Are extended warm up periods harmful?

[ragingfish]

I've seen this come up a few times on the boards, and frankly, I'm curious.Are extended periods of idling for warm up bad???I remote start my car and let it run 5-10 minutes before jumping in...after all, what good is remote start if the car isn't warm when you hop in!I always figured longer was better -- oil is hotter, so it's thinner, and the engine isn't being put under strain before the oil has a chance to circulate and properly coat the parts...I know the old mantre used to be let it warm up 30-60 seconds before driving off...but I get the impression things have changed, and you SHOULDN'T let a car warm up?Any experts care to elaborate or divulge?Please and thank you!

[StampedeVibe]

I'm not an expert, but there's been a LOT of discussion around here about Kyoto and emission reductions, so I remember a few points.One is that the worst damage is always the first several seconds of startup. The oil is in your pan, not coating your engine, but as long as your oil is not a solid block (like when it's -30), it should coat your engine within a minute or so.So in other words, what they're saying is that a 5-10 minute warm up isn't necessary and doing so will send increase emissions without a significant benefit to reduced engine wear.That's not too hard for me to follow, except when it's -30. Then, I'll warm it up for 10 minutes, emissions my frozen (removed)!

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by StampedeVibe »I'm not an expert, but there's been a LOT of discussion around here about Kyoto and emission reductions, so I remember a few points.What's Kyoto?

[jonathonbarton]

http://mindprod.com/kyoto.htmlWhat Is The Kyoto Accord?The Kyoto Accord is an international treaty whereby countries agree to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases they emit if their neighbours do likewise. It is a very complex agreement that allows trading pollution credits. If it is cheaper to reduce emissions in country A, then country B can buy the pollution credits, and have them count toward its own quota of reductions. Happily, the global atmosphere does not care where the greenhouse gas reductions come from. The current Kyoto round calls for a greenhouse gas emission reduction of 6% in Canada and 5% in the USA. The United States pumps out more CO2 than the entire rest of the world combined. We as as species pump as much CO2 into the air each year as you would get from burning down every tree in Canada each year. Transportation accounts for 40% of the problem. The number of cars is growing world wide ten times faster than the population. Every US gallon of gasoline burned produces 9 kg (20 pounds) of CO2. It would take a large tree about a year to absorb this much CO2.

[Mavrik]

In the summer, I just start up and go. But in the winter time, anywhere from 5-10 mins if its really cold and I need to thaw that ice off the windows before going to work. Otherwise in the winter, a minute warm up should be enough.

[ToolGuy]

No not bad... Can be illegal in some states and a waste of fuel but other then those, no it is not bad and will not hurt. Block heaters are good too. What would not be good is letting it idle for 5-10 minutes without driving and then shutting it off, only to cool down.

[ragingfish]

Yeah, I'm seriously contemplating adding a block heater...NO, I don't NEED it, but I would prefer not having to let my car idle as long to warm it up...if it knocks 4 minutes off my warm up time, that would be worthwhile IMHO...

[DavidPIL]

Hi ragingfish,I can understand not thinking you need one especially being South of the border but honestly, I plug mine in whenever it's not going to get above 30-32 degrees. The car starts up like it's a warm day, wait for the lights to kick on then by the time I'm 3 or 4 blocks down the road, I feel heat from the heater. That's got to be better than letting it idle for 5-10+ minutes. They're not that expensive to purchase and could easily save you a buck or so on each fill-up.Dave

[ragingfish]

Good to know! Thanks man!Hey, if you get a chance (and you have a toasty garage), any chance you can shuffle up underneath there and show me where it would go?

[StampedeVibe]

I don't mean to make fun of you guys down south, but I find it interesting how people define "cold".If it's going to be a high of 0 C (32F), in the winter its considered that it's going to be a warm winter day. On days like those (like today), I tend to warm up the car for like 30 secs to 2 minutes before I drive (w/o plugging it in). When it's like -20C (-4F), I'll probably plug it in and warm up for 5 minutes or so. BTW, I'm talking about temperature w/o windchill.I guess what I'm saying is that the individual definitions of cold have much more of an effect on how much we warm the car up. Anyone agree?

