Tick tick tick...

[millster]

Mine was built in April 2002. It had about 27,000 miles on it when I traded it. The noises started around 16,000.The synthetic seemed to make it worse. I started using it when the car hit 5,000 miles (didn't notice any increase in noise then). I then switched back to dino oil while I was unemployed to cut back on cost (11/2002 to 10/2003) and then back to synthetic somewhere around 9/2003. When I switched back was about the time I noticed a defined chatter beginning. So whether the synthetic was actually to blame or not, I don't know for certain. I merely assumed it was.

[ToolGuy]

CP, I checked for TSB's or Campaignes on engine noise and found nothing. It is just a shot in the dark though but I am wondering if it could be your timing chain tensioner... You are certain it is valves? Just out of curiosity, have you used a stethoscope and listened?

[ToolGuy]

This is what the GM Serv Manual states for Upper Engine Noise...ImportantA cold piston knock which disappears in 1.5 minutes should be considered acceptable. A cold engine knock usually disappears when the specific cylinder's secondary ignition circuit is grounded out during diagnosis.A light rattle/tapping noise may indicate a valve train -- upper engine concern. Low oil pressure Perform an oil pressure test. Refer to Oil Pressure Diagnosis and Testing . Repair or replace as required. Improper lubrication to the valve train Inspect the following components, and repair or replace as required:Restricted oil filter The valve lifter The valve lifter bore The oil filter bypass valve The oil pump and pump screen The engine block oil galleries Broken valve spring Replace the valve spring. Worn or damaged valve lifter bore Repair or replace as required. Worn or dirty valve lifters Replace the valve lifters. Stretched or broken timing chain and/or damaged sprocket teeth Replace the timing chain and sprockets. Worn engine camshaft lobes Inspect the engine camshaft lobes. Replace the camshaft and valve lifters as required. Worn valve guides or valve stems Inspect the following components, and repair as required:The valves The valve guides Stuck ValvesCarbon on the valve stem or valve seat may cause the valve to stay open. Inspect the following components, and repair as required:The valves The valve guides

[ColonelPanic]

Haven't listened to it too close, but that's something I may very well need to try! I need an excuse to buy one of those nifty mechanic's stethoscopes anyway. It's certainly coming from the upper portion of the engine from what I can tell. Wheter that be the valves or otherwise, I'm not sure. Could be something with the timing chain, although the brunt of the noise really sounds to me like it's coming from an area from the center of the engine over to the driver's side - the first two cylinders over from the driver's side more or less. Timing chain should be on the passenger's side, no? But still, can't rule anything out, with the way sound travels that sure can be deceiving.Thank you, thank you, thank you for the great info you dug up for me! Very helpful! Looking at the list, I suppose it could be the first thing on there. But, the knock sure lasts longer than 1.5 minutes! My old Corisca 4-cyl had a nasty knock when cold that was eventually diagnosed as "piston slap" by the dealer, no way to fix. This engine somewhat sounds like that of the Corsica, but it doesn't, if that makes any sense. The Corsica was just a knock, and the Vibe does knock, but it has more of a "rattle" when accelerating as well. I dunno, I suck at explaining things. Could be a lack of oil pressure, maybe not enough to trigger the light perhaps? She builds up oil pressure fast, the light flickers once or twice and goes out before I let off the key when turning it over. I'm would hope this hasn't been caused by an oil-related concern. It's rare that I push the car all the way to the 3K mark betwen changes, usually it's in the neighborhood of 2500-2800 miles. And I've always had good luck with Pennzoil as far as keeping the guts of the engine free of gunk. But what bothers me is the fact that I always brought in my own oil and had the dealer change it. Just waiting for them to say I've been bringing them in the wrong oil, and of course most of the time I haven't been able to remember to save the receipts when I buy a couple quarts of oil. I know it's been 5W30 every time, but do they? Blah, I dunno. I'm going to keep the things on the list fresh in my mind and see what I can figure out. And I'll have to keep an eye on the forecasts to know when I can try to schedule another appointment, I need colder temps for them to really hear what's going on. Still seems to be worse when below 40 degrees.Thanks again for the help! And I'll keep you posted on this...

