Quirky Starting Problem.

[csharrigan]

Hey All,I read some similar posts, however, no end resolution was posted. I have a brand new 2005 base vibe that I have had for about a week. So far I have had this issue four times, when attempting to start the car when the engine is still warm it has difficulty starting (turns and turns, usually 2nd try starts up), Any ideas? Anyone else had this issue...?Thanks in advance for any help you can lend.Chris

[jake75]

Possibilities: Defective spark plug wires; Defective ignition coil.

[kostby]

Are you using high octane (90 or higher) gas in a base or AWD Vibe that really only requires regular (87 octane)?Strange as it seems, using higher octane gas when it is NOT required (e.g. premium in a Vibe GT) makes it harder to start the car.

[Digger]

Our merc. villager did that when it was new. The dealer said it was a weak fuel pump. They replaced it and all was fine That wasin 98 and it is still fine to this day.

[Flip-Side]

Some thing to try, turn the key to the on position for a few seconds before you start the car the second time. You should hear a faint whine from the fuel pump pressurizing the fuel system. If the problem goes away, your pump may not be up to snuff. Sorry to hear you are having problems. Hopefully some one has dealt with this problem before.

[csharrigan]

So it got checked out at the dealer today, they checked out the plug wires, and checked the fuel system pressure and found nothing, I mentioned the "recalibration" discussed on here regarding 2005's with slow start times. They didn't know what I was talking about, and I feel that this is my issue. Anyone know how to better explain it or where the dealer can get info on it?Thanks,Chris

[Toasted7]

I had mine (2005) in the shop yesterday for that same problem. It has happened to me about a dozen times or so over the 3 months I have had the car. The dealer said it was a loose ground wire and that they cleaned it and reattatched it... and it fixed it. I will find out within a few weeks if I have the same problem again. It was an intermittent problem in the first place, that's why I didn't think the dealer would do anything for me, but I will just have to wait and see if it is ACTUALLY fixed.Hope that helps.

[binary]

Quote, originally posted by kostby »Are you using high octane (90 or higher) gas in a base or AWD Vibe that really only requires regular (87 octane)?Strange as it seems, using higher octane gas when it is NOT required (e.g. premium in a Vibe GT) makes it harder to start the car.Higher the octane - slower the burn. But with higher octane your ECM should be able to advance the timing a little to give some extra power. I haven't tested it - nor do I think it matters - but I've run 7k miles on regular and set a good MPG benchmark. Now I'm going with premi-yum to see if I get any increase in my MPG. As for the slow start - I'd consider that normal for a econo-four cylinder. It's running real lean and doesn't have a very strong electrical system or spark. You have to let it crank a little longer when warm. Turning off extras like A/C, 110v outlet, lights, etc can help. I have experienced the same thing - especially in hot humid weather.It could be a ground strap that's just boggered up - but a higher output battery can be a valid fix it too. I plan on upgrading mine to a duracell. I replaced my 'tour's 550cca battery with the largest Interstate I could find > 800cca and that fired right up. Did the same with my 87 5.0L - that accepted a 1100cca (woot!) and it would start hot, warm, cold, or frozen on the first turn of the key. Fuel lines froze - but it still spun fast enough to register 250RPM on the tach!

[csharrigan]

I don't know, I can't accept this as normal, I have driven econo four cylinders in all my cars, and none take so long to start, not to mention I know other people w/ vibes that don't have this problem, its absolutely ridiculous for a warm car to have to crank 10 sec. (sometimes more). Anyone know about the afforementioned recalibration.My battery is 560cca- came in the car.Chris

[Mase]

I had the same problem when I first bought the car. After I signed the purchase papers at the dealer, I went out to start the car and it wouldn't start! Took 3 tries, I think. Just imagine the look on my face. Shortly after, I replaced the stock battery with a much stronger aftermarket battery...Haven't had the problem since.I think it may have something to do with the little stock battery trying to turn the engine and run the fuel pump at the same time. Plus we have a returnless fuel system.

[joatmon]

I too would not accept ten seconds to start as being normal. Mine starts pretty quickly, and I have the original 310CCA battery that came in the 2003 and 2004 models, you have a battery supposedly almost twice as strong as mine. It could be an electrical connection problem like Toasted7's car had. Could be a weak fuel pump, something in the computer. Did you try the pause between ignition and start Flip-Side suggested? I suggest you try to figure out a repeatable way to have the problem, so that you can demonstrate it to the dealer. Did the dealer see it take ten seconds to start? Did you get them to start another new vibe on the lot to see if it took ten seconds to start?

