Where to start? Absolutely no power!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:50 am

Sir Knocksalot is really ticking me off... It keeps having these spells where there's an excessive amount of hesitation, and you've practically gotta floor the damn thing to get it to move. The auto has to keep shifting back and forth - downshifting far too much.Over the weekend, I was heading back home and tried to drive up a pretty good sized mountain... The last time I went up there, no problems pulling it. It wasn't pulling strong by any stretch of the imagination, but it was sufficient - this car is very underpowered anyway, IMHO. But this time around, I found myself having to shift out of OD, turned off the A/C, kept the damn thing floored, and couldn't get it above 60. I had lots of issues through the mountains, to the point where I just kept the OD off the entire time, since the tranny kept having to downshift so frequently it became annoying. It's REALLY bad in the higher elevations - no power at all... Not so bad around home where the terrain is flatter and elevation is like 600', but it still isn't peppy...About the only way I can get any get-up-and-go outta this thing is to start with the tranny in first and wind it up, manually shifting. Yeah, that's good for the car. It isn't running rough - it idles like crap, but that's what it always has done... Sits there and shakes like a *bleep* at idle most of the time. Aside from that, it is reasonably smooth, but just lacks a tremendous amount of power...I don't know how to even get started on having this looked at... the dealer probably won't listen. Any things I can try first before I have to go deal with those guys?

SCVibe · Post by **SCVibe** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:05 am

Sorry to hear about your problems. I don't have the problem with the Vibe but had a similar problem with another car. You can check your spark-plugs (gap, signs of flooding) and wires (misfire), or possibly a clogged fuel filter, these are the least expensive possibilities. In my case the problem turned out to be a clogged/defective catalytic converter. It was replaced for FREE even though the basic warranty had expired, since the government makes manufacturers cover emissions equipment for (I believe) 75,000 of 80,000 miles.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:32 am

You have my sincere sympathies for all the trouble you are having with this carpmh013 had similar problems from a bad catalytic converter. Twice I think.with the coil on plug in these engines, it's hard to check plug wires, and the fuel filter is part of the fuel pump assembly inside the fuel tank under the rear seat, so it's not the easiest thing to check either. a vacuum leak? Has it done this for a long time, or is it a new development?Have you asked the "new" delaer about these performance issues?

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:50 am

It's all a very recent thing... Didn't start happening until last week. Kari drove the thing and was like, "umm, what's going on?" And sure enough, I noticed when I was driving it again that it didn't have much power... Sometimes it does fine, sometimes not... Strange.I did try to disconnect the battery cable when i got back home and did some idling, some stop-and-go driving, then some highway driving... It ran a lot better for yesterday, but today it's back to being sluggish. And I'll guess I'll add that the mileage has been suffering tremendously as of lately... What used to be around 30 on normal driving, I'm lucky to get between 20-25. I did get 29 on the trip though... The fuel filter is a concern, I may go ahead and replace that. The plugs I would hope *should* still be in good shape - 46K miles - but they'll probably get replaced too. And the air filter could probably be replaced...Other than that, I dunno... I haven't taken it by the new dealer yet.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:14 am

when you've got some time, read pmh's converter saga and campaign for dealer action at http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=2894Turns out I checked my plugs at 45K miles and posted a pic, here is what mine looked like then for comparison.(from rasermon's plug thread http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=5814 )since you reset the ECU and had it run better until it learned to act up again might mean that there is some sensor data that telling the ECU to alter performance. maybe a dealer's scan tool could be useful in identifying what is out of tolerance, but maybe not. problem is not bad enough to throw a CEL. It's a hassle to get dealer repair service, even if it is covered under warranty. for symptom of "Lack of Power" the vibe service manual suggests the following possible causes:air filterair inletMAF sensorfuel filter / fuel pump pressurefuel injectorsignition voltagespark plugsknock sensorexhaust system restrictionand then into nasty stuff like low compression, bad valve timing, worn camshaft, etc

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:20 am

The sensor deal did cross my mind... I wondered as I was in the mountains, if these cars had some sort of barometric pressure sensor... It appeared to me that when I dropped below 1000 ft, it had more power, but any higher and it was choking. It doesn't appear to be compensating for altitude... Or maybe something else, since I'm back down quite a ways now, and it still acts up (but not as bad as it did in the mountains.)A sensor reporting bad data back to the computer (but the data it sends is still within specs, so not extreme enough to trigger the CEL maybe?) sounds very possible...I remember the cat saga, I'll go revisit. With the occasional fart smell, I'd say my car may be a candidate for the cat/pcm replacement if I can convince the dealer to do it...

