New Member with Question about Dealer asking for more money after sale

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:35 am

Hello all -I purchased my AWD Vibe last weekend and am loving it! Great styling, good power (although I have to wait till the end of break-in period to really be able to tell!), and nice amenities inside. All that being said, I do have a question about the raw deal my dealer is giving me.Has anyone had this happen? I am in the military reserves. GM offers a $500 rebate for military. When I went into the dealership the day before I bought the Vibe to discuss the deal (they had to go get the car the next day) I said I wanted the military discount and all the other discounts they are offering, they said ok, made a photocopy of my ID card, and the deal was done. So the next day I pick up my vehicle, get a copy of my invoice, pay them, and drive away happy.Now, three days later, I get a call from the dealer telling me that the military discount does not apply to vibes, and that I owe them the $500. Is this right? What are my legal options here? I am thinking I will refuse to pay unless they threaten a lawsuit. I am the customer, I asked them about the rebate and they said it was valid. Its not my fault they did not do their homework before entering into the contract with me. Anyone have any suggestions?Thanks and this forum is great! I have learned so much already.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:39 am

I think if the deal was signed that they can not force you to pay them back the $500.00. What's $500.00 to them anyways. Most lawyers will give you a free consoltation if you were to ask one.

ShadowRuleZ · Post by **ShadowRuleZ** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:40 am

I was told the conquest rebate didn't apply to GMS pricing, but they said since they quoted it to me they would give it to me. I had no problems getting the rebate. I would tell them to shove off since they have the money right now, the title is in the name of someone else, and it's to bad for them.

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:45 am

Thanks for all the great inputs already! I will be talking with the dealer tomorrow and I'll let you know what they tell me. I am going to stand fast and tell them I refuse to pay it. We'll see what they say!

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:02 am

I'd call Pontiac Customer Assistance right now, and get a case # started on this deal. IMHO, and this is my opinion, not a known fact.

NUBlackshirts · Post by **NUBlackshirts** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:29 am

Yeah, I think they are scamming you. I got the military discount on my '04 GT last December. That was in addition to all the other discounts and financing they gave me.

Trina · Post by **Trina** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:10 am

Tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine

jwalcik · Post by **jwalcik** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:45 am

i agree with everyone above. when i bought my vibe last month, they tried to tell me i couldn't combine the GM rebates with the supplier discount. i pointed out that there was a dealership right up the road that was willing to give it to me and that i could learn to be satisfied without the GT (the other dealship had the exact same car, only it was a base). when the sales guy realized i was serious he "went to check with his boss" and came back letting me know that all of the discounts/rebates could be applied together.tell 'em too bad and wait to see what they do. calling pontiac to see what they have to say might not be a bad idea either. you could save the next service person who walks in to buy a car from the same fate.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:54 am

I like the idea of reporting them to Pontiac customer service. Get them in trouble so they'll think twice about trying it on the next customer. If it was an innocent mistake, then it's still their problem. A $500 lesson for the sales staff. Not something you should pay. The contract you signed for the car indicated that you would receive the discount, if they make you pay they are breaking the contract unless you comitted fraud.If Pontiac backs up the dealer and they say you have to pay the $500, then tell them the deal is off, cancel out, give them back the car, and either go to a different dealer or just buy a different car. Really, we all love our Vibes and all, but if the company is going to screw customers around like that, then we should all be giving our money to a company that cares more about the customer. Don't know who that would be though, but there's got to be dealers out there who will bend over to sell cars.

Mase · Post by **Mase** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:01 am

I too believe it's a scam. A few months ago I read a huge list of common scams dealers pull on buyers. I remember the "discount retraction" scam being on it.

GMJAP · Post by **GMJAP** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:12 am

when we bought our house, the salesman put down the wrong price (too low) for one of the upgrades when we signed the contract. They tried to charge us full price later, but since it was in the contract, we forced them to go with the stated price; it was their mistake. There's really nothing they could do.Sellers can refuse to sell something for a misprinted ad price, but once they sell it to you, they can't decide to charge you more.

redlava · Post by **redlava** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:13 am

I would pay back the money because I hate confrontations.Just kidding. I just wanted to say something different than everybody else. I wouldn't pay that money no matter what.

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:25 am

Quote, originally posted by desert_dweller Â»Just remember that you own the car contrary to what the dealer might tell you.Not necessarily. If he's financing, then GMAC tehcnically holds the title until it's paid off.That being said, if you have a copy of the invoice and it shows the discount, then tell them to F off!