[spyder]

Hey ColonelPanic. You know I totally feel for you. I had a grand prix gtp and every time brought the car in for something, the problem would dissapear. I thought I was just not educated enough to know what was really going on with my car. Since I bought my '03 vibe gt used one month ago with 26000km it has been awsome thanks to this website as I have had lots of proof for all my concerns (which are minimal). As for your knocking sounds, I actually have the same problem (if in fact it is) but from having a few cars that are 4 cylinder and this is a very common occurance and I have heard the same noise in daewoo's too (models prior to GM buying them). I have listend to your recordings and I would have to aggree with Ragingfish that it is normal for a cold engine. Yours does sound a little harsh but so does mine when it is cold and I am from Toronto, Canada and in the past five days we have had nights dropping to -20C or 0F. Just because I really want to understand the if it was a problem with my vibe, I tried starting the car on 3 mornings where the car block heater was used and two mornings just left to freeze and have a true cold start. I did not record the temps each morning but I can tell you that I froze my (removed) off all five mornings and had to put on my real winther coat and I usually don't do unless it is at least -15C.So, when I took advantage of the block heater it started without a hitch and was knockless. The engine only "knocked" a little in the first minute if reved over 2500rpm. On the days that my car was left totally exposed to the cold I could definetly hear the new TBS replacement 560CCA battery do it's job:) The crank sound was slower but kicked it better than the 330CCA. The knocking start immediately and was constant in idle for 2 minutes and contiuned for about 10 minutes while driving in 3 gear and higher and when my temp gauge reached 50 and the sound dissapeared.Forgive me if I missed any previous suggestions or questions posted earlier but it does sound like an oil issue as well as the engine trying to manage it timing while being too cold. 5w30 is the recomended oil. You would be surprised how many dealers assume it should be 10w30, my cars have had both numbers and synthetics, and the most important issue I find is getting the right type of oil for you car. Some synthics are great but not great in certain cars and some dino oils are the same. I would suggest ensuring that your oil is infact a 5w30 or even go for the 0w30 for the winter as the manual suggests for extreme cold. See what the dealer says. Secondly if you can plug in your car do it! It really makes a difference. Infact many Northern towns in Ontario have electrical outlets for each parking spot in thier towns and cities just so everyone can plug in thier cars....it makes that much of a difference. Again I am sorry if this is a repetition but my dealer has also assured me that the cold temps not harmful if you using the correct grade of oil.I am speaking with the dealer in the next couple of days, I will try to revisit this issue with him again.Please let me know what you think:)Spyder

[ColonelPanic]

Yesterday morning, I fired up the Vibe and it didn't knock one bit. The temps were in the mid 40F range. So it does kinda sound like you described - cold weather + not plugged in = knocking... Unfortunately, if I had an engine block heater, I couldn't use it - live in an apartment. I guess I could throw an extension cord off the balcony and run it out to the Vibe, but I bet the landlord gets pissed. lol!As far as the oil goes, I know my oil is 5W30 because I buy it and bring it to the dealer. Unless they take my oil and keep it, and put whatever they want in the thing when they change the oil. lol! I'm still not sure why the noise took so long to develop, so that's why I keep thinking there is something not right with the engine. I bought the car new in 01/2003, and for the first winter there were several days with the temps in the neighborhood of 0-10F, and it didn't make the noise it is making now... Same thing with last winter, it got down to around 0F a couple of times and didn't make a racket. For some reason, it didn't develop until ~30xxx miles. I would suspect that if it was an issue with cold weather, oil, and whatnot that I would have heard it from the beginning... Or I would think so at least. Unless it is simply related to the engine getting more wear as time goes by...I dunno... I still have the option of letting it run for a couple minutes when cold before taking off, and I can always just turn up the radio.

[ColonelPanic]

Ok, out the door heading in the dealer's direction... Goals I shall accomplish:[1] Mention to them that the problem isn't getting any better, see when they'll look at it again[2] Bring up the valve adjustment deal to see if that helps 'em in any way[3] Start a 2005 Vibe on the lot[4] Probably isn't going to do squat for my noise, but screw it, I'm switching to synthetic on today's oil change. [5] Unrelated to this post, but I'm going to bring up the fart smell. I know my vegetarian diet isn't the best, but I really doubt the smell comes from me. [6] Unrelated again, but I will bring up my grinding moonroof which oddly enough only occurs >50F. Will report later!

