New 2zz headers and hopefully for Vibe/Matrix

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:47 am

Saw this on another site and was really impressed http://www.clubcelica.com/forums/index. ... entry74883 . It would be nice to see these avaiable for us. Pushing about 172 HP at the wheels with exhaust and intake.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:18 am

Shouldnt the GT-S headers fit out GT's? We'd be looking at the same numbers, if you had the Injen intake and the exhaust. 172 HP and 120 TQ at the wheels is impressive. Probably get into the high 14's in the 1/4. Add a S/C and :drool: LoL Maybe they should add a drool icon.

ShotInTheDark · Post by **ShotInTheDark** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:32 am

not to point out the obvious but the gt already makes 180 hp...

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:44 am

quote:not to point out the obvious but the gt already makes 180 hp...The GT puts out 180 at the crank or flywheel I think. These numbers would be at the wheel which factory is about 153 from most dynos. That's a marked improvement off about 20 hp.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:18 am

I believe the 180hp fly rating is a bit underated. From what I've seen the 2ZZ makes about 160hp to the wheels stock. Add intake and it's getting fairly close to 170. I do not believe those headers added any significant horsepower. Bang for the buck, the intake is the way to go.

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:18 am

quote:I believe the 180hp fly rating is a bit underated. From what I've seen the 2ZZ makes about 160hp to the wheels stock. Add intake and it's getting fairly close to 170. I do not believe those headers added any significant horsepower. Bang for the buck, the intake is the way to go.Did you actually look at the link? If you did, you would realize they did a dyno with a Injen intake and Greddy exhaust first and saw 163 hp at the wheels. This is inline with Injens dyno with their intake and TRD exhaust. Then the header was put on the vehicle and it gained 9 hp at peak which is very easy to see from the graphs. Before you post, please do a little reading. Stating that they do not add any significant HP is really poor when it shows 10 HP gain. Plus adding an intake shows a gain from 153 to 163 according to Injen and this sight proved that 163 peak is accurate for just an Injen intake. Please someone else help out here.

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:19 am

quote:Shouldnt the GT-S headers fit out GT's? We'd be looking at the same numbers, if you had the Injen intake and the exhaust. 172 HP and 120 TQ at the wheels is impressive. Probably get into the high 14's in the 1/4. Add a S/C and :drool: LoL Maybe they should add a drool icon. According to a post over at Matrixvibe.net, they headers all should fit though the exhausts might not line up exactly. I'm fairly sure it would work, but I will wait to see if others are successful.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:26 am

Other dynosheets that I've seen on the 2zz show high 160's, almost 170 with just intake or intake/exhaust. That dyno you saw was from the shop that is trying to sell THEIR header. Give me a break. Look at the picture of the stock header and the aftermarket one, they look the same, except the aftermarket one is shiny.I'm SORRY, but if you honestly think that a header adds 10 wheel horsepower to a 1.8L motor, I highly recommend you buying one and watching the manufacturer that built it laugh all the way to the bank. The stock header is VERY efficient. I've been following the 2zz motor on other websites for a while and there has been NO header that has given a significant horsepower gain. Some have actually lost power.Oh, about the graph, I can make a graph look pretty in about 5 minutes using my computer. I stand by my previous statements.

mu_ohio · Post by **mu_ohio** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:12 pm

quote:Other dynosheets that I've seen on the 2zz show high 160's, almost 170 with just intake or intake/exhaust. That dyno you saw was from the shop that is trying to sell THEIR header. Give me a break. Look at the picture of the stock header and the aftermarket one, they look the same, except the aftermarket one is shiny.I'm SORRY, but if you honestly think that a header adds 10 wheel horsepower to a 1.8L motor, I highly recommend you buying one and watching the manufacturer that built it laugh all the way to the bank. The stock header is VERY efficient. I've been following the 2zz motor on other websites for a while and there has been NO header that has given a significant horsepower gain. Some have actually lost power.Oh, about the graph, I can make a graph look pretty in about 5 minutes using my computer. I stand by my previous statements.Show me a single dyno run that shows this engine making 170 hp at the wheels with just an intake/exhaust. I've seen a dozen on the web from various parts makers to private owners and they support a typical reading of 160hp at the wheel. As we all know, an intake may put out 10hp at peak and the axle back exhausts make at the most 1 or 2 hp. About 150 base plus another 10 hp does not add up to 170.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:33 pm

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthr ... ht=dynoYou might have to copy the whole link into your address bar. Anyway, 168hp with intake and TRD exhaust. Look, if you think a header will get 10hp, then go ahead and buy one, but make sure to do a before and after dyno pull to verify your huge gains. hehe.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:43 pm