[DavidPIL]

Actually, 0 degrees Celsius/32 degrees Fahrenheit isn't all that bad here either for Winter. I've just noticed that any temp below that, tends to make the car start a little harder (and more progressively as the temps go lower) and causes the idle to be a little higher. That seems to be a nice round number to remember to plug'er in.Dave

[DavidPIL]

ragingfish,I'll do my best. I don't have a digital cam so it won't look to pretty. I have to take all my pictures from video capture so the quality royally sucks. The good thing is that there's an orange tip on the hearer core so it should show up decently. I think you have a CAI so this will also help you see and get to the freeze plug to insert the core. Give me a little time to get out there to take a few pics.Dave

[ragingfish]

Thanks David, I appreciate it!I took the dive, and ordered a block heater and battery warmer. It was only $65 shipped for the combo on partszoneonline.com, and that seems pretty reasonable given the fact a block heater is a $50 option just by itself from the factory...The block heater allegedly comes with instructions...the battery warmer I'm assuming is pretty self explanatory...Of course, I don't NEED it. But if I can knock a few minutes off warm up, that saves not only money from wasted gas, but unecessary emissions from the environment...and of course, I'm sure it'll extend the life of the engine because the cold starts will be softened...As always, will take pics for install walkthrough!!!

[MadBill]

Another downside of extended warm-ups is a disappearing car! Every cold snap there is a big spike in car thefts, due to the ease with which an idling vehicle can be boosted. There was even one last week in Toronto where a cop had hers stolen as it idled in her driveway! Guess she had some 'splainin' to do, since the police keep warning us it's a bad idea...

[ragingfish]

Remote start significantly lessens (but of course does not eliminate) that risk...Without the key, the wheel is locked. In addition, the minute someone pops the hood or hits the brake, the starter cuts out and the engine shuts off.

[tecton]

absolutely nothing wrong with letting your car sit there and runthats what they made it for remember? you got the keys didnt you?more pollution comes out when the engine is turning at 5000 rpms than at 800cars wont last forever, nothing does, but they were made to last a long time and to start up in the winter...dont be affraid, its not like your the only person in history ever to need to drive somewhere in the cold

[Stang2Vibe]

I know that back in the day you were supposed to wait for the engine to warm up a bit so that the choke plate in the carburetor would start to open up. If you tried to drive a carbureted car when it was too cold out without letting it warm up, it would just keep stalling when you gave it throttle because the choke was set to stay closed until the engine was warm enough to accept the cold ambient air. You used to have to press the gas pedal all the way to the floor (that set the choke), release it, then press and hold it about half way down until it started (that fed it more gas into the intake mixture to encourage starting). Some cars, and those before automatic chokes, were equipped with a hand choke somewhere on the dash that the driver controlled manually. It was usually a pull knob that was attached to a cable that ran to the choke plate and pushed it open or closed.Newer cars with fuel injection manage the fuel-air mixture constantly. The computer uses input through several sensors to determine the mixuture and manipulates the choke as temperature, engine temperature, and throttle demand require. It's all done automatically now, but it doesn't reduce the strain on the engine. As soon as the engine starts cranking, oil is being pumped throughout it, though at much lower pressure than when it starts. At warm temperatures and even a little below freezing, oil should be properly circulating fully within seconds after the engine starts--provided that the proper viscosity oil is used. As the temp drops outside, the oil becomes thicker and takes longer to circulate and provide proper protection to the internal parts.I believe that the owner's manual says to allow the engine to idle for about 30 seconds before driving in normal temps. In the cold, it will take longer--probably up to 5 minutes. At warmer temperatures, I usually try to wait the 30 seconds on a dry start. Around freezing, usually I wait about 2 minutes. Colder than that, I will let it run for up to about 10 minutes to melt the snow and ice on the windows and start to make some heat. I can't stand driving in a bulky coat and gloves. I hate driving with a coat on as it is, so I try to wear a lighter coat if I'm driving. The gloves come off as soon as I'm done clearing the windows. I can't steer fast enough with gloves on and the leather wheel slips through my hands too much. When the engine warms up to near operating temperature, at idle, the fuel air mixture is automatically leaned out to use as little fuel as possible and still have the engine run. In PA we are required to have an annual emissions test on any registered vehicle being operated on public roads that is less than 15 years old. The garages are forced to use sophisitcated computerized testing equipment to test the car. It is tested while running at operating temperature both at idle speed and around 2000RPM, I believe. My 2003 Vibe GT is still not making enough pollution at either speed to be detected by the equipment. The pollutants are measured in PPM (parts per million). I get angry because most new cars are this way and it is a total waste of money to force people to pay for this testing if the car is less than 3 years old. You are exempt from this testing if the car was driven less than 5,000 miles in the last year.Now, in addition to the oil viscosity issue with warming up the engine in the cold is engine deposits. It has been shown that prolonged warmup periods lead to carbon deposits building up in the upper engine, particularly in the upper heads and valves. This is very bad for the engine. So it's important to warm up the engine, but also to not let it warm up for too long all the time.

