Coolant Change

[jake75]

2003 Vibe built Oct. 2002, bought Jan. 2003. Therefore was thinking I ought to do the coolant change about now (2 yrs or 24,000 miles whichever comes first?). Only has 11,400 miles. Service Tech at dealer told me that he didn't think it was necessary I presume becasue I only have 11,400 miles. Pontiac dealer is $69.99 for coolant flush and refill. What to do?

[ColonelPanic]

That's a tough call! I haven't ever been able to keep the mileage down enough to get anywhere near the recommend time intervals. Bought my Vibe in 01/03 (mfg 11/02) and ended up changing my coolant in 06/04 at 29,000.I would say, go ahead and do it - if not now, before winter. Your coolant probably isn't in that bad of a condition at the moment. But it may be worth it to you in the long run to get the old stuff out of there. I'd do it, but then again I'm kinda notorious for over-maintaining my vehicles. The $69 seems to be a fair price as well for this service.

[jake75]

When at dealer last month for oil change at about 11,000 miles I asked the service Tech about changing the coolant as the car was 2 years old [built in Oct. 2002 bought Jan 2003] and he said not to bother. Now I just rec'd a GM Mr. Goodwrench coupon for a $54.99 coolant change. Think I'll go ahead

[kcinmi]

I believe its best to stick to either the time or mileage limit on the coolant. Coolant can build up an electric charge over time and produce acids that will eat away at the metals in an engine.

[ColonelPanic]

Since you have the coupon now, I'd say go for it, while it's cheap.

[jake75]

Had the coolant change done today clutching my $54.99 coupon. I'm not sure what they use. Invoice reads 24XS Power Flush Cooling System 15.10 (in labor column)2 12346290 Coolant @ 12.24 = 24.90 (in parts column)1 Dex/Flsh Coolflsh 14.95 (in parts column) It was about 20 minutes from the time they drove my car to the service bay and returned it. This dealer (probably like most) likes to sell you a "service package" every 6M which is mostly inspect this and inspect that. I don't go along with that. Bought a 10 oil change card at dealer for $120. So far have had one tire rotation done with an oil change for $20, another for free with a coupon at the dealer, and this coolant change for $55 so my maintenance for 2 years will be about $100 total.

[ragingfish]

Hmmm....had the car 2 years, just hit 49000 miles...never had any fluids changed (other than oil) and no maintenance done other than oil and tire rotations...guessing i might be overdue???

[ragingfish]

Heard a nasty rumor it's about time for a tranny flush/fill...grrrrrrrrrrr....that's like $200

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »Jake, I was in at a Toyota dealer today making an app. to have the coolant changed and the service consultant said he thought it used Dex Cool... I told him no it doesn't and I will bring in the owners manual to prove it.... He was afraid if he added something to the dex cool it would cause a problem... But the thing is, the 03 Vibe does not have Dex Cool at all... I just laughed and said I will see you later this week.I need to pick up a cabin filter also... Well I hope the dealer put the right stuff in. Can anyone tell by the "number"?

[jake75]

Here's what I found on the internet:DEX COOL®5-year/150,000-mile Protection Silicate and phosphate-free. See your owner's manual for the type of coolant right for your vehicle. Never mix one type of coolant with the other.1 gal. 12346290 55 gal. 12377963So evidently theyput in this Dex Cool.Is this a problem?

[jake75]

also found this:DEX-COOL Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant.By Scott Mueller A revolutionary new type of long life engine coolant is now being used in ALL '96 GM cars and trucks except for Geo and Saturn. It is called Dex-Cool, and can be distinguished by it's unique orange color. Dex-Cool is manufactured for GM by Texaco Havoline, and is rated to last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first. Dex-Cool is an Ethylene Glycol based high performance coolant that contains unique corrosion inhibitors, which are different from anything else on the market. Dex-Cool is vastly superior to conventional coolants, which use silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites, nitrates, and amine additives to eliminate corrosion. These additives are abrasive to water pump seals, and silicates are especially unstable and drop out of solution and form a gel after time. All of these conventional inhibitors deplete after a short time, which is why conventional coolant must be changed every year. The unique corrosion inhibitor technology in Dex-Cool is based on the use of two organic acids, which are synergistic and combine to form carboxylates. Texaco refers to this as Organic Acid Technology (OAT), or Carboxylate Technology. The corrosion inhibitors used in Dex-Cool deplete very slowly thus eliminating the need for traditional additives, or frequent change intervals. Note that contrary to what some may say (or write), you can indeed mix Dex-Cool and conventional coolant with no ill effects. However, if there is more than 10% of conventional coolant in the system this will reduce the concentration of the Carboxylate such that conventional coolants change intervals must be followed. In other words, if you mix it, you can't leave it in for 100,000 miles or 6 years, but instead should treat a mix just like conventional coolant and change it every year until the concentration of Dex-Cool is over 90%.