Not to sound smart, but are you the same person that would say the Injen and AED CAI doesnt give 12 extra HP, even though the Dyno for both are in front of you? I header will give you 9 HP if it is made correctly. It's not exactly what it looks like that give the performance. Its the bends, size of the piping and smoothness of the inside. Some of the best gains are made with intake/exhaust mods. I'm waiting to see if anyone else adapts the GT-S header to the Vibe/Matrix. Or better yet, make one for it.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:40 am

quote:Not to sound smart, but are you the same person that would say the Injen and AED CAI doesnt give 12 extra HP, even though the Dyno for both are in front of you? I header will give you 9 HP if it is made correctly. It's not exactly what it looks like that give the performance. Its the bends, size of the piping and smoothness of the inside. Some of the best gains are made with intake/exhaust mods. I'm waiting to see if anyone else adapts the GT-S header to the Vibe/Matrix. Or better yet, make one for it. Don't worry, you don't sound smart. Anyway, I don't ever recall making that statement. I'm well aware of cold air intake gains over restrictive factory intakes. I've had an intake on the last 5 vehicles I've owned, a '93 Del Sol Si, '97 Prelude, '01 Silverado HD truck, my Vette that I still have, and now my Vibe. All have helped noticeably. I have just heard from a lot of people that have gotten little to no gain with a header install on their 2ZZ car, now this header comes out and it's making good power where all the previous ones failed. I don't buy it. If you do, then get one.

MadBill · Post by **MadBill** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:48 am

This header does appear to have stepped diameter tubes (visible on the # 2 port), which are a recent innovation, and some slick "merge"-style junction might be concealed within the collector, but it's pretty hard to credit 9 HP over such a well-developed factory piece. I too would have to see a third party dyno series to be convinced...

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:24 am

quote:Don't worry, you don't sound smart. Ok, I didnt want to hurt your feeling or anything like that by being smart. quote: Anyway, I don't ever recall making that statement. I'm well aware of cold air intake gains over restrictive factory intakes. I've had an intake on the last 5 vehicles I've owned, a '93 Del Sol Si, '97 Prelude, '01 Silverado HD truck, my Vette that I still have, and now my Vibe. All have helped noticeably. I was using that as an example. In other words, people dont even believe things when they are slapped in the face with them. quote:I have just heard from a lot of people that have gotten little to no gain with a header install on their 2ZZ car, now this header comes out and it's making good power where all the previous ones failed. I don't buy it. If you do, then get one.Again, it doesnt matter on what engine the header is installed. You need back pressure in little 4 bangers, or you lose power. I dont see how adding a header will make you lose power. Headers increase power, and thats proven. They have the dynos to show it, also, and I've never heard of an engine losing power by installing a header. As for buying one, I'm not big into fixing my Vibe yet. My GA comes first, right now.Madbill: Factory part are NOT meant for performance. They are meant for the best performance AND ecomony. Toyota could have boosted the power of this engine by adding better things, but then economy is shot in the rear. And some people arent buying Vibes for race cars.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:34 am

I've decided that my Vibe is not a race car. The intake is a great mod, but save for maybe some springs down the road, I'm done modding the car. I was with my roommate on the way to a movie and I wind out first and flat out powershift second to stay in the powerband and the tires gripped because the motor didn't have enough torque to break them loose and I hear a loud clunk as the clutch rengages, the tires didn't spin, so it just gripped and clunked, I was out of the high lift cam for a split second. It's too hard staying in the powerband on the 1-2 and 2-3 upshift.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:39 am

Your tires dont spin in 2nd??? Thats not good. I can spin the tires all the way through first and into second for a bit. I love the power of the Vibe as is. That why I'm waiting about a year to start moding it, and the fact I'm about to spend around 4K on the GA for a body kit and paint job, among a few other things. LoL

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:04 pm

Do you have the 17 inch wheel/tire package with some sticky (removed) 215 dunlop tires? I've gotten spin on the 1-2 upshift once, maybe twice. It just doesn't feel good in the Vibe. Now, the C5 is a different story, I can get scratch on the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th gear sometimes on the right roads. hehe. Also, how many miles on your Vibe? I'm thinking the motor loosens up with time.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:11 am

I have the 16" wheel, which I think are basically the same width as the 17". My Vibe has 5K on it, and still loves to spin in second. I'm not a real big fan of Vettes. They are nice, but give me a Firehawk anyday.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:46 am

The 17 inch wheel is wider and the Dunlop 9000 rubber is quite a bit stickier than the base wheel/tire combo. That's probably the majority of the reason for why I can't spin too easily as compared to you.About the Vette versus Firehawk, you're the first guy I've heard of who would prefer an F-body over a C5. Whatever floats your boat.