[NSimkins]

Quote, originally posted by csharrigan »I mentioned the "recalibration" discussed on here regarding 2005's with slow start times. They didn't know what I was talking about, and I feel that this is my issue. Anyone know how to better explain it or where the dealer can get info on it?I mentioned this here:http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=17035From what I heard, it pertained to an upgrade (or reflash with new programming) of the ECU to fix this fluke. The dealer is just being lazy if they won't look this up because it should be in TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) form or they can just call their tech assistance number to get more information.The issue is random and isn't reproducable consistently.

[cknight725]

Quote, originally posted by binary »Higher the octane - slower the burn. But with higher octane your ECM should be able to advance the timing a little to give some extra power. ... Assuming the ECM is not hard programmed with an advance range with an upper limit below what running 90 octane would allow, because they never intended it to run 90 octane ...Which has almost always been the case when Cunsumer Reports, Dateline and anyone else tests to see if running higher octane is better ...

[csharrigan]

I had my appointment today to look into the warm starting issue. They had it for a couple hours, and I mentioned to them the ecu problem that I have read about here. They couldn't duplicate problem, which I assumed they wouldn't be, I have no way to tell when it happens. It usually cranks and cranks first shot, and then starts second try, or will crank 10-15 senconds and then start. The service consultant told me to have it towed there when it happens, although I don;t know how this will help them because I dont get any lights, nor and most times it starts second time. I guess it's not a big deal but it's annoying as hell. Does anyone know where I can get the actual GM published information regarding the problem?Thanks,Chris

[mikey00]

The ECU problem only pertains to the Matrix not the Vibe. It has to do with the ECU not recognizing the chip in the key and therefore not starting. The chip in the key is part of the engine imobilizer system which the Matix has and the Vibe does not.And I agree with you, that there is not much sense in towing in the car when it won't start, unless you can get it there really fast and they will look at it really fast while it still has the starting problem. Not much chance of that happening.

[vibebob]

I've had a hard to start problem too. my vibe is about 3 months old. it is a real quirky problem, I might go 3-4 weeks and not have any trouble, then outta no where it happens then goes away for another buncha weeks. I won't bother taking it in until/unless it just won't start.

[csharrigan]

I hear ya, I just find it ridiculous. Its obviously something computer/emissions related, because, from my basic knowledge, and from what mechanics tell me its much "harder," to start a cold engine than a hot/warm one, so some control system isn't efficiently adjusting components to have a successful start. I do a lot of driving, and I drive around patients pretty frequently, its not possible for me to tell a patient, "hear my car not wanting to start?, yea, the dealer needs me to have it towed so they can correct it, I'll call you a cab." Mikey00, from what I have heard, the immobilizer isn't the issue in the vibe, and a recalibration must be done to the ecu.Any other info guys? Weather is starting to get cold here, and if its going to get progressively worse (weather, and age,) I would like to get it straightened out.Chris

[micbarric]

Last week, Toyota released yet another TSB concerning the hot start problem. The '06 models are included :All 5 pages can be found here:http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Toy....html

[jstant01]

I'm getting ready to take my 2005 in to the dealer for this exact issue. I've posted on other Forum's and no one seems to have a clear "this is the problem" answer. A question for you (and others) - do you hear a brief "thunking" sound when it does finally start? My car makes a brief thunk, thunk sound (like a sewing machine sounds) for a few brief moments after the delayed warm restart. If I didn't know better, I'd say it sounds almost like a bad rod, but it disappears after a few seconds and isn't heard on a cold start or during normal engine operation.Someone told me that it might be some sort of emissions component causing the warm start issue and making the sound. I'm just curious if anyone else has heard that sound, and had a successful fix, so I can tell the dealer maybe where to look.Thanks! As with everyone else, my car always starts, but it is frustrating to sit there and crank, and if someone borrows it, I have to warn them to not give up on cranking it to start. This is 2005 for goodness sakes - we're not talking about a Model T here!

[nortsr]

It just does not make sense to me....If the Matrix has this problem and has a solution for the problem....Isn't it the same damn ignition and motor in the Vibe....and then....Why would it not also be a solution for the Vibe. I would print out the Matrix TSB that you see on this board and take it to your Vibe dealer and question this!!!!