[jake75]

And this to the contrary:August~September 6.2 /6.5T NEWSLETTER Page 3 General Motors has a new anti-freeze coolant called Dex-Cool. Dex-Cool is pink in color and was used on most 1995 and above vehicles. Dex-Cool is a long life anti-freeze with a service life of 5 years or 100,000 miles; which ever occurs first. NEVER mix conventional anti-freeze or conventional cooling system additives with Dex-Cool. If by mistake conventional anti-freeze coolant or cooling system additives are added to Dex-Cool, the cooling system must be flushed thoroughly with clean tap water and the Dex-Cool replaced. It's simple: if your anti-freeze coolant is pink, add Dex-Cool or clean tap water only; if your anti-freeze coolant is green, you may use standard anti-freeze coolant and conventional cooling system additives.If you discover you have Dex-Cool in your cooling system, I suggest you carry a spare gallon of Dex-Cool. At present, Dex-Cool is not easy to find except at General Motors dealers or specialty repair shops. The GM part number for Dex-Cool is 12346290 for a gallon container. A gallon of Dex-Cool should cost about $11.00.Now, you say, "why should I use this stuff?", "I should switch back to conventional anti-freeze." There are some benefits to using Dex-Cool you do not get using conventional anti-freeze coolant. Dex-Cool has far superior heat transfer properties then conventional anti-freeze coolant. This alone is helpful in allowing the radiator and fan assemblies to remove heat from the cooling system under engine stress conditions such as towing or very high ambient temperatures. Dex-Cool is also silicate free. Silicate build up in radiators and engine blocks causes engine temperatures to increase due to restricted coolant flow. Dex-Cool should help solve this problem. Dex-Cool's anti-freeze protection can be the same as conventional anti-freeze coolants, however, you will need more of it to maintain the same freeze protection. A 1995 6.5T engine has a 26.5 quart cooling system capacity. To maintain -20°F freeze protection you would need about 12 quarts (3 gallons) of Dex-Cool, where, using conventional antifreeze coolant, you would need about 8 quarts (2 gallons). On the other end of the scale, Dex-Cool offers about the same boil over protection as conventional anti-freeze coolant. Using a 50/50 mixture of Dex-Cool and clean tap water, and a 15 lb. pressure cap on the cooling system, boil over would not occur until the fluid reached 265°F. This is impressive, however, I would never want to see my temperature gauge reach 265°F.I have received a number of calls asking if an older vehicle that did not come from the factory with Dex-Cool can be converted to use Dex-Cool. At present, I would not use Dex-Cool in a vehicle that did not come from the factory with Dex-Cool in the cooling system. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to flush out all the conventional anti-freeze coolant from the cooling system of an older vehicle, and any conventional anti-freeze would contaminate the Dex-Cool.Please remember, Dex-Cool is a Ethylene Glycol based anti-fieeze and all precautions on the container should be followed and disposal should be within state and local laws. M&S

[futseal04]

If you are going to shell out that much money for Dex-Cool, you should just spend a little more and get Evans NPG. I have extolled its virtues in numerous posts, so I will skip all that jazz and just get directly to the link.http://www.evanscooling.comHere are the basic specs: Boiling Point: 369° F for NPG versus 224° F for 50/50 "EGW" ethylene glycol and water (at atmospheric pressure - 0.0 psig) - benefits include elimination of afterboil and overheating, allowing temperature excursions above those for EGW, faster recondensation of vapor inside the engine, low (2.0 - 4.0 PSIG) or non-pressurized system, no coolant loss operating in high ambient temperatures, and the capability to increase thermostat temperature settings if desired. Molar Heat of Vaporization: 12,500 Cals/Mole for NPG versus 9,720 Cals/Mole for EGW - benefits include faster recondensation because less vapor is produced, and a reduction of hot spots because of improved liquid to metal contact. All of which eliminate the occurrence of "Film Boiling" and the accumulation of excessive surface vapor. Surface Tension: 35 Dynes/Cm for NPG versus 56 Dynes/Cm for EGW -- benefits include small vapor bubble sizes, allowing for faster recondensation of vapor and increased liquid to metal interface, and decreased area of nucleate boiling centers, again increasing liquid to metal interface. Freezing Point: -70° F for NPG versus -38° F for EGW. NPG does not freeze, it crystallizes and supercools (contracts slightly and becomes a viscous slurry). Toxicity: EGW is considered a hazardous waste whereas NPG is not as PG is used as a food additive and pharmaceutical base fluid. Vapor Pressure: 590 mm of Hg for EGW at 212° F versus 18 mm of Hg for NPG. This is the major reason for the dramatic decrease in cylinder liner and pump cavitation.