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:26 am

air is thinner at higher altitudes. I don't know if a thousand feet is significant enough to cause a critical change in air density though. altitude, air density, maybe a dirty MAF? doesn't seem to be the info here at genvibe ( ) but check out mistamatrix's MAF cleaning thread on a different site, might be worth a try, would only cost a can of brake cleaner if you're careful (and be sure to disconnect the battery first)

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:57 am

a bad cat would mean no power but the car would idle fine. A bad filter though would cause a problem yet UNLIKE an air filter there is no "checking" it. Its either pull it out and try and see if its plugged or just replace it anyway. But as mentioned you will need to go under the back seat and into the fuel tank.A dirty MAF would result in an engine light and the car would run fine just cut out at 2500RPMs.

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:27 am

Did you check on the Lemon Laws in your state yet. I would take a serious look at them. Maybe get a shiney 2005!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:52 am

I did check... 18 months/18,000 miles max. I'm at like 28 months/46,000 miles. http://www.in.gov/attorneygene....htmlI think I do deserve a new car though, dang it! *sigh*

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:09 am

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic Â»I did check... 18 months/18,000 miles max. I'm at like 28 months/46,000 miles. http://www.in.gov/attorneygene....htmlI think I do deserve a new car though, dang it! *sigh*In which case if it fit into the lemon law it would still be under warranty which would mean trip into the dealership and get er done.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:12 am

It's still under the extended warranty...it's just not getting fixed, unfortunately.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:25 am

Quote, originally posted by Kari Â»It's still under the extended warranty...it's just not getting fixed, unfortunately. Well if its a fuel filter, its classified as a wearable item... considered same as oil filters, spark plugs and such. However if its your converter, (and this may be different for US GM vehicles) but that part has a GM extended emissions warranty on it to 130,000km which I am not sure what that is in miles.Otherwise since he has extended warranty, have they taken a look to see exactly whats wrong with it and given reasons for not covering it?

03VibeGT6Spd · Post by **03VibeGT6Spd** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:27 am

There were a lot of good suggestions up above. It could be in need of a good valve lashing.I think your best bet is to take it to the dealer and make them keep it until it's fixed.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:35 am

Quote, originally posted by 03VibeGT6Spd Â»There were a lot of good suggestions up above. It could be in need of a good valve lashing.I think your best bet is to take it to the dealer and make them keep it until it's fixed.That probably goes back to the nasty noises it has been making for a while that the other dealer couldn't seem to hear....

03VibeGT6Spd · Post by **03VibeGT6Spd** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:43 am

Take it to a toyota dealer and ask them what think.From where I see it, Valve lashing is totally unknown to GM service department's.I have actully hear them say don't they have hyd lifters.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:48 am

Let's eliminate the obvious.Did you look at the engine air filter? If you have an intake (don't think so, but can't remember), have you performer intake air filter cleaning recently? If either needs to be addressed, do so, it could be as simple as that.If it's not that, my little knowledge of engines would make me guess the possibility of a bad O2 sensor...that happened in my mom's Grand Prix once. She went to hit the gas up a hill and barely anything happened...Regardless, if it's not a dirty filter, it's worthy of a dealer visit, unfortunately. Do you have an autozone nearby that can rent you a diagnostic reader, maybe you can track down the probelm yourself and tell the dealer what to fix, eliminating wasted money on labor?

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:54 am

I took the air filter out a couple weeks ago to check how dirty it was, wasn't too bad, but I'm going to replace it anyway - I replace it once a year, it's almost due. I do have an Auto Zone right down the road... Can their reader tell anything if the check engine light isn't on?

03VibeGT6Spd · Post by **03VibeGT6Spd** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:01 pm

I was going to suggest the O2 sensor but I have never seen one where it really killed the performance that bad.Your MPG will suffer badly but the car's CPU has defaults set that will keep it running it'll just be running real rich.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:09 pm

Quote, originally posted by 03VibeGT6Spd Â»Take it to a toyota dealer and ask them what think.From where I see it, Valve lashing is totally unknown to GM service department's.I have actully hear them say don't they have hyd lifters.Back when I was trying to get (what could be) the valve noise taken care of, I did talk to the local Toyota dealer... The service manager swore up and down that they never, ever do any valve lashing on these engines... I left rather frustrated and scratching my head... lol

Ponyota · Post by **Ponyota** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:57 pm