[jstant01]

Hi there - I recognize you from another Forum, and you probably recognize me. You gave me the tip about turning the key to wait, which did seem to help some. As you can see, however, I'm still attempting to find an answer about the "clunking" sound.As for your question about Vibe vs. Matrix, the answer in regards to the ignition is no. From what I understand, the Matrix has a chip in the key that a sensor "reads" which tells the ECU its OK to start the car. This is a security device. GM has something similar on some of its other models called "Passlock." However, my Vibe does not have this feature, and I don't believe it was available on any of the Vibes.Thus, the Matrix problem has to do with this security feature. The ECU wasn't recognizing the chip, so no start. The Vibe issue (at least in my case) is fuel-related. It cranks, and when it does finally start, it often stumbles a bit. This may or may not be happening on the Matrix as a issue separate from the "key/ECU" problem.Hope that makes sense. I know what I'm trying to explain, but it might be kind of fuzzy in writing. As you know, I'm also trying to find out about the "clunking" sound in my engine when I have a warm restart.

[micbarric]

"...the Matrix has a chip in the key that a sensor "reads" which tells the ECU its OK to start the car."The key/chip issue has indeed caused starting problems, but I believe it would occur no matter what the engine temp, hot or cold.The latest TSB specifically mentions "hot soak" starting problems and there is no mention of the security key/chip in the bulletin.Here is a link to the forum where I found the latest TSB:http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15There have been previous TSB's released to "fix" the hot start problem which had Toyota dealers replacing the ECU or the fuel pump. Apparently this problem has been difficult for Toyota to solve. I hope that when Pontiac finally releases its own version of the fix, it will be the real "fix".

[mikey00]

I don't know of any logical explanation for it, but the original Matrix starting problem caused by the ECU not reading the chip on the key was during a hot start. You may never see a TSB on the Vibe for the Vibe starting issue because it is not widespread like the Matrix issue.

[csharrigan]

My issue is still not resolved! Any Ideas? A contact a Pontiac that could check into any known issues. Both dealerships I have tried can't find an issue since its not reproducible and doesn't store a code, and claim there is no documented issue.Yea, I do have the little thunking but I had a friend start it the other day when it didnt start the first time, and the "thunking" was definately from the AC compressor... I'm sure it does it all the time, and I am just listening harder when the damn thing doesnt wanna start!HELP MEEEE, I am aggravated.

[jstant01]

It's interesting that you mention the A/C compressor. I had mine in to dealer a few weeks ago because of a constant metallic sound when the compressor engaged. They told me they took the whole thing apart, cleaned it, adjusted the A/C clutch and it was OK. Well, on the way home, I heard the sound again as soon as I turned my A/C on.The thunking sound is only there when I have the warm restart problem, I'm almost sure of it. For instance, when I started the car this morning (40 degrees, sitting overnight), it fired right up and there was no thunking sound. When I got to the gas station, was inside for a few minutes, and came back out, it hesitated a bit before starting, and the thunking sound was there until I pulled away. Once underway, no thunk.It is frustrating, and I wish someone had the answer. No one seems to though, and the dealers look at you like you're nuts. I'm not a mechanic by any means, so I'm really clueless about the whole thing. I have found, however, that as someone else suggested, if I turn the key and wait about 10 seconds before starting it up, it seems to start better. Of course, that is frustrating in and of itself. When you pay 15,000+ for a brand new car, it shouldn't be too much to ask that it starts up right away every time!

[Toasted7]

Well I am joining in with the "frustrated as @#$&" group... my dealer can't reproduce the problem and they are not sure how to fix it. My car has to sit for about an hour or two (after it has ran for a while and warmed up) then try to start it and it takes a while to start. Paid that much for a new car... I would like it to start reliably.

[csharrigan]

Come on folks there has got to be a nit picky 2005 owner that has had the problem and had it resolved! Jstant, I have a feeling that regardless of your having the switch on, on a cold start the car doesn't engage the compressor so there isn't such a heavy load. I am not positive about the vibe, but I know of other newer vehicales that do this.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by jstant01 »It's interesting that you mention the A/C compressor. I had mine in to dealer a few weeks ago because of a constant metallic sound when the compressor engaged. They told me they took the whole thing apart, cleaned it, adjusted the A/C clutch and it was OK. Well, on the way home, I heard the sound again as soon as I turned my A/C on.I feel your pain there...