[jake75]

Try not laugh, but I bought this Vibe 1-27-2003 and today, to see what color the coolant in the overflow reservoir was, was the first time I had ever popped the hood. The $55 cost for the Dexcool flush 'n fill was in line with the charge for coolant changes using the green stuff. I rely on the "experts" to do the necessary service though I am keen on using coupons and specials to reduce my cost. I'm not exactly the target audience for Amsoil or Evans NPG coolant.

[futseal04]

Maybe you are and you just don't know it. Evans is a lifetime coolant. Put it in, and you won't have to mess with it until you replace your motor. Then, you won't have to worry about what color any more.....

[kostby]

Silverawd26You're probably aware of this, but be sure you DO NOT get the cabin air filter at the Toyota dealer!The Matrix cabin filter is NOT the same dimensions as the Vibe and they are not interchangeable. Won't even 'force-fit'. I tried.

[kostby]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 ». Paid $ 30.91 out the door for it... I talked the guy into giving me 10% off.... OUCH! I think I paid about $25.00 for mine. (Owner is a personal friend, though I didn't buy the car there!) Parts guy said, "Remind me to give you the same price next time."The Matrix one is only about 18.00 list, and is usually discounted another $3.00 or so. Someone mentioned that WIX makes a replacement cabin filter (probably makes all of them, in fact). I'll have to check AutoZone or Advance Auto Parts next time I'm in one.

[ToolGuy]

Silver...http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=11745

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by futseal04 »Maybe you are and you just don't know it. Evans is a lifetime coolant. Put it in, and you won't have to mess with it until you replace your motor. Then, you won't have to worry about what color any more.....I would be skeptical of a "lifetime" coolant. Seems logical that all "inhibitors" lose their effectiveness at some point, and that there would be some sort of flaking etc. that would be best removed.I did send a e-mail to the Pontiac dealer asking about the use of Dexcool in my 2003 Vibe. The service tech called and said that Dexcool was the original coolant in the Vibe. I told him that prior to 2005 the Vibe did not use Dexcool. He also said that though you are not supposed to mix coolant that they power flush the coolant system so there really would not be any mixing of old and new coolants. Since the new 2005 Vibe uses Dexcool I assume it is safe to use in that engine. And from what I read, mixing is not a problem except that you still have to change every two years. Anyway, the serviced tech is going to check further and get back to me. He was very nice and I told him this would be a learning experience for both of us.Everyone talks about Toyota's red coolant? How does that differ from Dexcool?

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »Well, got the coolant changed today and the dealer put in the same stuff that came with it... So in another 30,000 miles or 2 years, whichever comes first, it will be time to change it again.What was the "Part No." on your service ticket of the stuff that came with it?

[jake75]

"I did send a e-mail to the Pontiac dealer asking about the use of Dexcool in my 2003 Vibe. The service tech called and said that Dexcool was the original coolant in the Vibe. I told him that prior to 2005 the Vibe did not use Dexcool. He also said that though you are not supposed to mix coolant that they power flush the coolant system so there really would not be any mixing of old and new coolants. Since the new 2005 Vibe uses Dexcool I assume it is safe to use in that engine. And from what I read, mixing is not a problem except that you still have to change every two years. Anyway, the serviced tech is going to check further and get back to me. He was very nice and I told him this would be a learning experience for both of us."The service tech never got back to me. So - I am in the position of having a '03 Vibe with a coolant consisting of Dexcool plus whatever minor amount of original coolant did not get removed in the power flush procedure. Read a lot on the internet about Dexcool problems, class actions etc. My take on all of this is that I will be o.k. so long as I replace the coolant in 2 to 3 years and not expect to leave it in for 5 years. [Was kind of scary that "Mr. Goodwrench" did not know that the '03 and 04 Vibes did not come with Dexcool.] My experience is that if I contact GM/Pontiac, I will just get a form letter advising me to check with my dealer as they are the best source for information.

[ToolGuy]

Per the GM service manual and GM site...The Vibe OEM antifreeze is pink tinted conventional Antifreeze not DEX-COOL. If the engine coolant system is serviced under warranty Dex-Cool should be used to keep the same color. Mixing Dex-Cool with the OEM Antifreeze will have no effects to the engine cooling system. So the Toyota coolant is nothing special and DEX-COOL may be used. When I change out mine I will be using DEX-COOL.

