Need larger secondary (5th) injector?

[Lancer]

Everyone knows now that I'm running my TRD S/C @ 10psi (stock is 7.5ish). The first night I drove it like that everything ran fine after the first hour of lean running. Only dipped into 1-2 lean lights on my a/f meter on WOT. This week, however, the cars been running very lean on WOT and anythin above half throttle. The only thing different is that it's 30 degrees hotter then last week.I made a couple futile stops at the dealerships (Toyota/Pontiac)and of course nobody had a clue. So I found the local speed shop and within a minute of looking over my system the owner knew the best (and cheapest) way to fix the problem. He took one look at the secondary injector and said 'man is that thing tiny.' So I stopped back at the Toyota parts and asked if they made an injector that was bigger or a bigger one that would fit in there. The guy looked on his 'puter, in the TRD book, and called TRD parts. And all he could come up with is "They don't make another size injector for the kit." Then went on complaining about TRD this and TRD that. I got frustrated and left.So, Does anybody know the specs of the 5th injector and/or what larger injector would fit. I'd much rather do this than upgrade the whole fuel system. And WI won't be enough.One good thing though. I did find a dyno at the speed shop!

[MadBill]

A good fuel systems specialist should be able to look at and/or flow the injector and find say a 10-15% higher flowing one of the same impedance and dimensions.It would be a really good idea to verify AFR on a dyno, JIC. The lights on a typical (narrow band O2 sensor) A/F meter are not very accurate in the range you need (~12:1, I would assume) and actually react mostly to EGT when outside a narrow range around stoichiometric.

[Faultline]

I am a little bit puzzled, because I thought that the kit ran things very rich. I mean , dipping down into the 9:1 a/f ratios (trd/spo tuning). I thought that they did this to keep temps cooler. I understand that you have unichip tuning and that everyone who uses that is able to create more power by leaning out the power band a little. Are you sure that you dont have enough injector? I realize that you pumping more air into the motor, but it seems to me that if the air is hotter this week, then you air/fuel ratios migh get richer because air expands in the heat, as the air gets hotter, the cfm/volume is less. Although the heat raises the risk of detonation, I would think that the A/f ratios would not get worse. I am suspicious that something else might be going on since it ran lean at 1st , then it adjusted. Maybe it adjusted again. I do know that our MAF also has a temp sensor to it. it factors a/f ratios taking into accout intake temps. I dont know the answer to you question about the 5th injector size. Mwr use to offer a fuel pressure regulator for the pe turbo kits that came with no engine management. There was no intercooler and no new injectors, but the kit only ran 4 1/2 psi. The FPR raised the fuel pressure all the time. Remember that you are raising your intake air pressure 10 psi. That is effectively lowering you fuel pressure 10psi as your injectors are having to fight against 10 psi of air pressure. If you raise your FP just 10 psi, your lean problem may just go away. Call mwr and ask Matt about the FPR.

[Lancer]

After I posted this, I thought about maybe trying to see if fuel managment could be the cause of my lean problem. I shot a e-mail to Unichip and got 2 responses right away (Excelent!). They both agreed that I need to send my chip in for another remapping. Jack Friedman, General manager of Unichip, was pretty sure that the fuel system should be able to handle the boost. And Josh suggested that I make sure that my boost line to the turbo mod isn't pinched off or kinked. Never would have thought of that! I'll give the boost line a good inspection and try it out later today.

[satur9]

i was running lean(dont have supercharger though) and i thought mabey the o2 sensor went bad. 130 bucks later. still lean. know what was the problem... dirty injectors. can of injector cleaner and my guage was reading normal in like 20 min.

[Lancer]

Hummm... I'll try that but you know it's never that easy. By the way, checked out the boost line to the turbo mod of the Unichip harness. No kinks or anything with that.(Update): Tried the injector cleaner. I knew it wouldn't be that easy. Looks like I wont be able to get the Unichip remapped for at least 2-3 weeks. Need the car for a wedding my wifes in next weekend and now the new doctor's oppointment changed for the middle of the following week. Would have been nice to know yesterday! Might have made it back in time. This sucks! I've been waiting and trying to make it to the track ALL summer. And now that my car is finally a decent contender against some of the 'big boys'. I can't go to the last night of open track (Real Streat Drags). Sorry everyone for not getting a verified 1/4 mile time on my car. I decided that i'd have to put it off for next season cause I can't take the risk of blowing my engine. It's the only reliable car. I and my family need it and won't be able to afford any repairs right now. I'll try to make it up by getting a dyno once everythings is running right.