[DavidPIL]

Hi ragingfish,Sorry this has taken so long to get back to you. I'm having issues with my camcorder... apparently they don't like being out in the cold for long periods either. I left it in the Vibe since last weekend when I was working in Knoxville...Anywho... I'm not sure even pictures will help much but I hope these come through. What I did was followed the picture on the instruction sheet. I don't honestly remember anything other than the picture that helped me. It was a drawing so it wasn't very clear.I located the freeze plug hole with a flashlight. It's about 8" in a diagonal path from the Throttle Body/Intake opening. All it is is a bored out hole.This is hard to see because of my lighting but it'll give you an idea where to look.Once I found the hole, I tried to locate it with a finger. I knew I wouldn't be able to see in that space while trying to insert the heater core so I tried to get a feel for it while not looking.I then took the core (probe) and tried to maneuver it into the hole. You'll probably have better luck trying to go under any hoses that are near the hole. It was just easier for me, and yes, I tried it several ways.If you're able to get the core into the hole without to much problem, push it all the way in. There is a clip that's supposed to hold it in place. Mine didn't click or anything, it just stopped going in. I don't know if you can see but I circled the orange tip of the heater core.Run the cord (inside the wire loom)under the Intake tube, attaching it to a larger wire loom, around the battery and up where the old Intake opening would have been. The instructions are fairly clear on that though.Not a lot of steps to do. The longest part for me was just finding the freeze plug/hole thing. The rest is easy.Dave

[Stang2Vibe]

Quote, originally posted by DavidPIL »Once I found the hole, I tried to locate it with a finger. I knew I wouldn't be able to see in that space while trying to insert the heater core so I tried to get a feel for it while not looking.I then took the core (probe) and tried to maneuver it into the hole. You'll probably have better luck trying to go under any hoses that are near the hole. It was just easier for me, and yes, I tried it several ways.If you're able to get the core into the hole without to much problem, push it all the way in. There is a clip that's supposed to hold it in place. Mine didn't click or anything, it just stopped going in. What the...???Oh, wait. You're talking about a block heater installation. Phew!

[DavidPIL]

heheheyou know, I described this a few months ago and I seriously had to go back and change some of the wording because it seemed to be turning into some kinky porn text or an episode of Southpark.

[MadBill]

As far as how long you need to have a vehicle plugged in: It was -24 C. (-11 F.) here last night. I plugged in our Buick Park Avenue (3800 cc iron V-6), which was not driven yesterday, a little before 8 AM. At 9 AM, when the ambient had risen to -15C. (+5 F.), the coolant temp was up to 8 C. (18 F.) From this, I'd say you don't really need more than a couple of hours at anything above say -15 F.

[Stang2Vibe]

We plug in the block heaters on our Mack trucks at work the night before they are to be used. The electrical outlets that they are plugged into are on a timer and it is set to let the heaters turn on for about 3 to 3 1/2 hours. It makes the trucks FAR easier to start.

[ragingfish]

Thanks David!Looks to be a VERY easy install! I figured I'd have to go under the car and it went somewhere in the lower block...*phew*!

[zionzr2]

seems to me the only thing that warm up time will hurt is your MPG....

[DavidPIL]

Hi ragingfish,Sorry the screen captures didn't come out better. The sad thing is that those came out tons better than captures I took of the car to sell the wheels and for my avitar.yeah, it was an easy chore. maybe a 2 out of 10 for difficulty for me but only because 1. I couldn't find the hole using the diagram provided and 2. My intake Filter box was in the way.I would suggest using the heater whenever you're planning on starting the vehicle when it's under 32 degrees. That seems to be where I notice the biggest difference in how the car starts. Dave

[ragingfish]

Wooo!Block heater came in today (very speed I must say!)Hope to have it installed in under 30 minutes...

[DavidPIL]

Thanks for scaring the cold weather away... at least for a little while. Let us know how easy the install is and let me know if my photos helped at all...Dave

[ragingfish]

Ah David!I just realized you have a GT...the hole is differently located on the GT...crapper! I still can't find it on my block......oh well, back to searching...

[DavidPIL]

oops. I believe it's in the same area though. The drawing that came with it doesn't help much but should get you in the general area.Sorry.Dave

[ragingfish]

no need to apologize, your help is appreciated.Unfortunately, I THINK I found the hole...it's way down low, and behind half a dozen hozes...and nearly inaccessible.After about 2 hours, daylight is now diminishing, so I finally gave up, and will try again tomorrow...I'd hate to have to resort to having the dealer put it in...