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:43 am

In my business, when I make a mistake like that I eat it and go on with my life. I would not risk jeopardizing my reputation for $500. In fact I would be embarrassed to admit that I was so ignorant about my business as to make this kind of mistake. Moreover, I seriously doubt that any GM military discount excludes the Vibe. It might make sense to exclude the Corvette (or even ironically the Hummer) because anyone who can afford those cars does not need a discount, but the military discount is more of a "thank you" than a marketing gimmick so I doubt that GM would limit that discount to vehicles that are in gross over supply. Tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:48 am

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish Â»Not necessarily. If he's financing, then GMAC tehcnically holds the title until it's paid off.That being said, if you have a copy of the invoice and it shows the discount, then tell them to F off!It is not like a "land contract". The buyer has real ownership, the lender just has a lien. The lender "holds" your title so you can't transfer the vehicle without paying off the loan. Even in a real estate loan situation, you give the lender a "mortgage deed" which the lender can only use IF you don't make the payments.

msmyer · Post by **msmyer** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:24 am

Tell them that you don't want the car then, they will "back down," like someone said what's $500 to them....

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:17 pm

You guys are great! Thanks for the good advice. On a good note, I financed through my credit union since that way I could still get a good rate and also take the $1000 rebate rather than the GMAC financing. So they really have no stick to hold over me. I gave them a lien check which should be good as cash for them!I am almost looking forward to the call from the dealer tomorrow. Should be fun!

kostby · Post by **kostby** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:21 pm

I'm posting this gif file copied from gmbuypower.com full size. It's pretty straightforward about 'all military personnel', but it does say 'select' new and unused 04/05 GM vehicles. It just doesn't mention WHICH vehicles qualify.BTW, from GM Buypower, it looks like you should have received $2,000 cash rebate if you financed it through your credit union. The $1,000 BONUS CASH offer is IN ADDITION to GM low rate financing on Vibes.To see 'Regional Offers', I used a Zip Code I knew was in Missouri, though not specificallly St. Louis. --> http://www.gmbuypower.com/view...63435

Attached files

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:37 pm

yes, that dealer is trying to rip you off. you don't owe them anything. they sold you a vehicle and entered into a signed contract between you and the credit union. sounds to me like they owe YOU $1000 for that rebate they didn't fully give you!

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:00 pm

it states its not to be combined with other offers but it does clearly state Pontiac is an included vehicle. Unless there is some weird reason Vibes are not allowed due to the fact that they are made by Toyota...Either way not sure about them needing to hand you $1000... but you do not need to go back and pay them $500 since you signed everything already. Just make sure they don't try and change your paperwork.

Mr. Poopypants · Post by **Mr. Poopypants** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:23 pm

Welcome. And like everyone else said, if the deal was signed, you can tell them exactly where to stick it.

Thewhite · Post by **Thewhite** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:31 pm

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Really, we all love our Vibes and all, but if the company is going to screw customers around like that, then we should all be giving our money to a company that cares more about the customer. and military. if it's threir way to say Thank you for your Duty, then tell them to f off!!!P.S.: I'm in the Reserve too, here, and a case like that really pissed me off!

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:24 pm

Quote, originally posted by kostby Â»I'm posting this gif file copied from gmbuypower.com full size. It's pretty straightforward about 'all military personnel', but it does say 'select' new and unused 04/05 GM vehicles. It just doesn't mention WHICH vehicles qualify.BTW, from GM Buypower, it looks like you should have received $2,000 cash rebate if you financed it through your credit union. The $1,000 BONUS CASH offer is IN ADDITION to GM low rate financing on Vibes.To see 'Regional Offers', I used a Zip Code I knew was in Missouri, though not specificallly St. Louis. --> http://www.gmbuypower.com/view...63435 Ok - I called the military number in that ad. Bad news - turns out the Vibe is not one of the vehicles that is eligible for the $500 military discount. But still - the dealer should have called and confirmed that in the first place before finalizing the sale with me. And I told the lady on the phone that their ad is very misleading and they should show which vehicles qualify.Also - I did end up getting the $2000 in rebates ($1000 for hot button and $1000 bonus for not taking the financing) I also got another $1000 conquest bonus for owning a non-GM car. So I think they did that part right.