[Faultline]

There is no sense in doing something dumb, .... we can all wait.It is funny to me that on this board, our lives revolve around our cars. The progress of our mods have a life of heir own. My car gets me to work,and back. It has soccer gear in the back, as I coach soccer: flags, balls , cones, practice pennies, goalie gloves and water bottles. The Vibe is very practical wagon , and I appreciate its utilitarianism..This turbo/SC stuff is just play stuff. But , your wife has a wedding to be in dont ya know. I didnt want you to beat my 1/4 times till next summer anyway, by then I can beat my own times anyhow.

[Trevinous]

Hello. After a quick glance at you mods I see that you have everything that will make your car run lean. cai+header+exhaust and i see you have a chip. In stock case the trd sc runs rich. but you have leaned it out. If you run this lean for too long you will exsperience dtonation and you engine will be toast! you need WI!!! stat! Do you have it? If you don't get it! You cna control the amount of water that gets to you engine and it will fix your leaning problem a lot. but yeah, if you have a lot of money to play with right now what you can do is dump the 5th injector+trd ecu and you unichip and buy a Greddy emanage ultimate. or the Camcom!!!! And you can control everything from there. Also you will need to buy a little bigger injectors and a secondary in-line fuel pump! Then you will be golden!!!!Also running boost that high on the trd sc will NOT produce more power btw. It will only send more hot air into the engine. Get the WI to fix it a little bit. Also if you have a lot more money build a custom intercooler in-line after the blower, and before the engine, mount it on top and cut a hole in your hood. Then you will be able to actually get an advantage of having boost that high.my 2 cents, sorry for blabbing on.... probably won't help any but wateva.

[Lancer]

Sorry, not made out of money. That's why it's taken me 3 years to get boosted. WI alone would ONLY serve as a 'band-aid' for the lean problem. And It's only lean when it goes passed 8psi. I'm gonna try remapping the Unichip before I go into ugrading the any part of the fuel system. $25+s/h is a lot easier then $200+ just for injectors to start with. Anyways, I have bigger problems right now. Transmission is going.I was waitting for someone to finally make the comment about how my set-up wont produce anymore power at 10psi. You deffinatly get a lot more kick in your pants at 10psi. But you are at least half right. I've been told that our s/c is maxed out at 10psi. I guess we'll all see once I get it dynoed and some track time. Quote, originally posted by Trevinous » Also if you have a lot more money build a custom intercooler in-line after the blower, and before the engine, mount it on top and cut a hole in your hood. Then you will be able to actually get an advantage of having boost that high.Hehe! Your funny! If I had that kind of money I don't think I would be using this S/C. Might as well get an Evo and built it up then. I'm just doing what I can mostly afford to get some fun out of my ride (And to break Fualtlines 1/4mile record ).

[Trevinous]

(First, I am soo sorry to hear about your tranny! I am sorry man!)The fastest TRD SC Matrix runs at 8lb of boost. He has the record recorded at two tracks. When boost goes much over that there is no effect, just hot air going into the engine. Yeah, try getting a new map for your unichip and play with timing and all that jazz. I am sure with a couple hours of tweaking and the WI everything will get better again.Also, why buy an EVO? Everybody and their mom goes out an buys an evo! lol. Vibes and trixes and unique! Thatg is why we have them! (if you had the money) get some sick custom setup for your boost and blow the socks of that evo!peace bro!

[Faultline]

You gotta be sick in your gut, Lancer, to think about your tranny having problems Trevinous, welcome to the boards Your ideas are all sound, but are also a lot of $$$!!I think he will be able to get the tune right with the set up now. If not, I think the MWR FPR would work. To clarify, I believe it goes in at the tank by the stock fuel pump. I dont know if you have to drop the tank to install it. What would be more ideal would be to run a return fuel line, which you could do by modifying the stock fuel rail, or getting a centerfeed fuel rail that has a port for a return line, which you could run back to the filler tube. The deal with a return fuel line is that you could run a rising rate regulator which will raise yout FP at the same rate that you raise the air pressure. You get more fuel into the motor that way from all of the injectors. This way is better than the MWR regulator, because it only changes the FP when in boost . I am only talking about a hundred bucks in parts, which is a lot less than new injectors and a greddy e-manage.I have heard it said that the TRD SC does not get any better gains at 10 psi, and yet , no one should ignore their (removed) dyno!! if it feels like more , then???? Lancer's belt configuration is not the same as any MO guys that I read. I am not sure that it would effect the charge air temps...but who knows?

