Three Automotive things I never understood

[vibe-04]

I have three observations of the automotive industry that I have to share somewhere and I need some answers or opinions. They may sound like odd questions but I figured if anyone has opinions on these subjects it would be the people on this board. These are things that go throught my mind at a stop light.1) Why does an auto cost waaaay more than a standard? Sure there's more parts and they are "more complicated" but overall the price point shouldn't be a far off as it is. I can't remember when I bought my 04 vibe but I think it was over $1,000 CDN. (I wanted stick from the start so I never really asked.)2) Why don't all four wheels have disk brakes? This one really bugs me cause the rear drum requires more labor to put together and more parts than disk but you will only find the option on higer end cars (The GT and AWD has all wheel disks, right.)3) Do low profile tires offer a performance advantage? Ok, I'm really confused on this one cause my automotive teacher back in high school taught us that the tire's "patch" provides the friction for acceleration and braking and the "roll" or edge is used for cornering. Now I know low profile tires increase ride stiffness, and alignment difficulties, yet if they offer a performance advantage, why are they not in NASCAR, F1, or rally racing. Is it for show and not go? Any thoughts are welcome.Andrew

[ZubenElGenubi]

Those are great questions, vibe-04.1) I have no idea.2) I have no idea.3) I have no idea.

[scherry2]

to answer the the 1st question:over 3/4 of the people in the U.S. can't drive a standard and want convenience. auto makers want to make money. charge for the auto and you make more money because of those 3/4 that have to buy the automatic.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by vibe-04 »2) Why don't all four wheels have disk brakes? This one really bugs me cause the rear drum requires more labor to put together and more parts than disk but you will only find the option on higer end cars (The GT and AWD has all wheel disks, right.)Only the GT has four wheel discs. Disks are not standard all around because they're expensive! It's also unnecessary. Drum brakes have good stopping power, and are sometimes preferred over disks because of their low-dust advantage. But in general, the drum technology is older, more common, and more inexpensive to produce. A car that isn't a high performance car doesn't really need the excess stopping power that comes with disk brakes.Quote »3) Do low profile tires offer a performance advantage? Ok, I'm really confused on this one cause my automotive teacher back in high school taught us that the tire's "patch" provides the friction for acceleration and braking and the "roll" or edge is used for cornering. Now I know low profile tires increase ride stiffness, and alignment difficulties, yet if they offer a performance advantage, why are they not in NASCAR, F1, or rally racing. Is it for show and not go? There are many benefits to lower profile tires.Improved steering responseLower rolling resistanceImproved sidewall stability under brakingYou can use larger wheels which allow room for bigger brakes but still maintain the same overall outside diamaterLess camber distortion when cornering.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »to answer the the 1st question:over 3/4 of the people in the U.S. can't drive a standard and want convenience. auto makers want to make money. charge for the auto and you make more money because of those 3/4 that have to buy the automatic. Good explanation. Of course, there are plenty of cars out there where you don't get charged "extra" for an automatic... GM makes many. Of course, you don't really get a choice in the matter, no manuals available even if you wanted to pay for it, so I guess maybe that x amount of dollars is factored into the base price instead.

[binary]

1) Why does an auto cost waaaay more than a standard?A: The multitude of parts, and the complex design of the valve body originally made hydraulic automatic transmissions much more complicated (and expensive) to build and repair than manual transmissions. In most cars (except US family, luxury, sport-utility vehicle, and minivan models) they have usually been extra-cost options for this reason. Mass manufacturing and decades of improvement have reduced this cost gap. (source)2) Why don't all four wheels have disk brakes?True - there are less parts to the rear disc brakes - but then add in the emergency brake components - and now you've got more parts. It's true - they stop better, but only in the most extreme situations. Even then - the rear discs are typically solid and will warp in those situations or the tires won't benefit from the discs anyway. In a panic stop 80-90% of your brake effort is on the front discs anyway. If you like the look of disc brakes all around - buy them. Drum brakes aren't bad by any means or measure - especially in smaller vehicles.Did you know your vibe will boost the vacuum pressure sent to the master cylinder when it detects a panic stop to increase brake pressure much more quickly and powerfully than a normal fully extended pedal would give?3) Do low profile tires offer a performance advantage?I think maybe your autotech teacher was on crack. The patch does everything - including cornering. The suspension should work to keep the tires flat on the ground - no matter the surface it's on or the amount of body roll around the corners."Low profile tires (most performance tires) have a short and wide contact patch that is effective in converting the driver's input into very responsive handling, cornering stability and traction...especially on dry roads. High profile tires (light truck and most passenger tires) have a long and narrow contact patch which helps to provide predictable handling, a smooth ride and especially good traction in snow." - (TireRack Tech Info)

[ToolGuy]

Costs and demands...The auto is in demand more and the rear disks require different knuckles and things...