TGebiV · Post by **TGebiV** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:57 am

in the vette maybe 1st and 2nd no prob 3rd and forth a little sceptical in a stock vette but hey? who knows and a gravel road doesn't count

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:13 am

I'll let you know when I pick up my 18's and either Kuhmo's or Yoko's. I know a few people that dont care for the Vette. I like the Firehawk. The sound they make is unforgettable. Plus, they just look sweet.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:23 am

quote:in the vette maybe 1st and 2nd no prob 3rd and forth a little sceptical in a stock vette but hey? who knows and a gravel road doesn't countCheck my sig, my Vette is not stock. I have 4.10 gears which makes it very easy to get major wheelspin in 1st and 2nd gear, hard scratch in 3rd, and scratch in 4th on the right surfaces (not gravel roads either). I make it a point to not drive my C5 on the gravel road. The breathing mods on my car add to the amazing sound and power the car produces. Unlike the 2zz header, the headers in the C5 produce significant horsepower and torque gains.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:26 am

quote:I'll let you know when I pick up my 18's and either Kuhmo's or Yoko's. I know a few people that dont care for the Vette. I like the Firehawk. The sound they make is unforgettable. Plus, they just look sweet. I'll look forward to your observations of wheelspin when you have some good tires/wheels under your ride. Everyone has their own opinions on what cars they like, again you and your few friends are in a brutal minority on picking an f-body over a C5. Factor cost into the consideration and I understand, but price non-dependent, it's no contest. About the sound, you put some aftermarket intake and exhaust on the Vette and it sounds every bit as good as a Firehawk. The motors in the two are identical for all intents and purposes.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:44 am

quote: Everyone has their own opinions on what cars they like, again you and your few friends are in a brutal minority on picking an f-body over a C5. Factor cost into the consideration and I understand, but price non-dependent, it's no contest. About the sound, you put some aftermarket intake and exhaust on the Vette and it sounds every bit as good as a Firehawk. The motors in the two are identical for all intents and purposes.I wouldnt say a brutal minority. Theres more than you think, you just hear the people that like them. Dont get me wrong, they are ok, I just like the Firehawks looks...overall. But the Vette and Firehawk are in different cat's. Vettes are supposibly 'supercars' while the Firehawk is a 'muscle car' On a super car status, myself, I'd love to get my hands on a twin turbo Supra, 97-98. Not hard to make them 700 HP. Anywho, this has gone way off topic......

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:54 am

I wouldn't say the Vette or the Supra are supercars. They're true sports car, whereas the F-bodies are muscle cars. Different strokes...... Also, I wouldn't say 700hp is easy. 400-500hp, yes, but not 700. 700 will require a single turbo conversion with all the bells and whistles with some nice tuning. I hang out with a lot of Supra guys. I also hang out with a lot of F-body guys. It's all good.Yes, this has gone WAY off topic.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:24 am

LOL You were on the debate team, werent you? Anyway, it's easier than you think. Not real easy, but not real hard. Meet the TWIN turbo 1015HP supra. http://www.geocities.com/mz_supra/1015hp.html

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:26 am

Yeah, that Supra looks like a weekend project. Modded Supras are quick on the highway, but around town, the lag and instant boost of the bigger powered Supras make them nearly undriveable at lower speeds due to major wheelspin. That's why all the Supra guys I hang out with want to race on the highway from a punch at like 60mph to 160+mph.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:32 am

LoL! I said easy, not "Drop in an air filter" easy. Plus thats 1015HP, not 700. I believe the car can still corner and run with the best on a curvy road. Just the straight aways that it would chew up and spit out the compittion.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:35 pm

That Supra has tens of thousands of dollars in modifications, well over $20k. Trust me on this one. Any car can be made fast. The Supra 2JZ block is very, very strong stock. Other than the power of the block and good build quality, the car didn't have a lot of positive attributes which is the main reason it's not sold here in the US anymore. Americans like instant low end torque and power, hence the success of the Camaro, Mustang, Viper, and Vette and the lack of success of the 300ZX, Supra, RX-7, et al.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:44 am

They dont sell the Camaro anymore. Americans are changing their preferances, one reason the F bodies are gone. The money now is in the small, 4 bangers and 6's. This is why there's the WRX, The Evo is coming to our shores, the 350Z is here, The RX8 is coming, etc. Times are changing.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:43 am