Atomb · Post by **Atomb** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:26 pm

We all know that dealers make the majority of their money via after sales service...so to really rub it in, i would tell them pretty much what everybody else here is saying...then to top it off, throw in a quick comment about the fact that due to this unfortunate incident, you will be bringing your vibe to another dealer for maintenance as you just don't have that 'trust' in their dealership anymore. hit 'em where it hurts! (wow, never thought you'd hear a canadian say that eh?)

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:22 am

Well I just got off the phone with my saleslady. She started off all sweet asking me if I got her message about not be allowed the $500 and I said yes and she got quiet so I asked "you are not asking me to pay this are you?" And she said of course I am - and I told her I am not paying for her mistake. And she whined and went on about how the military rebate has been valid for three years and then just on April 4th it got pulled and her dealership was not notified. So I told her it sounds like a problem between her dealership and GM. And that she should have checked on the rebates before entering into a sales contract with me. I said that if she had told me while we were doing the paperwork that the rebate is not valid I would have had no problem adding the $500 back into the bottom line and putting it into my loan. But I am not paying for her mistake at not checking on the rebate.So then she started getting mad and yelling and telling me that I am stealing money from them that does not belong to me and that they are going to withhold my paperwork (they still have to file for a title and registration for me). So I told her that was illegal and I would have to talk to a lawyer if they were going to hold my paperwork. At that point she said "we are done here - you mentioned lawyer so I am going to hang up on you now". So I calmly asked to speak to her finance manager (guy that did my paperwork). She did actually transfer me to him. I explained the situation to him (because of course he is claiming that he knows nothing about this - yea right!), and I told him he cannot withhold my paperwork. He seemed to agree with me but said he had to discuss with the GM. And the GM is off till Monday. So the GM is supposed to call me.Stay tuned for the next chapter in the saga!

russ257 · Post by **russ257** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:40 am

in my business (ag) if a dealer told a customer he qualified for a program and then later found out he didnt he would have to eat that cost. its the dealers mistake, he needs to absorb the cost. he still made money tell him to pound sand

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:54 am

I disagree! Don't lawyer-up if you can help it. Why bring a snake to a snakepit?I would contact whoever financed the vehicle (GMAC, Credit Union, ect) and report the dealer., and let them know they are threating to hold up your paperwork. (BTW, legally they are out-of-trust on your car, they have accepted the deal, and withholding paperwork can get them in deep doo-doo with GM) Lastly, the GM and the F&I people get email from GM and GMAC all day long about which program are incoming & outgoing. If they didn't check DealerWorld, that is their problem, not yours. If the General Manager insists you owe the money, tell him you'll bring the car back and go buy elsewhere, and watch him change his tune!

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:02 am

I agree with you - I don't want to "lawyer-up" unless I have to. I did find out that Missouri offers a half-hour consultation with a lawyer for $30, so I might at least do that and find out what my options are. I already called my credit union and told them that the dealership is threatening to hold up my paperwork. They were quite interested to hear that and she said they would make a note in my file and for me to keep them informed if anything else happens. At this point, I think they want to wait and see what the GM says to me as well.I am debating right now if I should call General Motors and open a case on this dealer or wait and give the dealership's GM a chance to make it right on Monday. But absolutely, if he tells me I owe them, I will be returning the car and demanding all of my money back.

chargervibe · Post by **chargervibe** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:44 am

My dad had this happen to him a few years back with a Chevy dealership. They called him back the next day and told him that they had figured some numbers wrong and that he "owed" them $1,800.He offered to just bring the car back to them and let them keep it. Of course they wanted no part of that. That might be an option for you. Just tell them you'll bring it back if it's that big of a deal. It's not like they're losing any money on the vehicle. They might not be making a ton but they're still turning a profit.After doing some digging at the GM plant where he worked. He found out they had done this to others and it was a scam.