[cohocarl]

Quote, originally posted by binary »...the complex design of the valve body...Yup..

Attached files

[4X4CHICHI]

I don't know if I can remember how to drive an automatic. lol

[MadBill]

I believe the manual transmission for the GTO costs $1,000 more than the auto! (coincidentally, the same as the gas guzzler tax for the auto...)

[vibe-04]

Quote, originally posted by MadBill »I believe the manual transmission for the GTO costs $1,000 more than the auto! (coincidentally, the same as the gas guzzler tax for the auto...)Are you pulling my leg or is there really a tax? I know there was the "air conditioning" tax but for an auto as well. Andrew

[cohocarl]

Quote, originally posted by vibe-04 »Are you pulling my leg or is there really a tax? Ya, in the States, there's a "Gas Guzzler" tax on cars that don't get a certain fuel mileage, and the GTO automatic is hit with it, but the manual must get a little better fuel mileage and isn't hit with it.But if you drive an 8mpg Hummer, or a pee-cup truck, that's "ok", you don't have to pay the tax because it's classified as a light truck (or something like that), and not car. Hows that for f'in stupid.?

[jake75]

What is the Gas Guzzler Tax? The Energy Tax Act of 1978 established a Gas Guzzler Tax on the sale of new model year vehicles whose fuel economy fails to meet certain statutory levels. The gas guzzler tax applies only to cars (not trucks) and is collected by the IRS. The fuel economy figures used to determine the Gas Guzzler Tax are different from the fuel economy values provided on this web site and in the Fuel Economy Guide. The tax does not depend on your actual on-the-road mpg, which may be more or less than the EPA published value. The purpose of the Gas Guzzler Tax is to discourage the production and purchase of fuel inefficient vehicles. The amount of any applicable Gas Guzzler Tax paid by the manufacturer will be disclosed on the automobile's fuel economy label (the window sticker on new cars). GAS GUZZLER TAX Unadjusted MPG (combined)* Tax at least 22.5 No tax at least 21.5, but less than 22.5 $1000 at least 20.5, but less than 21.5 $1300 at least 19.5, but less than 20.5 $1700 at least 18.5, but less than 19.5 $2100 at least 17.5, but less than 18.5 $2600 at least 16.5, but less than 17.5 $3000 at least 15.5, but less than 16.5 $3700 at least 14.5, but less than 15.5 $4500 at least 13.5, but less than 14.5 $5400 at least 12.5, but less than 13.5 $6400 less than 12.5 $7700 * The combined fuel economy MPG value (55% city, 45% highway) is used to determine tax liability. The MPG value is also adjusted slightly to account for differences in test procedures made since the base year, but it is not adjusted for in-use short fall. The unadjusted combined MPG of a vehicle can be approximated from the city and highway values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide and on this website by the following equation:(1/(.495/City MPG + .351/Highway MPG)) + .15Since this is an approximate calculation, the actual gas guzzler tax may be off by one tax bracket.

[jake75]

Correct me if I am wrong but when I plug in my T&C Van 19 mpg city, 26 mpg hwy into the equation(1/(.495/City MPG + .351/Highway MPG)) + .15, I get a value of 25.40My T&C MSRP sticker does not show any gas guzzler tax. So what are the Vibe GT numbers that are going to workout to less than 22.5 by this calculation. Is there a gas guzzler tax shown on the GTO AT sticker?