[ColonelPanic]

Stick a fork in the Vibe, it's done. I give up!!!Just got back from the shop. Not a happy camper to say the least! First things first, when I got the response I did in regards to the rotten egg smell, that kinda rubbed me the wrong way so I didn't bother checking into the sound a new Vibe makes. Just couldn't do it. Nor could I even mention the current state of the moonroof, screw it...They changed the oil with synthetic. They still don't have too many suggestions about the cold engine noise. I did mention the valve adjustment thing, but they said that if the valves were out of whack, then it would probably be making noise all the time... Which with as little as I know about this crap, I guess that's a fair assumption.Then came the infamous Silverado piston slap comparison. I've been waiting for I don't know how long to hear that! I pointed out with that, it's well documented on the 'net about the issue! If you cruise any truck message board for any amount of time, you're sure to hear something about it. And with the crap that Dad's truck does, I have a good idea about what the problem is, what causes it, and all that jazz. I told him I can't buy that, if something similar were happening with the 1ZZ engine, we'd know about it... The service advisor did say "that's just with the trucks" so he didn't necessarily blame the noise on "piston slap" or whatever on this engine, since it apparently isn't common. I then paid for the oil change and noticed this on the paperwork:Quote »5 12346184 OIL10W30SI didn't notice they charged me for five quarts of oil, but what stood out for me immediately was the 10W30! NEVER have I run 10W30 in this car, I always supply my own oil (should have this time, I guess) and just have a belief to follow strictly what the top of the oil cap and the owner's manual says, which sure ain't 10W30! But they state that's what they use in everything they change oil in. "5W30's just for colder climates." Sure, but... I wanted to say my issue pertains to COLD weather, and I don't think switching to a HEAVIER oil will do anything but make matters worse. But the service advisor said "hey, that may help your noise!"Now, I'm kinda not the most jolly fellow here at the moment. I'm sitting here with 4 quarts of Mobil1 10W30 in the thing, not sure what to do next. My buddy goes to the same dealer for his oil changes, so if what they say is true, he's had 10W30 in there from the beginning with his similar '03 Vibe. SO, his engine hasn't blown up yet (or even making the noise mine is.) I don't know, not comfortable keeping the 10W30 in there, but I just spent a shload of money to get the stuff in there, not too keen on draining it out.So, should I just roll with it and see what happens? Golly gee, maybe that's the answer I've been looking for all along! Doubt it. I got ripped off for it looks like $7 (dang, that's expensive) since they charged me for 5 quarts of oil, but I could care less at this time. At least the dipstick shows slightly above the top dot, so I know they didn't overfill the thing.I don't know guys, I'm burned out. I wish some of you gurus were nearby to have a listen to this thing, it just doesn't sound good, and that's really something an audio recording can't capture the magnitude of. Sorry about the rant... Just been a crap day (been up 24 hours now!) Maybe my *bleepin'* and moanin' about this issue is justified, maybe not... I dunno, just sick of it I guess. I wish I had a Vibe that didn't suck, like the majority of you guys seem to have. Sincerely,One very stressed Mr. Panic!

[zionzr2]

Sorry to hear about your troubles....I'd make them but in the 5W-30....Its what the factory wants so make them put it in....

[ColonelPanic]

I know... I *never* would have suspected that this would happen... I wanted to see if the synthetic would hold up any better in the cold as far as the knocks/etc were concerned, although I know it probably won't do squat for me, so I'm sure I just wasted my money... But, you never know until you try... And I've been wanting to switch for a while now, so good enough time as any. But I'm just afraid that with the 10W30, that may worsen things...I'll find out in the morning, going to fire it up and see what happens.