Quote, originally posted by 03VibeGT6Spd Â»I was going to suggest the O2 sensor but I have never seen one where it really killed the performance that bad.Your MPG will suffer badly but the car's CPU has defaults set that will keep it running it'll just be running real rich.O2 would throw the CEL. When my O2 sensor went out it did on mine anyway. Mine did run very rough at idle when it was out. I'd say the ECU is p'n out, if it were mine I'd have it changed out to see if it was the problem (but that's just me). I'm not sure what they cost but I'm sure it isn't cheap. It just seems your just having to many issues with the performance of your car for it to be something like air filters, plugs, etc. Don't rule it out, but I believe it's unlikely something simple and your constant problems are linked some how. Have you thought about the plug wires? Don't our plug wires have independent coils? Just throwing out ideas.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 1:12 pm

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»I worked for AutoZone for 6 months (in 2002) and did tests on starters, alternators, batteries, and did scans on the vehicles when customers came in and they needed a CEL.I don't know what other company scanners can do as they are generic when it comes to cars but to find a code there in MOST cases HAS to be an engine light (CEL) as you mentioned.Now Tech II which GM shops use can show readings and everything from air/fuel mixtures, to back pressure through the converter, missfires and such. Personally IMO since your not experiencing an engine light... it could be the converter or fuel filter.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 1:38 pm

Quote, originally posted by silverawd26 Â»Exactly Phil.... It kind of sounds like what Penny was having a problem with maybe... ? with her converter? yeah thats what I'm leaning towards. best bet would be to take it to any garage and get the back pressure through the converter checked.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Wed May 11, 2005 1:49 pm

Quote, originally posted by Ponyota Â»O2 would throw the CEL. When my O2 sensor went out it did on mine anyway. I know for a fact when the O2 went on our GP no CEL was triggered.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:00 pm

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish Â»I know for a fact when the O2 went on our GP no CEL was triggered.well in some cases it won't but in most cases will. All the ones I sold as repairs to were from CEL light being on and codes set.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:02 pm

Interesting. I wonder what kinda of failure triggers a light vs. what kind doesn't?

Jahntassa · Post by **Jahntassa** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:10 pm

If the 02 sensor reads nothing, it'll throw a CEL. If it's just f'ed up and gives dumb readings, it'd just affect performance, unless the computer is smart enough to tell the thing is going dumb.It idles rough, right? In my Probe, it did that when the spark plugs went.When the cat goes, you start losing high-end power. I couldn't get above 3k rpm after a while, and you can visibly see the exhaust move as it tries to push the air out...I'd definitely start with a plug check... The autozone guys can't tell you anything without a CEL, because they'll only diagnose the codes...

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:12 pm

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik Â»well in some cases it won't but in most cases will. All the ones I sold as repairs to were from CEL light being on and codes set.maybe the only people who knew they needed a repair were the ones with a CEL

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:16 pm

So is the theory here that 3 or 4 different things are probably wrong at once and causing the collective set of symptoms, or might there be one particular issue at the root of the entire problem?

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:38 pm

Quote, originally posted by Kari Â»So is the theory here that 3 or 4 different things are probably wrong at once and causing the collective set of symptoms, or might there be one particular issue at the root of the entire problem?start with a back pressure test of your converter.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:04 pm

Quote, originally posted by Kari Â»So is the theory here that 3 or 4 different things are probably wrong at once and causing the collective set of symptoms, or might there be one particular issue at the root of the entire problem?And oddly enough, a lot of these issues keep coming and going at random, and nothing I can figure out as far as how to recreate any of 'em. On the way to work yesterday afternoon, it felt sluggish... Tonight on the way home, it had some pep.One thing may be at the root: me, or maybe evil spirits. Other than that, I'm stumped at what it could be.

CyBeRjUnKiE · Post by **CyBeRjUnKiE** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:21 pm

Not to scare you or anything, I had similar problems with my car lagging power and so on. Not until recently my car had the CEL on, and it turns out that the lack of power and sluggish feel was a result of a blown head gasket. It was something that was happening for the last 2 1/2 years and has been depreciating ever since. Only until the CEL went off was the time I really getting noticeable problems with the car. My idle was crap, you would see the needle bouncing up and down slightly, or the revving of the engine just didn't sound smooth. When the engine is cold, the car felt pretty fine, but once it's warmed up, the car loses all power and starts putt putting away. Water would come out of the exhaust pipe which I didn't notice until later on, and white smoke would puff out occasionally, not enough for you to think anything is wrong. But it all added up, coolant leakage into the engine due to a blown head gasket, and was escaping through my exhaust. Check your coolant levels and see if you are going low on your coolant. If you are and don't see any puddles under your car, then chances are it may be leaking elsewhere. Take off the engine cover and check to see if there are any crustations forming around the spark plugs, this is also another indication that something dreadfully wrong. My car is currently in the dealership being repaired due to this problem. I would advise to follow many of the other people's comments by getting your car checked for other items as well. I think I will be investing in a ODB II reader, it will probably save me in guessing in the future, I'm sure it will for you too, may be a good idea. Good luck on your car, and I hope your fortunes are not as bad as mine.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Thu May 12, 2005 12:26 am

