Windshield Fogging & Frosting on the INSIDE ! Anyone else have this problem?

[Pittal D'Ora]

I have had my Vibe for ~ 2 months now and have had a problem withthe windshield (and sometimes windows) fogging up (and lately frosting) on the INSIDE.No. I do not have "recirculate" on. and have tried turning the AC on but doesn't seem to help. Does anyone have an idea on what could be wrong? I have tried all the possible combinations (including those mentioned in the user manual) but to no avail.It doesn't seem to have much correlation with rainfall/snowfall. Today, for eg, was bright and sunny but this evening when I got back to my car after work the windshield was frosted good (I had the fan in defrost mode all through my morning drive) . It happened yesterday too. Both days the temperatures have been below freezing most of the day. I have never had this problem with frost on the inside in my other cars. In the 2 months I have had my vibe, I have had this fogging/frosting problem more than 6 times.I initially thought, I wasn't operating the controls right. I went through all possible combinations ( and read the user manual to understand how the controls work). But nothing works.It appears that the humidity is trapped inside the car and is causing this problem. Running the AC should have gotten rid of the excess humidity but doesn't seem to be doing much good.I'm wondering if there is something wrong with the HVAC in my car?Can somebody clue me in on what could be wrong.Does anyone else have this problem or seen this kind of problem?

[MadBill]

I was all set to jump in with the "Recirculate Mode" excuse, as I've seen it often on Japanese design cars! The only other reasonable possibility is unnoticed water leaks, giving a source for the moisture. Seems unlikely though that: a. This would happen and b. That you wouldn't notice, so my guess is that some defect is causing the system to operate in recirculate mode, regardless of how you tweak the controls. (BTW, the A/C compressor doesn't operate below ~ 40 F., to prevent freeze up of the evaporator coil.) I'd suggest you get the dealer to check out the HVAC controls.

[jhauxfan]

I just had the same problem with my old S-10 truck. The cause of my problem was that the heater core had a hole in it. When the fan would blow air across the coil it would pick up the moisture and blow it on my windshield. I had a strong smell of anit-freeze in the cabin. You may have the same problem. I doubt that a NEW car would develop a hole but it might have a loose seal somewhere. Definately call the dealer.

[Hawke]

There is an electric motor that controls the recirs operation, maybe it's not working and it's stuck in recirc. You should be able to check to see if it's stuck in recirc yourself. Turn the fan on high, put the mode so it's blowing on your face and then press the recirc button a few times and check to see if you notice a change in the sound. Wait for about 20 seconds or so between presses as the change isn't instant but kind of gradual.

[JayAyeEm]

I'm sorry folks. I tried to resist posting this, but in the end I could not help myself.Could this issue be related to either of these threads?http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id ... ad?id=1930

[Hawke]

Also make sure that the water removed from the air is draining properly. If the drain is plugged, water will be sitting in the HVAC system in your dash. This is something a dealer would probably have to do.

[Pittal D'Ora]

Thank you for the responses. I appreciate the help and the pointers.It does appear from your responses that there is something indeed wrong with the HVAC on my car (most probably the recirculate button/motor/vent). I'll take it in to a local Boston area dealer to have it checked out. (I bought it from a dealer in Vermont and haven't had a good experience with them... ). Any ideas on how to tread this with a (local) dealer who did not sell me the car?I could not find any water leaks or dampness anywhere in the car. And there doesn't seem be any particular smell (other than the "new car" smell).I did check to see that recirculate works. It makes a different noise when in recirculate mode (and fan at high). I'll double check,however.Pardon my ignorance:How does one check that the water/moisture removed (during AC operation) is draining Ok or not? Where do I look? I'll let you all know how it goes with the dealer.Thanks once again! You are a great bunch

[Hawke]

quote:How does one check that the water/moisture removed (during AC operation) is draining Ok or not? Where do I look?There is a drain tube that runs from the HVAC case down underneath the car where it drains to the ground. This is why you see a puddle underneath cars after or when the A/C is on. You could turn the A/C on and watch for drips under the car, but you probably don't have the right weather for it since you are in Boston. The dealer will have to check it for you. They'll probably do a visual inspection, not sure what else.As far as the service thing ... you're bringing them business and $$ paid to them by GM for warranty work. They should take care of you without a problem.

[nkaltso]

I have the same problem and I found out that if the two outside forward facing vents are fully open they are large enough to keep all of the air away from the windshield deforster. So try it out when your windshield fog up close those vents and see what happensThis is the one Item I marked the car down on my JD Power survey.

[Frosty Girl]

I also live in a "cold" climate and am having the same problem. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one with this "slight" problem. Any solutions??