[spyder]

Hey Dude, I don't think they tried to mess with you or that they made a mistake. My uncle use to own a GM dealership and he explained that all dealers buy their oil in bulk from GM that is compatible with all GM Cars. The info you read in the manual is meant for you the owner if you plan to buy the appropriate oil outside of a GM service center. If and when you go to a gm service center, they are fully aware of the oil needed for your car for that time of year. The only two differences is whether the oil is reg or synth and if it is made for winter/cold climate driving or not. Basically the oil is a little different for winter but is completly safe for all GM's. I know it sounds like a cop out but my uncle has been in the business for 30 years and he just tells me like it is. So keep your chin up CP:) the oil is the right kind. I had mine changed today too and I had a minor moment of anger until I spoke to my uncle. But we shall see what the cold does to it next time!!!

[ColonelPanic]

That's cool... Thank ya for the encouragement! I've put a good couple hundred miles on this new oil, hasn't blown up yet. I was a little cranky the other day... Now that I've got some sleep, I'm thinking a bit more clearly now. lol!I fired it up this morning, and the noise doesn't seem to be as bad, although it's still there... *shrug* Not sure why, if the synth. made a difference, or the heavier oil? And it seems to be running a bit more quiet when it gets up to temp too... I'll roll with it and see what happens, I guess. I dunno, maybe the heavier oil won't hurt it too bad, it isn't generally too terribly cold this far south. It was 24 F when I cranked it up this morning... And if that's the same weight they use on everything else, so be it I suppose...If it does blow up, it's the dealer who put the heavier oil in there, and I mentioned that to 'em. So it's all them!

[goodvibe]

At your temps, the Mobil is probably flowing a bit better anyway so I wouldn't worry about it being 10w. Mobil is one of the louder oils but at start up you're doing better. That would indicate a possible flow issue until the oil is warm. Try changing the oil filter. The dealer filters may have a poor or miscalibrated bypass valve. If it's set to high or sticking, oil flow will definitely be diminished until the oil is warm and it takes the oil about twice as long to warm up as the water gauge does. This may not help but it's easy to try. Napa gold or a standard purolator would be good easy to get choices. Don't forget to replace the oil lost with the filter and your second start will let you know if it worked. I know this won't make you feel any better but I've found GM's service a bit lacking on my Vibe GT as well.

[ColonelPanic]

Yeah, in hindsight it probably won't make that much of a differnce. Now, if I lived further north, it would I'd say.May try a different filter. I've always just used the AC-Delco filters, but I'll try anything new.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic »May try a different filter. I've always just used the AC-Delco filters, but I'll try anything new. I tend to use Toyota filters, with no complaints. The 1ZZ uses filter #90915-YZZA2. Amazingly, Toyota appears to only use two different kinds of filters for all their models. That's pretty damn cool.

[goodvibe]

The Delco is ussually pretty good but it couldn't hurt to try something else.

[ColonelPanic]

I'll do just that... Being a computer monkey by trade, every day I see how a problem can usually be solved by something so simple it's ridiculous. She'll get something other than Delco at the next change (but I think I'll stick with Mobil1.) And the 10W30 if the dealer uses that again (unless I bring my own in) would be even less of an issue, since it will be well into the spring when it needs another oil change. Haven't really researched the oil change intervals for running this stuff, but seeing how I overmaintain my cars, I'll probably change it every 6K or so. I could probably run it longer, I would imagine.

[ken]

being a computer person myself...how about rebooting the vibe...say disconnect the battery to reset the computer. just a wild shot. hope things work out for you.

[tnpartsguy]

We don't buy Mobil 1 in Bulk. Only a mega-mega Dealer could afford to do that, and I just called the oil distributor for the SE US, and he said NONE of their GM dealers ever carried Mobil 1 in tanks, most buy it in pallet, or indivdual boxes (like we do, 25 6 packs at a time). As far as 10w30 versus 5w30, GM warranty requirements for the LS1 and LS2 & LS5 engines (Corvette, Camaro/Firebird, and Corvette ZR1) was 5w30 Mobil 1, starting in 1997. No GM dealer should be using 10w30 on ANY GM vehicles, but sadly, most (including mine, except Mobil 1 vehicles and diesels) still use 10w30.