[Trevinous]

Yeah, I am seeing what you are talking about Faultline! I like the idea about the FPR! Go that route! Lookin good!

[greenfire]

Don't forget the purpose of the 5th injector is to keep the intake temps cool. For this reason the A/F should run a bit rich. The 5th injector sprays into the forced air before it gets into the combustion chamber. Running that much boost with out some sort of additional cooling aspect is risky business IMHO. I found this out the hard way.

[Faultline]

Quote, originally posted by greenfire »Don't forget the purpose of the 5th injector is to keep the intake temps cool. For this reason the A/F should run a bit rich. The 5th injector sprays into the forced air before it gets into the combustion chamber. Running that much boost with out some sort of additional cooling aspect is risky business IMHO. I found this out the hard way. Yes you did, Greenfire, in a final flash of glory! ..this stuff aint for the faint hearted!you still have the distinction of being the 1st awd F/I..I am not sure that is enough of a consolation, but you were the pioneer. My recollection about the 5th injector set up for the sc is : That by running rich, they cooled intake temps 20 degrees so that they gained back some of the power they may have lost when they tuned leaner. Plus, it was much safer. I think that is where people got the idea of tuning for big power, and using W/I for safety. I have W/I, but I use alcohol for a bit of an octane boost. It is a simple set up that uses the windshiel washer resevior and its pump. The pump is connected to a hobbs switch that turns on at 8 psi. That way , it is not on all the time, I do have an intercooler. I couldnt see the need for the expensive aquamist system. It is nice and all , but??...$$$ Sometimes the best is the enemy of good enough!My kooky idea, (and it is only an idea) is to figure out how to use a carburator for W/I. Is seems like instead of using gasoline you could use water, and have the intake air pass thru the carb before the motor..or at least the jets...hmm....I am not sure...I think that my set up is simpler now

[Lancer]

Got the transmission checked out today. As ussual, the car performed flawlessly during 2 drives and 2 computer readings. PMO!And you know the ussual story they give ya, if it 'aint going on when we drive it or run it, we can't fix it. Then when I went to pick up my daughter from school, it started getting all jerky again. So, screw it! I'm just gonna drive it til' itgives me a CEL or gets really bad.I got WI, just haven't had time to install it yet (Been sick all week), and trying to figure out how the Unichip can control it like they say it can. I still think that the fuel sytem should be able to handle the demand. I just need my Unichip remapped. I'm sure of it. A return fuel line would be pretty cool though! With some cool steel braided lines and red FPR! You guys are gonna ruin me!!

[Faultline]

Somehow I missed that you have WI, did you get aqua mist , or snow performance? My basic understanding with those set ups is that the pump they use can operate at different voltages, and so sending it different voltage singnals can change the amounts of water that it pumps out....??If the unichip has a vaccuum line to it, it certainly could tell the WI when to turn on or off at what ever boost setting you tell it to.As far as FPR's and return lines, yeah, you will probably be fine without themI am mostly familar with FPR solutions for F/I mostly because of my SF kit. My A/F ratios are around 11:1 under boost, even when I go to 12 psi, and I have stock injectors that pulse widths that do not max out on. I have no 5th injector and it is all done whith calibrated fuel pressure applied to boost settings. I do have a piggy back that fine tunes injector pulse widths, that ironicly have to lean things out because the basic system runs things rich.My injector seem to be holding out fine with over 2 and a half years of boost. I mention this to say that there are ways to get the fuel in there without upgrading injectors..that's all.

[Lancer]

Sorry I forgot to mention the WI. It just came in last weekend and I've been sick all week and not had the time to install it. (It sucks having to cough and sneeze right after an abdominal surgery! ) It's an Aquastealth kit from BeCooling. The cheapest kit I could find that had the parts I needed.My wife has a wedding she's in this weekend and I have a doctors appointment next Wed. So after the appointment I'll send the Unichip in for remapping for higher boost A/F ratios and maybe control of the WI. Yes, the Unichip has a boost line running to the turbo mod. But I'm not yet decided if I need the chip to control the WI. The kit has a pressure switch that would activate it @ 4-15psi. See, I knew the stock fuel system could handle the boost. I've read about all the other S/Ced and turboed Vibes and Matrixes and mostly all of them are running stock fuel systems.