The Camaro isn't sold anymore because it was a piece of junk. Save for the power in the motor, it had little going for it. You were the one that was saying how much you like the Firehawk over the Vette. The Firehawk is the same thing as a Camaro, Formula, TransAm, etc.I do agree that there has been a resurgence in import vehicles, but I wouldn't say all the money is going into 4 and 6 bangers. The EVO, WRX, 350Z, RX8, etc. is just the foreign car manufacturers trying to capitalize on the Fast and Furious crowd and their dispensible income. The domestics are doing the same with the Neon SRT-4, Ford Focus SVT, and a turbo Cavalier coming out in the near future.

DABEAR95 · Post by **DABEAR95** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:05 am

quote:The Camaro isn't sold anymore because it was a piece of junk.Ouch man!

robdog · Post by **robdog** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:11 am

Now what did this thread start out with?????and end????

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:50 am

quote:The Camaro isn't sold anymore because it was a piece of junk.Ouch man!I guess that can be construed as harsh. I didn't mean it quite like that. Between the car insurance premiums and the poor interior room versus the largish exterior dimensions, the car was doomed. The sales were dropping year by year and GM was getting a lot of warranty claims due to owner's 'abusing' their cars. It was only a matter of time before GM realized it was a losing proposition to carry the car in it's current iteration and dropped it from the lineup. In that sense, it was junk. Otherwise, it was a very fast and powerful car for the money and I have many friends who own and enjoy their F-bodies immensely!!

St. Martin · Post by **St. Martin** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:10 am

Just to let you guys know, I've heard that adding new headers or forced inductions to these celica engines was bad news. A buddy of mine who races with toyota engines got some literature that stated these VVTI's were prone to blowing up if too much was done to them. As you guys know, they already run hot with the power range between 6k-7k RPM. Just a word of advice, engine mods more than intake might strain the vibe past its tolerances. This is what I heard anyway. I don't know anyone who has tried a header, so I don't know the safety issue or if the results are good enough to warrant the risks and costs. Just food for thought.

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:04 am

I really don't think any 'external' bolt-on mods could compromise the motor. Forced induction DEFINITELY, but not bolt-ons. The extent of my power mods is just going to be the AEM CAI that is on there now, but I don't think exhaust or headers will do anything bad at all to the motor.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:24 pm

quote:If you guys are going to get a header, and a exhaust system and a cold air intake. Why dont you go ahead and get a different cam and get the head and intake port and polished, but do not stop there.Chip the car and do some other mods. Strip the interior on anyting that is not needed to make it lighter, have the frame or zones stiffend and at a performace clutch. Run a different oil and fuel octane and then you are starting to talk.::Blinks::

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:54 pm

quote:If you guys are going to get a header, and a exhaust system and a cold air intake. Why dont you go ahead and get a different cam and get the head and intake port and polished, but do not stop there.Chip the car and do some other mods. Strip the interior on anyting that is not needed to make it lighter, have the frame or zones stiffend and at a performace clutch. Run a different oil and fuel octane and then you are starting to talk.What are you talking about? I said in my post that I was finished at the AEM CAI. I'm not going to do any more power mods to the Vibe? If I'm going to do a cam and head etc. I can assure you it will be on my Vette because I can actually pick up about 100 horsepower with a head/cam swap and some custom tuning. hehe.Corey

QUIKAG · Post by **QUIKAG** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:01 pm

The intake is about as much fun as I need with my daily driver Vibe. Any mod money that I choose to spend goes into the Vette, though with the Vette, I'm finished with bolt-on mods, the next step is going into the mod for a cam swap or head and cam. The Vibe, to be made really fast, would cost more money than it's worth. It would be fun as a sleeper, but just not cost effective.

DopeVibeGT · Post by **DopeVibeGT** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:37 pm

Yeah, ya kinda suprised me there. LoLI plan on doing thing to the Vibe, but not for a year or two. I will be getting 18" wheels soon, and lowering it with coil overs. To me, it's way unstable (I'm use to my GA which is lowered). Engine wise, I want to increase fuel flow and get the computer reprogrammed. I'm not going to do any internal engine mods, unless when they come out with a S/C for the GT, it needs lower compression. If I hear possitive things about header for the GT, I'll get that. If I can get the Vibe lower than 15 in the quarter, I'll be happy. I got my GA 2 seconds quicker in the 1/4 (At least what a bone factory was reported to do in the 1/4), so the Vibe should be easier.