Atomb · Post by **Atomb** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:11 am

Quote, originally posted by hillvibe Â»I did find out that Missouri offers a half-hour consultation with a lawyer for $30, so I might at least do that and find out what my options are. I'm sorry...this just brought a really funny image into my head of sitting in a scarcely decorated office with biege chairs and on the other side of the table is a lawyer in a bad suit talking r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y so that the 30 minutes go by without you learning much and then requesting payment for addition time!like that Simpson's episode when homer calls the betting hotline that's 3 bucks a minute and the recording on the phone is REALLY slow!(you can relate any real life situation to a Simpson's episode, by the way).good luck with them. but again, i would not bring my car there for service if it all ends up with you owning your vibe. it's like insulting the waitress BEFORE you get your food....a big 'no-no'.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:21 am

I've run into this problem where in the service department say a bill was done up and everything, customer and the advisor looked it over and then the customer payed and left. Next day its brought to our attention from parts they forgot to charge out the $400 wheel hub/sensor and bearing and it needs to be added to the bill. While we got in trouble for not noticing that, we refused to call the customer and say "Oh hey hows the car? Thats good... um listen... About yesterday's um... $545.96 bill... ah we forgot to charge you for the wheel bearing we put on... yeah thats another $400 but you know mistakes happen right? Can you stop by today and pay for that?"Parts usually ended up eating something like that. Of course I just used that as an example HOWEVER if you sign something for a particular sale or promotion or what ever and after you have signed its found out the sale expired the day before or does not apply to that vehicle or combined with other special offers... Its to late. YOU already signed a document that they can not LEGALLY change so you do no owe them $500 for THEIR mistake. She's probably all mad cause its coming out of her department meaning she probably makes NOTHING off selling that Vibe to you hehe. And the dealer's General Manager should side with you no matter how reluctant he may be to lose $500 and then sit his staff down and ream them a new one.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:34 am

Hi! Snake lawyer here heading for the pit! The dealer may have a leg to stand on as there are grounds to rescind/modify a contract for "mistakes in fact". which result in "unjust enrichment". But it would now be up to them to sue you for the $500 or to rescind the contract not to merely refuse to issue you the title unless you pony up the money. As stated earlier, for a mere $500 if I were a dealer I'd accept that fact that I made an error and it just doesn't do my reputation any good to argue about $500 on a done deal. From time to time I have clients who don't pay me and I just let it go. All things considered, suing clients for unpaid fees isn't worth the time and effort and even if I am right it makes me look bad.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:37 am

Saleslady is probably mad because she is seeing her commission going up in smoke!

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:47 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Saleslady is probably mad because she is seeing her commission going up in smoke!Yup she can kiss this one goodbye hehe

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:35 am

Thanks for the lawyer input Jake75! It sounds like from what you are saying that the dealer does have a legal standing to rescind the contract. But once they rescind the contract does that also mean I have the right to return the car and be refunded my money? That would be the route I would like to take if they play hardball with me and refuse to let this drop. Just return the vehicle and walk away.

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:44 am

OT....Mav, you just hit 4000 posts.....i think I'm like at 450...wow....only 3550 to go!!!

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:39 am

Was this a Vibe that you ordered, or one that they had on the lot?

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:46 am

4004 now...And yeah if they really decided to not care about their reputation considering you a small fish in a big sea (in which case $500 should be pocket change to them) and decide to cancel your contract and rewrite it requiring you to pay the $500. I'd leave the car with them to since basicly your driving a car you don't own hehe... there is no contract.

Atomb · Post by **Atomb** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:12 am

thanks for the info, Jake75. That does sound familiar re: contract law (i recently had to learn a bit about contract law....but not on the scale you are at).I should have remembered some of that...goes to show you that you can study for, write, and pass an exam...but when you really need it, it may not be in your head!I still think you're in the driver's seat (no pun intended), hillvibe. Worst case scenario, you have to go find another dealership and buy a new car!

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:37 am

Quote, originally posted by joatmon Â»Was this a Vibe that you ordered, or one that they had on the lot?It was one they had to go get from about 90 miles away.

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:40 am

Quote, originally posted by hillvibe Â»Thanks for the lawyer input Jake75! It sounds like from what you are saying that the dealer does have a legal standing to rescind the contract. But once they rescind the contract does that also mean I have the right to return the car and be refunded my money? That would be the route I would like to take if they play hardball with me and refuse to let this drop. Just return the vehicle and walk away. Yes - both parties would be put back where they were before. They get the car back, you get your money back. I don't think either of you win in that case. If push comes to shove perhaps you ought to consider splitting the difference and getting your revenge on the dealer satisfaction survey. I also agree that GM shares some of the blame in their "selected models" crap. Perhaps a complaint to the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau in NYC would be in order as well. They have a website with address. In reading their ad I assumed the "excludes Hummers and Saabs" was the detail of the "selected models" limitation.

scott_h · Post by **scott_h** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:57 am

Quote, originally posted by jake75 Â»Hi! Snake lawyer here heading for the pit!Why on earth is a lawyer driving a Vibe?