[ragingfish]

It took some work...But I finally managed to get that stinkin heater core in!But damn was it a pain!!!!NOTE: THIS pictures is REAL! I had to get UP on the freakin car to jam that puppy into place...

[Jahntassa]

I like the foam insulation...that's lovely..

[ragingfish]

Dude, that tie bar just bites into you...I have a mark still from the hood release latch...

[ColonelPanic]

Wow! That looks like you've gotta be a contortionist to put that thing in. If I could have a place to plug the thing in at night, I wouldn't mind getting one myself though.

[ragingfish]

Two words my friend.EXTENSION CORD. I normally park outside.

[ColonelPanic]

Yeah, I could go that route... But I'm on the second floor of an apartment. So the cord is gonna kinda get in the way. May tick off the landlady and stuff having a cord stretched out to the parking area. lol

[ragingfish]

hmm...true...

[ColonelPanic]

Then again, they may not even notice. The neighbors are always stringing an extension cord out there to use power tools of some description on their trucks. lolBut youbetcha, even though it isn't that cold around here, once I get a place where I can do it, I'm going for the heater. The Vibe's engine loves to be warm and toasty when firing it up.

[ragingfish]

Lemme know when you get it, I'll give you some pointers on how to get it in there in half the effort (and time) it took me.

[ColonelPanic]

Sounds like a good plan to me... I'm hoping to get out of the ol' apartment and get into a house sometime soon, so I may just go ahead and get the heater.

[goodvibe]

When cold the engine runs quite rich and the faster you can get it warmed up without stressing things the better. Your dealing with incomplete combustion causing carbon build up and gas actually contaminating the oil. The contamination will fix itself with an extended warm run. Idling is known to do this even in warm engines. I wait until the motor quites down a bit (oil flow to head) and then drive slowly until warm. 15 sec. to a minute depending on temp. Block heaters , though I don't use one. I'm garaged at home and work.

[sidewinder]

I am so glad to see that they made the engine blockheater a factory installed item on the 04 vibe. I can't beleive how many people come into our dealership in the winter wanting a blockheater installed on their new car. Evidendly our stupid sales people haven't found the button on the computer that makes a factory installed engine blockheater come with the car. Some of these heater can be a real pain in the (removed) to install and the labor cost is considerable so even if you don't use one it is nice to have just in case. I have plugged mine in during cold weather and left in plugged all night and It just made the engine block warm to the touch but I am sure it would make a real difference between starting a car and not getting it started in really cold weather. I am sure it is better on a engine started in sub zero weather with the blockheater plugged in than one that is started without the blockheater.

[nismo]

Are you serious? The 2004 Vibes come with the block heater from the factory? It's not an option?

[DavidPIL]

um... wow, didn't take half that effort for the GT. Where's your head? That's definitely NOT a 2 outta 10 for difficulty... heheDave

[ragingfish]

GT has it much easier...the hole is towards the front of the block. The hole on the 1ZZ is all the way in the rear lower part of the block...under the heater hoses...NOT easy to get to. I had to move the main wire harness out of the way, remove the battery (so I could get my head in to see the hole), even undo the VSV and MAF sensor wires so I could push it all out of the way.I give this one a 6 out of 10...because it's needlessly difficult.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by goodvibe »When cold the engine runs quite rich and the faster you can get it warmed up without stressing things the better.I'll say! I got a whiff of the exhaust the other day after starting the car up, practically smelled like it was shooting raw gasoline out the tailpipe. It stunk!Silver, that's too funny! Humpin' the vibe! Woo hoo, maybe I'll get to do that soon when I put mine in... Hey, everybody has to have a bit of action every now and then eh? (removed)!

[ragingfish]

Never got around to putting in pics of the final install...So I dremeled out a groove in the upper grille so the heater cord could stick out and I could close the hood safely.Of course, had I bothered to look, I would've noticed there's pretty good clearance between the top of the grilles and the hood, and I could've passed the cord through wtihout a problem. Oh well. "Look ma, I'm almost Canadian!" Decided today, however, I had a better idea. Widened the groove a bit, and now I can safely pass the extension cord into the engine bay. This way, I don't have the connection between heater cord/extension cord out in the elements where I run the risk of a short or anything from water in the plug... It's snowing tonight, and I got the car plugged in. I tried it once already, worked amazingly. Let the car heat overnight, didn't even remote start! Just started the car, unplugged the heater, hid the cord, drove off. By the time I was 1 mile down the road, the car was warmed up and already blowing hot air. These things are worth it!!!! No more wasted gas via idling...I will say this, they definitely pull some juice...I plugged in the heater and the garage lights dimmed.