I'm voting for the evil spirits, then. I don't see how you could possibly be causing this many problems all at once...so yep, evil spirits.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Thu May 12, 2005 3:11 am

Hey CyBeRjUnKiE... if that coolant was going through your exhaust and in a large amount... keep an eye on your converter to.

CyBeRjUnKiE · Post by **CyBeRjUnKiE** » Thu May 12, 2005 4:50 am

Thanks for that heads up. How can I find out if my converter is damaged? I'm sure these guys at the dealer won't change it right away...but if I can tell them I'm having some problems with a particular part or describe to them what is wrong with my car I'm sure they'll replace it under the warranty, as long as I'm still in the zone. Anyways, I appreciate the heads up.**edit - I take it you mean the catalytic converter**

03VibeGT6Spd · Post by **03VibeGT6Spd** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:29 pm

o2 sensors don't always turn on the cel,and sometimes they go on and off.After thinking about it last night.A couple times ran into issue's like yours.Once being a sticking EGR valve and the other being a bad Prom and CPU.There is so many things that could cause your problems.I strongly suggest forcing the dealer to fix it.

ToolGuy · Post by **ToolGuy** » Thu May 12, 2005 9:34 pm

I would inspect the plugs for sure. Changed out the plugs in my PT at 21,000 because the engine developed a miss at idle. The owners manual states changer them at 30,000. I suspect bad fuel shortened their life, that is the only thing I can think of. No CEL was thrown either, I just could feel the miss. $5 for a set of new plugs... For the Cat, lots of them turn bright red when they start to clog and I have seen many cars driving down the road at night with a red glow from under the car. However, OBDII is very sensitive and if an O2 sensor were bad or the cat started to clog badly enough the O2 sensor would not be reading right and throw a code. I do suspect the cat though, some rattle when starting to go bad inside too. An O2 sensor can be weak too but still sending data back to the ECM. Some OEsrecommend changing at a certain interval before it actually fails. Fuel milage can drop from a weak O2 and not throw a CEL code. Never heard of a larger diag machine used in recent times, used to be called a scope. The Tech II can give techs just about everything they need now, snap shot and graphing etc. There also is a GM Flight Data Recorder, we make it. Usually when a customer comes in with an intermittent issue, dlrs give them this to take home. The unit fits in a cup holder and has a large red button on top, when the car acts up, the customer presses the button, thus recording real time data at that moment from the engine. The tech then can download it into a PC the observe what happened at the time. Very cool tool...I doubt it is the fuel filter... Part of the reason why auto companies took them out of the fuel lines and put them in the tank were because 1) no one changed them on a regular basis and 2) the in tank filter is a lot larger and will last well into the 100,000 range before needing changing.Since no CEL came on I would also suspect weak/bad injector or coil and I would also check fuel pump pressure. Low FP pressure will not cause a CEL to come on. Next time buy foreign, you will not have issues like this!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:37 pm

I've decided to go ahead and pull the plugs and replace 'em... I haven't even looked at them yet, they may not even need to be replaced, but screw 'em - it's getting new ones anyway. I went to AutoZone tonight, and they had several different types avaliable - cheapo champions, splitfires, ac delco, bosch... I'm guessing the Bosch Iridium plugs were probably what was the OEM type in this car, but they were $13 a piece... I just didn't want to spend that kind of money on this car. So I bought four AC Delco Platnium plugs and saved quite a bit (it was $33 tax and all for all four.) I've had good luck out of those in the past, not sure how well they'll interact with this Toyota, but we'll see.Also got a PCV valve (unrelated to any of these problems, but at 47K it needs one, should have replaced it a long time ago but never did.)No dice on the air filter, I can't find one. Going to try some other places tomorrow, maybe they carry one for this stupid thing... Looks like I'm not the only one that's had problems tracking down one in the past. This weekend, if I feel like it, I'll tear into this thing. I'll report back my findings later on... Probably will have no change, but oh well...

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:42 pm

Oh ok. I couldn't remember if it was bosch, ngk, whatever.. I figured it wasn't AC delco though. I thought the iridium may have been because i've read somehwere about toyota using iridium plugs...