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:54 am

Quote, originally posted by scott_h Â»Why on earth is a lawyer driving a Vibe? Perhaps I'm living below my means! Liberated from Corporate life at age 53 in takeover at end of 1995. Had enough of that. With 9 mo. severance pay and no debt decided to start sole practice out of a home office. Former employer sent me a lot of work the first few years as they had no one left with my expertise so I kept busy from day one.

tnpartsguy · Post by **tnpartsguy** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:22 am

Quote, originally posted by scott_h Â»Why on earth is a lawyer driving a Vibe? Maybe he likes the styling? ;-}He could have bought a Viper I guess (*snickers*)seriously, one of my best freinds is a lawyer, and her mom used to be the DA in a neighboring county, her uncle is a judge, and her daughter is a court reporter, so I know not ALL lawyers are snakes, but quite a few ARE!

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:52 am

Quote, originally posted by scott_h Â»Why on earth is a lawyer driving a Vibe? Maybe he isn't a good lawyer... hehe Sorry had to toss that one in.

jimincalif · Post by **jimincalif** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:00 am

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik Â»Maybe he isn't a good lawyer... hehe Sorry had to toss that one in.Maybe he's an honest lawyer? They do exist! Nothing wrong with living below one's means. Read "The Millionaire Next Door."Back on topic I had a Mazda dealer come back to me for more $$$ some 20+ years ago. They forgot to include the state sales tax on the final tally. I looked over the paperwork, and the sales price and trade in were what we had agreed on, it was clearly a mistake. Since I had agreed to the price and there was no question sales tax applied, I went ahead and paid them. They threatened not to register the car, I didn't appreciate the threat, and I never went there for service due to their approach. In this case it is different, they represented that the incentive applied and you both agreed to the transaction on that basis. Now they've discovered their error after-the-fact. I own a service business where pricing is somewhat of an art. I have to live with my quote, if I blow it, I eat it.

platnum43 · Post by **platnum43** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:44 am

hey i got some what of a reply for you i am active duty navy and i just bought a vibe also and they tld me that the military discount did not work for the vibes but it did for every other model so i said okay roger that i still got a good deal though as far as your concerned you should not have to pay back the money you signed papers and they signed papers saying that this is what the price of the vehicle u agreed on if they make a big deal about it u should go to court if you can and u could win back more then u think its not ur fault that they didnt do there homework

hillvibe · Post by **hillvibe** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:01 am

Quick update. The GM of the dealership did not call me on Monday as I was told. I finally called him around 4pm. He knew nothing about me or my situation - and he was rude to me on the phone and did not want to hear what I had to say. All he kept saying was "I have to talk to my people" and "they said I would call you?". He promised to call me back that day. Never heard from the guy- and have not heard from him yet today either. Not too encouraging is it? I have not received my title and other paperwork in the mail yet although my credit union loan paperwork showed up last night - so they did submit the loan check I gave them. Stay tuned!

jake75 · Post by **jake75** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:31 am

"Not too encouraging is it?" I wouldn't read anything into that. The GM is probably the one who is most apt to conclude that getting back that $500 from you is not worth the hassle and potential bad press especailly since it is a Military Rebate and we are at war. It is his employees that are trying to cover their mistake and keep their commission. Titles take a week or two, and I assume that the Title will go to your lender anyway as the lender has a lien.

Charlievibe · Post by **Charlievibe** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:52 am

hill,Sorry to hear about your problems. You might want to check out this web site http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline...g.htm. I didn't sit and read it but it is about the Federal "Cooling-Off" period. I don't know how long you have, but you might be able to take the car back to them and walk away. I would ask your credit union what they think you should do. I would also look into your state laws and see if they have the legal right to resend the contract for reasons other than "you don't financially qualify." At this point, you gave them the money to pay it off and once they deposit the check in the bank, the car belongs to your credit union, until you get it paid off. Deposit of the funds implies that they accepted the signed agreement you had with them. I would find out if they deposited the $$$. If they resend the contract, then they will need to refund you the $$$, and I really don't see them doing that.If you contact Pontiac about this, then I would also contact the Better Business Bureau and let them know what the dealer pulled. You might also alert the military group in your area so the good people from there don't get mixed up with this group. Good luck.CV