[jake75]

Well that explains why the Service Tech at the dealer observed "pink" coolant in the '04 Vibe on their lot and he assumed it was Dex-Cool. Hard to believe there can be so much confusion over what coolant to use and such strong opinions in regard to mixing coolants etc.[I think I even saw something on the GM website thagt said don't mix coolants.]

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 »Your not suppose to mix the coolant.... Toyota Dealer called the Pontiac Dealer to confirm this and they put the 2 year/30,000 mile coolant back in. The chemist in me tells me that the following is likely correct."Note that contrary to what some may say (or write), you can indeed mix Dex-Cool and conventional coolant with no ill effects. However, if there is more than 10% of conventional coolant in the system this will reduce the concentration of the Carboxylate such that conventional coolants change intervals must be followed. In other words, if you mix it, you can't leave it in for 100,000 miles or 6 years, but instead should treat a mix just like conventional coolant and change it every year until the concentration of Dex-Cool is over 90%."

[ToolGuy]

I just quoted from the GM service manual the GM dlr information site and what Jake stated is correct too, the info I have states this, I just did not type it out in the above. But besides mixing the two, my point was the Toyota is regular antifreeze just tinted and if drained/flushed you can use DEXCOOL with no issues. The Toyota antifreeze is nothing special and they should not charge people more for it but they do. Years ago when DEXCOOL first came out people were all confused and did not know the right answer, it has all settled down now. I wrench on all my own stuff, never take them in unless I cannot physically do the job...

[ToolGuy]

Here is more...DEX-COOL Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant.By Scott Mueller A revolutionary new type of long life engine coolant is now being used in ALL '96 GM cars and trucks except for Geo and Saturn. It is called Dex-Cool, and can be distinguished by it's unique orange color. Dex-Cool is manufactured for GM by Texaco Havoline, and is rated to last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first. Dex-Cool is an Ethylene Glycol based high performance coolant that contains unique corrosion inhibitors, which are different from anything else on the market. Dex-Cool is vastly superior to conventional coolants, which use silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites, nitrates, and amine additives to eliminate corrosion. These additives are abrasive to water pump seals, and silicates are especially unstable and drop out of solution and form a gel after time. All of these conventional inhibitors deplete after a short time, which is why conventional coolant must be changed every year. The unique corrosion inhibitor technology in Dex-Cool is based on the use of two organic acids, which are synergistic and combine to form carboxylates. Texaco refers to this as Organic Acid Technology (OAT), or Carboxylate Technology. The corrosion inhibitors used in Dex-Cool deplete very slowly thus eliminating the need for traditional additives, or frequent change intervals. Note that contrary to what some may say (or write), you can indeed mix Dex-Cool and conventional coolant with no ill effects. However, if there is more than 10% of conventional coolant in the system this will reduce the concentration of the Carboxylate such that conventional coolants change intervals must be followed. In other words, if you mix it, you can't leave it in for 100,000 miles or 6 years, but instead should treat a mix just like conventional coolant and change it every year until the concentration of Dex-Cool is over 90%.

[futseal04]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »I would be skeptical of a "lifetime" coolant. Seems logical that all "inhibitors" lose their effectiveness at some point, and that there would be some sort of flaking etc. that would be best removed.I think this says it all-Long Life, Stable Coolant. Increased from 40,000 (with EGW) to more than 400,000 miles. The system has been tested to 400,000 miles in a Class 8 Detroit Diesel engine running at North American Van Lines. After 400,000 miles additives have decreased by only 11%, still within initial manufacturing tolerances for the coolant.In fact, on the site, there is an article with a picture of a diesel piston with 400K on it (i think) and you can still see the manufacturers' part number.As I have said before, this stuff works. Not only on paper (as a Nuclear Engineer I have a background in thermodynamics), but in real life (have had it in all my vehicles since I found out about it). I know that everyone will form their own opinion, but if you go to the site and read about it, you will see why it is far superior to Dex-Cool, or any other EGW-based coolant. Sure, it is more expensive at first, but you will save far more moolah in the long run.Also, keep in mind that if you ever mix anything with Dex-Cool, it becomes extremely corrosive (i.e. any non Dex coolant). At least, that is what mechanics tell me.Just my $.50

[ToolGuy]

Yep and always use Distilled Water with DEXCOOL... DEXCOOL keeps hoses in better coindition too. Detroit Diesel yipeeee!! We make tools for those engines! Huge tools I might add!

[futseal04]

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy » Detroit Diesel yipeeee!! We make tools for those engines! Huge tools I might add! Yeah....that piston was as big as my head.

