but then again, if they can't say what the problem is, they can't prove your mods caused the failure so it should be covered by warranty, but if they fix it and prove you caused it, then it could be expensive, so it would be good if it was covereed under warranty, unless it's your fault and then you ethically should have to pay for the repair, but ....Does the S/C warranty cover the engine it is installed in, or just the S/C parts in the kit?I know if the mods I installed can be proven to be the cause the fault then I am responsible, but I don't see how they could be. As far as I know, the S/C warranty includes the engine and everything, not just the S/C. I will have to look further into that, but when I told him he changed the subject, so I assume that means the whole engine is covered and since I knew that he dropped it. Either way, I don't see how any of the mods (most of which many others have had on their cars for much longer than I with no problems) could cause the engine to stop working properly. I guess we'll see if they ever figure out what's wrong with it.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:32 am

I do not have it handy but the Pontiac Customer Assistance Center is where you need to call. The number is in the back of your owners manual. They will listen and start a case for you. If need be they contact the dealer to hear their side... This does not sound good...