[ColonelPanic]

Yes, I have seen manual GTO's not have this tax, whereas the automatic equipped models do have it listed.kbb.com shows for the 2006 GTO with automatic: Gas Guzzler Tax (R8E) 1300.00

[Toolman]

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic »I believe the manual transmission for the GTO costs $1,000 more than the auto! (coincidentally, the same as the gas guzzler tax for the auto...)Yes the 6 speed GTO is 995 dollars more, but the auto has a 1300 dollar gas guzzler tax. I have the 04 GTO in an auto, I looked all over my final invoice but I could not find the charge for the guzzler tax. Total price with tax, tilte, and liscence was 26.5k. They may have put it in the purchase price though.

[jake75]

It apparently becomes part of the MSRP. Purpose of listing it on the sticker is to give you a guilt trip I suppose. There is also a CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) "tax" of some sort but that would not show up on any indiividual MSRP sticker. However, it is a cost of doing business that the company will try to get back in the price of their vehicles. I believe all the major companies have a CAFE high enough to avoid this "tax". Rolls Royce no doubt pays it.One tax we did get rid of a few years ago was the luxury tax on cars costing over a certain amount. [I can remember when there was a 10% federal tax on jewelry, even costume jewelry, and cosmetics including deodorant. Silcione implants probably weren't invented yet but they might have been taxed as well. Maybe they should have been taxed at 20% as they might be considered both jewelry and cosmetics. And then another 10% entertainment tax? It may have also applied to leather goods - my memory is a little dim on that.]

[ToolGuy]

I would want the manual trans in the GTO anyway... And for the new Corvette the manual trans is now the standard trans. Finally the right trans in a Corvette is the manual trans!

[vibe-04]

Wow, we don't have a "gas Guzzler" tax here in Canada unless it is burried in the MSRP. There is an "Air" tax for the air conditioning. We do have a GST(HST) and PST in most provinces that totals about 15 percent. And we have lots of graft and pork barreling by our politicians who waste our money Thanks for all the input on my earlier questions. I still think the automotive industry charges more for an auto just cause they can get away with it. I'm sure back in the day automatics were rare and more expensive but now they are so comon it doesn't make as much sense. CheersAndrew

[GMJAP]

Quote, originally posted by vibe-04 »Thanks for all the input on my earlier questions. I still think the automotive industry charges more for an auto just cause they can get away with it. I'm sure back in the day automatics were rare and more expensive but now they are so comon it doesn't make as much sense. Car makers, like housing builders, do make a good chunk of their money on the options. ("Upgrades" for homebuilders).

[MadBill]

Quote, originally posted by vibe-04 »Wow, we don't have a "gas Guzzler" tax here in Canada unless it is burried in the MSRP.... Err... In Ontario we do!(Note a car getting 6.1 L/100 KM, 46.8 MPIG or 38.8 MPUSG qualifies as a "Guzzler"! Tax grab, anyone?):Quote from: http://www.greenontario.org/strategy/autos.html "Gas Guzzler Tax (Ontario Fuel Conservation Tax)In 1992, the Ontario government implemented an additional sales tax on the purchase of new passenger vehicles. The "gas guzzler" tax ranges from $75 to $7,000 in seven categories, depending on the extent to which a vehicle exceeds a fuel consumption threshold of 6.0 L per 100 km. Sport utility vehicles are also taxed, but at a rate that is between one-half and one-third the rate for passenger vehicles.Highway Fuel Use Ratings(Litres / 100 Km) Tax on New Passenger Vehicles (dollars) Tax on New Sport Utility Vehicles (dollars) Under 6.0 0 0 6.0 to 7.9 75 0 8.0 to 8.9 75 75 9.0 to 9.4 250 200 9.5 to 12.0 1,200 400 12.1 to 15.0 2,400 800 15.1 to 18.0 4,400 1,600 over 18.0 7,000 3,200 On the other end of the scale, people who buy a new car that uses less than 6.0 litres / 100 Km can receive a rebate of up to $100 on the retail sales tax. The rebate does not apply to SUVs, which is a moot point given that the best efficiency of a 2001 SUV is 9.2 litres / 100 Km. "

[vibe-04]

Yikes!! Anything 10 L/100 KM really starts to dig into the pocket. Double hit at the pump! I don't remember seeing this when I bought my Vibe. It must be burried in the base price. I wonder if Quebec has the same thing? Many of us in Ontario shop in Hull (Gatineau) for furniture and don't pay PST Thanks Mad Bill