Attached files

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy »Yep and always use Distilled Water with DEXCOOL... DEXCOOL keeps hoses in better coindition too. Detroit Diesel yipeeee!! We make tools for those engines! Huge tools I might add! Pardon my skepticism, but somehow I doubt that very many GM Dealer Service Depts. are buying distilled water to add to the Dex Cool. As I believe Phyliis Diller said, "Grow Up!".

[ToolGuy]

Me grow, up never!!!! Hate Phyliis Diller; milk shake... The distilled water comment was for the "do it yourselfer", like me and the benefit of others. I did not mention the dlrs. I am sure the GM dlrs have premixed!!!!! Or something else, rest assured...

[futseal04]

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »Pardon my skepticism, but somehow I doubt that very many GM Dealer Service Depts. are buying distilled water to add to the Dex Cool. As I believe Phyliis Diller said, "Grow Up!".I just have to ask the question.....when you hear things like this, do you really think that the dealer has YOUR best interest in mind? All you are to them is a dollar sign, and if they put in tap instead of distilled water, then there is the possibility that you will be back soon for more repairs.

[jake75]

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy »Me grow, up never!!!! Hate Phyliis Diller; milk shake... The distilled water comment was for the "do it yourselfer", like me and the benefit of others. I did not mention the dlrs. I am sure the GM dlrs have premixed!!!!! Or something else, rest assured...I guess premixed might make sense - probably get it in 55 gal drums. What did you mean by "something else"?

[Houston]

I visited my dealer today for a coolant change. They had there a new one to me - ServicePro Complete Premium Antifreeze Coolant, The container says it's fully compatible with all antifreezes. It also indicates it's good for five years or 150,000 miles. I had them flush the system and install this stuff, because it sure sounded good to me.Have any of you heard of this stuff?http://www.service-pro.com/

Attached files

[jake75]

Found this http://www.service-pro.com/sp5050Anti-Freeze.pdfDoesn't really tell you much.

[clwcrw]

So, just to try and clear this up in my head...My 2003 Vibe GT "should" have the pink Toyota coolant in it. (Although it doesn't exactly have a "pink" color to it by looking in the radiator.) That being said, my car has 50,000 miles on it, and more than likely has never had the coolant changed in it. So that leads to my question...Would it be OK to take it to a regular shop and have them do a flush and fill of the regular green stuff? If not, then I assume I should take it to the Toyota dealer and have them do a flush and fill of Toyota pink stuff correct?If I can do either option, I would go with the regular green stuff. It is just too common place, and if I ever needed to top it off on a trip, or was in the middle of no-where, then I know I could find the green stuff. But, I don't want to use the green stuff if it will cause problems in the motor. I will be changing it out every two years. I plan on keeping the Vibe for a while, but if the Toyota "pink" stuff is just tinted green stuff, then I feel I should stick with the green stuff...Try not to flame too much! This is my first car that is "built" by two different manufacturers...Chris Lansing, MI

[jake75]

No flaming. This coolant issue is most confusing. From what I have been able to discern, the original stuff in the 2003 and 2004 Vibes (no matter the color) was a 2 year coolant. You can replace with Dexcool if the old stuff is flushed out and get a 5 year/100M life on the Dexcool. If the Dexcool is diluted/contaminated with the old coolant by 10% or more it is o.k. but you should change again at 2 years/24M. Or just use the green stuff and change at 2 years/24,000 miles. The dealer charged me about $60 to flush and fill with Dexcool. I cannot remember when I have ever had to add antifreeze between changes except when a hose broke.

[clwcrw]

OK, on Sunday had the stock stuff flyshed out, and replaced with the common "green" stuff.I will be regular about flushing the coolant out every two years, and will certainly let everyone know if I have any problems along the way...ChrisLansing, MI

[JustinVGT]

I'm a little over due on getting my coolant flushed. My Vibe is over 3 years old and has about 45k miles, so it needs to be done. I called up several places, dealers and other shops like Jiffy Lube and Midas. The Pontiac dealer wants between $120-140, Toyota $130, Midas $90 for Dex, and Jiffy Lube $70 for Peak brand coolant. The Pontiac dealer said the price varies depending on the coolant, but from what I've read on here, people say to avoid the Dex coolant. Jiffylube is the cheapest and they only use one kind of coolant that they say is longterm high mileage coolant that can be used in all cars and it's made by Peak. Anyone know about Peak coolant? Good/bad? Midas is probably $70 for the regular non Dex coolant. So, I'm leaning towards going to Jiffy Lube or Midas. What do you all recommend?