[Baltovibe]

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe »The Delco is ussually pretty good but it couldn't hurt to try something else.When I changed my oil last weekend for the first time, I went to the Advanced Auto Parts near me, and compared the oil filters by taking out each brand out of the box and examining them.Hearing that the K&N filters were the best (and costliest), I compared the other brands to the K&N. Only the AC/Delco had a spring affair at the closed end of the filter, just like the K&N filter. All the others (Fram, Purolator, etc.) had just a metal or paper shealth at that end. I ended up buying and using the AC/Delco.When I took off the Toyota filter that came with the Vibe, it also had just the metal shealth, no spring.Has anyone else compared these filters? Any comments?

[ToolGuy]

Quote, originally posted by Baltovibe »When I changed my oil last weekend for the first time, I went to the Advanced Auto Parts near me, and compared the oil filters by taking out each brand out of the box and examining them.Hearing that the K&N filters were the best (and costliest), I compared the other brands to the K&N. Only the AC/Delco had a spring affair at the closed end of the filter, just like the K&N filter. All the others (Fram, Purolator, etc.) had just a metal or paper shealth at that end. I ended up buying and using the AC/Delco.When I took off the Toyota filter that came with the Vibe, it also had just the metal shealth, no spring.Has anyone else compared these filters? Any comments?AC Delco makes one of the best for the money... I read a guys comparison on the net once, if you search you will find it. He bought just about every filter he could find, Delco, Motorcraft, Fram, NAPA, MoPar, Car & Driver, on and on, cut them apart and wrote about his findings. The way the AC Delco were made, made them one of the best as far as number of filter paper pleats and by-pass valve in contrast to what people say about Frams. The proof was in his pics too. I always use the original OE filters in my vehicles especially under warranty in case there ever is an engine issue.

[Baltovibe]

I think I found the link you were referring to:http://minimopar.knizefamily.n....htmlThanks!

[ColonelPanic]

Pretty sure my dealer has it in bottles too... They're not of the super sized variety, so it couldn't be economical for them! So, like you, I highly doubt it came in anything other than bottles. I think I'll start changing my own oil again. Might as well take advantage of having the easiest car I've ever had to change oil in. I don't even have to jack this thing up or put it on ramps to slide underneat. I've just been too lazy and maybe even busy to do it myself. Besides, still not too keen on having 10W30 in there. Hasn't blown up yet, but it can't be good, IMHO.I sure hope for the other owner's sake that they aren't using 10W30 in the big V8's that call for Mobil1!

[montreal]

Back in the mid seventies, I had a fairly new Cutlass that had a carbon build-up. What happened was that a flake of built up carbon broke loose but didn’t get flushed out of the cylinder, or the carbon coating where the flake broke away from was very jagged. The net result was a serious case of pinging.It sounded like the piston rod had broken in two and the crankshaft was slamming the attached part of the rod into the crankcase on every rotation of the crank.The dealer was ready to tear apart the V8 engine but the mechanic decided to pour 2 bottles of GM engine cleaner into the carburetor.It worked. Moral of the story - I had a habit of always driving at a constant speed and never allowing the V8 to speed up and blow off any built up carbon.So is the reported ticking sound pre-ignition from carbon or valves clicking because the Vibe motors don't have hydraulic valve lifters like the cars of the seventies? Hydraulic lifters take up any slack between the cam and the valve stem so there is no noise. I believe Vibe valve stems ride directly off the cam lobes so that as the stem or lobe wears a little, there is a gap that opens up and the stem vibrates.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by montreal »So is the reported ticking sound pre-ignition from carbon or valves clicking because the Vibe motors don't have hydraulic valve lifters like the cars of the seventies? Hydraulic lifters take up any slack between the cam and the valve stem so there is no noise. I'm no mechanic, so I'm not quite sure how to explain it. From what I've experienced in the past, pre-ignition was more of a faster "clatter" sort of noise, no? It doesn't sound like that.This is a tick at idle which becomes a knock upon acceleration... Directly proportional to engine speed, and the severity of the noise varies with outside temperature. Although now, it's getting worse - it never used to tick at idle when it was warmed up, now it does.I really don't know where to go with it... But it's not a noise other Vibes with this engine seem to have.