[Skyline84]

I bought a 2005 Vibe a few weeks ago, and so far it has done this about 3 times. Last night it took me about 3-4 tries to start, and then when it did start it spat and spuddered until it's RPM's reved up. GRRR it is very frusterating. Especially since I just got rid of a car that I had nothing but trouble with.

[redvibe05]

I have a 2005 that did it the first couple months I owned it, I was also very frustrated and ready to rip into the service department. I decided to have a cool head and see if it does it with a pattern so I could help them diagnose it. Well, as soon as I started paying attention it has never did it again ! It only did it the first 500 miles ever since it has been perfect, and the car is now a year old with 5,300 miles on it. The only thing I can think of is a computer glitch that worked itself out eventually. I had the exact same symptoms as you all are talking about too !!!

[jasonvibe]

I think it happened to me today. But it was cold out. The car was parked for 10 min. Took 3- 2 second tries to start. Before it never took more that one 2 second turn. My motorcycle buddies with EFI bikes usually wait till the fuel pump pressurizes the system before pushing the button. I have been that way on all EFI cars,(5) in the past. Turn to on, wait 2 seconds then turn to start. Which saves wear on the starter. I have only had to replace 2 starters, both @ 150k+ miles on work vans. This may be just an issue with the "drive by wire"> Started in the 2005 FWDs. The AWD 2005 like mine don't have this to my knowledge. I hope this quirk was just a fluke this one time for me. I will say, every time I start the car, hot or cold. The engine RPMs jump up quickly for a couple seconds. Then settle down to a lower level. Which is something I am not used to. I will say this is my first EFI 4 banger I have owned. So I suppose this is normal.

[csharrigan]

LoL, I had a patient in my car today, and he was like, I really like the ride and interior of your car, and then he mentioned reading an article about the vibe when it first came out and the "venture" between GM, and Toyota... He then added "pontiac looks with toyota reliability," I just nodded. We had to make a quick stop and when we got back in the car it didn't want to start: turned and turned first shot, second shot started after 5 sec hold and fluttered/shook for a couple secs.... I said "yep, old toyota reliability."More aggravated everytime it does it.

[jstant01]

redvibe05: "I have a 2005 that did it the first couple months I owned it,"...I sure hope that happens to mine. I'm going on my 5th month of owndership, and nothing has changed since the beginning.The more this happens, the more convinced it must be a fuel pump issue. Sometimes it cranks like it isn't getting any fuel. Other times, it acts almost like its "flooded" - i.e. cranks and stumbles a bit until it catches and flushes the excess fuel out.Anyhow, I will say, that in my case, the majority of the time, if I turn the key and wait say 10-15 seconds, it starts much more reliably. However, I still maintain that having to do that is RIDICULOUS on a brand new car. My 1985 fuel injected Cavalier never did that, even when it had 200,000+ miles on it. Next question - how do you fix it? One of the other posts said something about "live bywire" on 2005s being a problem. What on earth is that? All I want is for my freaking car to start when I turn the key! Is that too much to expect of a vehicle in 2005? And what the heck is the clunking sound? This is very frustrating for those of us who are experiencing this problem!

[csharrigan]

So I am still having the issue.... really sucks. I called the pontiac support number, and didn't have any info on the issue, I informed of the problem, and that I wasn't the only one, and dealer can't diagnose. I mentioned the issue that 2005 matrix/corollas w/ same issue have a TSB out. For the people here that keep saying the vibe isn't affected by that TSB because it is related to the car not recognizing the "key chip," that is false, the ECM/PCM TSB for the toyota's isn't related to the other-- Spoke with (2) toyota techs that looked into it for me. I think it is very possible that it is the same issue and Pontiac/Toyota communication is lacking/non-existant. The rep at Pontiac customer support offered me two free oil changes for my troubles-- bogus, I just want the issue fixed. He supposedly sent the info to the "technical engineering dept." After doing a bunch of research I found a phone number to a Toyota tech line, and although they did acknowledge that the vibe does have the same drivetrain as the matrix, they wouldn't answer if it were possible that the vibe could be affected similarly-- Blah I am getting frustrated, the car has been doing it more lately, I kind of hope it progresses and gets really bad so at least the dealerships can't say they can't reproduce or find nothing wrong... I remember someone here working for NUMMI, I wonder if they know how similar the ECM/PCM is.... Anyone else here still having the issue?

[Jaxy]

I am having that same issue. 2005 Base Vibe with 11,500 miles I've had since April. Just started doing this in the last 2 mos - and it seems to be progressing in frequency.