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:50 pm

Too late. I got the Platniums. What's the difference with the types of plugs? Does the different material just make for longer service intervals, or is there another specific reason?

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:57 pm

Ah, I got ya. I didn't think about the plugs running hotter... That may have been a better choice, I dunno...As for service life, that's really not an issue as I go way overboard on routine maintenance, and will never reach anywhere close to the life of an iridium (or even platnium) plug before it gets replaced. lol!

coratz · Post by **coratz** » Thu May 19, 2005 1:45 am

if you take the plastic engine cover off, you will see a sticker on the side that says iridium plugs only and dont gap them??? i would change your pcv vavle for your other engine problems if you have not already done so.

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:45 am

Bummer, so I guess I need to go buy the $13 a piece set of plugs? Yikes. I'm not sure this pile of **** deserves something that expensive. lolThat sucks.

drunkenmaxx · Post by **drunkenmaxx** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:52 am

tell that damn hamster under the hood to run faster on the wheel!!!!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:08 am

Yeah really... I think he needs to take some speed or something.

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:12 am

Haha...I think I feel a new thread coming on..."How to purchase illegal substances for the hamster under the hood"

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:36 am

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic Â»Bummer, so I guess I need to go buy the $13 a piece set of plugs? Yikes. I'm not sure this pile of **** deserves something that expensive. lolThat sucks.rasermon put platinum plugs in his - http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=5814 . That was almost 2 years ago. ask him how they are holding up before you feel compelled to toss the platinum ones and go buy iridium ones

pmh013 · Post by **pmh013** » Thu May 19, 2005 9:49 am

Okey dokey!Sorry about the fact that I'm not as active around here as I was before, but I have a feeling that y'all are finally beginning to catch up to the mileage I was at 2 years ago when the proverbial crap started hitting the fan with my catalytic converter.For starters, I never noticed my car idling rough. In fact, it ran "normally" at regular city speeds. On the highway, though is when I noticed the fact that my car was totally pooching out.I could not keep my car at 100 km/h (62 MPH) if I was headed into a wind, even on a totally flat road. Going up a hill - forget about it. Downshift, upshift, downshift, upshift. How embarassing if you have friends in the car. "Dude, what's wrong with your car?" Um yeah.My car NEVER EVER triggered a CEL for the CAT. My CAT was plugged ... I never saw it myself (the buggers wouldn't let me see it!), but I'm told it looked like coffee grounds. I did, however, get a code off my OBD2 scanner. I'm sure that's mentioned in my second thread (probably titled Catalytic Converter Again!).Yes, I had this happen twice. First time I had to go through several hoops to get the problem resolved. I ended up reporting my car to Transport Canada (like DOT) as a safety hazard in order to get a response from GM. The second time, I strolled into the dealership, told them my cat was plugged, and told them to order up the parts for the test. The mechanic came for a road trip, ordered the parts, did the test, and got everything fixed right up. No problemo.So, all that said, here's what I think you should do. Get GM to do a pressure test on your catalytic converter. It's gonna cost you, but you're not going to be able to convince them to do it just because some nut-job lady in Canada had a similar issue. The car will fail the test, then your dealer should refund you the charge for running the diagnostic. Be warned though, they're not going to be able to do the diagnostic the same day, they need to order in some gasket-jobby that gets wrecked when you take it apart.Good luck!

ColonelPanic · Post by **ColonelPanic** » Thu May 19, 2005 10:10 am

Hey, thanks for the input there.... It's really starting to sound like you car... The stupid tranny absolutely can't decide what gear it needs to be in... Shifts down, shifts back up, down, up, down, up, down, up, yikes.. Even on a completely flat stretch of road, the slightest change in throttle will make the thing downshift. It's pathetic. I've had to resort to running it with overdrive off, since it is too obnoxious with its shifting, and it's barely able to pull itself around once it switches into overdrive. Driving it this way is completely miserable, 65 MPH in 3rd gear, holding somewhere around 4,000 RPM - all that engine noise is really annoying, but I can't do anything to get around that. Anyone know exactly how much I'm going to have to pay to get this test done? Money is really a big issue right now, and if I'm going to spend too much, I'd rather take that money and invest it elsewhere, such as on a car that isn't such a worthless piece of crap. I hate to say it, but I'm really beginning to despise this car! *cry*

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Thu May 19, 2005 10:23 am

I'm not sure what diagnostic test they ran on mine to determine whether or not I was eligible for the catalytic converter TSB, but they didn't charge me anything. Is it something that's covered by warranty or would be covered by an extended warranty, I wonder?