[montreal]

Quote, originally posted by ColonelPanic » From what I've experienced in the past, pre-ignition was more of a faster "clatter" sort of noise, no? It doesn't sound like that.To me, pre-ignition sounds like you shaking a coffee can side to side with a dozen 2" long nails in it.When I had it in the past, it was while accelerating or going up a hill. Modern engines have knock sensors that automatically retard the ignition timing to reduce the pre-ignition. If the knock sensor picks up a signal that only occurs within a fixed time of the spark on one unique cylinder, then the engine computer will differentiate between general pre-ignition and a problem with that unique cylinder, such as a loose piece of carbon about to break loose from the inside of the head or piston.The engine will then declare a code for that cylinder and if you're lucky, it is only the sparkplug that needs to be changed.

[ColonelPanic]

Figured I'd revive this topic and see if anyone else has noticed their engine knocking... Mine is getting worse, still knocks like a beast when cold but eventually quiets down once the engine has warmed up. If it's this loud at 60-70 degrees, I'd hate to hear it this winter. I'll get another recording of it sometime soon.I'm still lost, not sure if there's even anything I can do about it. I'll try the dealer again but it's probably a lost cause. I hope there aren't any other people around who have their engines knocking, it isn't much fun. But if there are any others, feel free to chime in and maybe we can get to the bottom of this.In the meantime, I'm just waiting until the engine blows up. That's about all I can do, I guess. *sigh*

[ToolGuy]

Hey CP, just out of curiosity have you taken the car to a private mechanic, just to have someone listen to it and give their opinion? Also, have you tried to call into that Car Talk radio show with the two brohters, AKA Click & Clack? (Tom and Ray Magliozzi)Seriously, these guys know cars...http://www.cartalk.comOnce they stop joking around and take calls, they do help!

[Limeliz16]

Are all of these Vibe's the GT version or just the base engines? I work for GM (corporate) and am trying to help ya'll out here.

[ToolGuy]

Hello and welcome! ColonelPanic's is a base Vibe. His is the probelm child here.

[ColonelPanic]

Yep, my car is the problem child. This one car probably accounts for 20% of the content here in the Problems & Warranty Issues forum.

[Limeliz16]

Have you resolved the ticking noise? I am a field engineer for GM and some ticking is normal in the base Vibe's engines. Since they are the toyota engine, they will have lifter tick for the first couple minutes on cold, sometimes even warm start up. Anything beyond that is not considered normal. My daughter has a Vibe and hers does tick for approx. 3 minutes on cold starts. Thanks!

[ColonelPanic]

Is it considered normal if they have a rather noticeable knock upon acceleration when the engine is cold? That goes away after the engine warms up, but when it is cold, it sounds like the engine is trying to tear itself to bits.

[ToolGuy]

Quote, originally posted by Limeliz16 »Have you resolved the ticking noise? I am a field engineer for GM and some ticking is normal in the base Vibe's engines. Since they are the toyota engine, they will have lifter tick for the first couple minutes on cold, sometimes even warm start up. Anything beyond that is not considered normal. My daughter has a Vibe and hers does tick for approx. 3 minutes on cold starts. Thanks!Great tip...However CP's car really ticks bad, almost like an engine that needs a valve job and has 200,000 miles on it. He takes care of it, tried different oils and numerous dlr trips only to hear, No Trouble Found - Normal. It is so bad, CP recorded the noise and posted here. I conducted my own test, started my engine on a cold Mich winter day under 30 degrees and it did not tick nearly like CPs cars does. His car is really an exception and his girlfriend can contest to the sounds, hers does not act like Colonel named his car "Sir Knocks A Lot!".

[Limeliz16]

Then I would try taking it to another dealership for diagnosis if CP is still under a warranty. Where is CP located? zip code? if that still doesn't work, I can give ya'll GM's Customer Assistance Number to call and complain about it. Like I said, the lifter TICK is normal, but KNOCKING is not. as a field engineer, I have seen a few engine replacements due to the noise, but not that many. Thanks and let me know!

[Toolman]

My guess is you have a bad lifter, my 4g63 Turbo in my Talon that I sold had this same issue. It was bad when I got it and 25k miles later when I sold it it was still bad. This was VERY common in the Eclipse/Talon communtiy though.