[Pick]

My 05 with 17k miles has done it since brand new.Sometimes when the car is warm and has been turned off for an hour or so, i try to start it and it will have to crank over for about 10 seconds. I used to try to start for about 5 secs then try again and again, i have finally had it, i just hold the key on until the POS starts. Usually takes about 10 seconds when it does that approx 1 or 2 times a week

[jstant01]

Yep, mine is still doing it too. Although it does seem to actually start better on a warm start now that it's cold outside. This seems to be something that is unique to the 2005 models. Does anyone know if they changed something about how the Vibe starts with the 2005 "refreshening?" I read somewhere about "live wire" or something like that, which means nothing to me, since I'm not a mechanic-type person. Just seeking some potential "maybes" for when I get the car to the dealer soon.

[goodvibrations]

Ive had my vibe 05 base automatic, since August 05 car was built in June 05. Ive have not experienced any starting problems with mine. I wonder if it is the vibes that were built earlier in 2005 and manufacturer corrected the problem but did advise anyone? It sounds like quite a few of you are experiencing this problem.

[csharrigan]

By your statement and others with late production 2005 vibes it makes me think that the problem is definately related to the toyota tsb, as the problem was corrected in the matrix/corolla by the end of the model year. Also, the problem only affected 2005 models, and there were no physical changes in the drivetrain... only computer related performance and tuning alterations. The communication lines between general motors/toyota regarding mechanics/troubleshooting in the vehicle are non-existant/minimal, which truly is a shame.... It's obvious that general motors is going to be pretty much clueless since they didn't design the engine/tranny..... It makes Vibe owners w/ obscure problems wish they had bought the toyota....

[vibebob]

I posted earlier that I had the same problem. It has happend several times the first part of the month, but the last week or so, nothing. turn the key and it starts right up. It is almost impossible to track down something this intermitent If it was under certain conditions, like shut off for 10 minutes then try to start, outside temperature, humidity .. something, it would be easier to diagnose. I'm not going to worry about it until it just won't start.

[csharrigan]

I would say I could accept it, however my crank times seem to be getting longer and I worry for the day when it won't start...its getting colder and I cant imagine being stranded--today it was 25 degrees... and it truly annoys me that I have to crank a new car for over 10 secs to get it started--even more so that I retired a 15 year old car that started as soon as i hit the key.

[AppleBoy69]

My 2005 Just went in for this problem, I brough with me the toyota service bulletins for the Matrix and Corolla's I found on here. This was my third visit for this problem. First i was told this is normal for GM cars, second time I had to yell at the guy an low and behold there was an acutual problem and were able to duplicate it.GM said there is a new service bulletion for a no start condion and it is to replace the cars computer. Its on order and will be in next week! Will let everyone know if this fixes this problem! (probly not but i have my fingers crossed!)

[vibebob]

what is a pisser is that it doesn't happen with any frequency. I've gone 3-4 weeks with out the problem, then it happens for a couple of times and then goes away for another couple of weeks. Is the service bulletin about this very intermitant problem ?

[Toasted7]

Please enlighten us on anything you find out about it. Wondering if they will replace the computer if it is an intermittant problem or ONLY if it will not start? Mine has been doing better (ie. actually starting quickly most of the time) since it has gotten colder, but I have still had the issue a few times in the last month. I have had my car in the shop for this issue twice now and the third time, it better get fixed. I have also noticed a significant drop in my gas mileage since I had it in for service last time as well... I'm going to have them check that out as well.

[AppleBoy69]

Search for "hot soak" thread!There is now a TSB for the Vibe which intails the Power Train Computer Modual to be replaced.Mine is on order hopefully this fixes the issue *fingers crossed*

[CFD911]

my sis just took hers in for the same problem. they couldn't get it to do it!they said if it starts up in 10 seconds then it is fine, if I was there I would have told them "who let's there BRAND NEW car turn for 10 sec expecting it to start. it shoudl start right away, obviously there is a problem"so she is goign to keep taking it back every couple weeks I think until they do somthing, and I will start taking mine every couple of weeks cause mine is starting to do the same!I suggest doign the same thing keep nagging them till they do somthing about it. but hey that is me

[jstant01]

Well, I'll let you all know what happens after tomorrow! Recently the starting "quirk" has gotten worse, and today my check engine light came on shortly after starting up (from a cold start actually) to come home for work. So off to the dealer I go! I'm hoping they can get to the bottom of this!