[Frosty Girl]

Any luck with the dealer??

[nkaltso]

Im taking it into the dealer on Monday. Ill keep everyone posted

[Pittal D'Ora]

Update: I took my car into the dealer earlier this week and described to theservice advisor the problem (including the possible problems that Genvibe members pointed out).After about ~ 2 hours they said that there was "no condensation found on wind shield" (as noted by the service technician) and returned my car. What morons! It was 45 F dry and sunny outside, much warmer in the service bays.When I complained the service advisor said that they coudn't find anything and that I'd need to bring car in when the problem reappears.I protested saying that it has happened a few times before and I was a 100% sure that there was definetely going to an occurance since they DID NOT DO ANYTHING about the problem. The service advisor didn't like my choice of words and said that they could not replicate the problem. I was spiffed that I spent so much time for nothing. I asked to speak to the technician so that I could ask him whether he had checked the areas I had earlier mentioned to the sevice adivsor. When I spoke with him, I found to my surprise that the service advisor did not put in any explanation or areas to be looked at in the work order! The tech. just looked for moisture on the windshield and didn't find anything (see earlier comments about the weather that day).I asked to see the manager as I felt they had performed shoddy work.Then explained to the service manager the whole issue.He came out with me to the car, checked the controls. Confirmed that the recirculate mode was indeed off (by listening to the recirc fan's sound) . He also said that the AC/evaporator(?) drain pipe also was not pinched/clogged otherwise my front carpets would have been wet. He was the most helpful person at the dealership, he atleast answered my questions!. He said that there was nothing that they could do as the problem could not be diagnosed without seeing the frosting actually happening. I am extremely frustated with this problem.So it appears that I may have to take it in again (perhaps to another dealer) with no guarantee that it would be fixed.I did a little bit of searching around on GenVibe and found a reference to a US-DOT customer complaint info and a Service bulletin about a similar problem (sb629757.pdf) but I could not find the "blue tinted" drain hoses referred there in my car. BTW, I have the Moonroof, do others who have similar problems also have a moonroof?NKALTSO: I too found the same information in the user manual (which, IMO, is very badly written: Eg. there are no figures to show which vents/slots they mean when they refer to them by name). The problem occurs even when I follow the instructions mentioned in the manual.The problem is driving me nuts. I need to warm up and defrost the car for 15 mins for a 15 min commute, a 100% increase in commute time.I'd like to call Pontiac QA and talk to them about this problem. Any ideas on how to do this? I hope they have a "Tarrytown meeting" like event in the Boston area so that I can have them have a look at my vibe. In short: No fix to the problem so far

[Frosty Girl]

Sorry to hear about the bad luck u had at the dealer. I also have a sunroof and am having exactly the same problem. It is pretty cold out again today, but (knock on wood) the windows don't seem to be all frosty today...I'll keep you posted!

[Vibenaround]

Windshield fogging has been a problem on every Japanese car I have owned. Since the Vibe uses Toyota parts I guess it qualifies too.Although I don't like doing it, running the A/C with the fan seems to do the trick.What really was annoying me though, was the winshield fogging when the car was parked. (With no one in the car).I found that this would happen if the dial was left set on one of the defrost settings. If I left the setting on heat (using the bottom vents only) then the front window didn't seem to fog up. I can only guess that the upper vents remain open on the defrost setting allowing air to hit directly up against the windshield causing it to fog.I hope this helps.

[nkaltso]

Update "THIS IS A MUST READ ALL OF OUR CARS HAVE THIS PROBLEM READ WHY"I took my Vibe to the delear today for the following problems1. Restricted low airflow in the defrost position2 No air in the windshield defroster when the car is in the "floor / windshield deforster Position"3. Fogging of the windshieldI also stipulated that I was driving at 70mph the other day the windshield fogged up and I put the car in the floor/windshield position and the fog did not go away. Making for a very dangerous situation at a high speed.This is what the dealer told me they did.1. they called Pontiac and asked for help for this problem2. checked the service manual for the procedure on how to fix the problem and they went thru the necessary steps and found everything was operating normally3. then they sampled 3 new cars from the lot and noticed that they all had the same condition of low air flow in the above mentioned positions.So I was told that my car was to spec and no problems because the new cars on the lot did the same thing.I let them that there is a safty issue then because when my car in the in windshield postion has no air flow which is a Violation of Federal laws. Then the delear started to get nervous. I asked for a letter stating "for leagal purposes" that when my car is in the defrost position it is made to have no airflow so when I do get in an accident I can present the letter to the jury. Also I wanted compensation for being sold a car that did not do what it was susposed to do.Then they took me to the store manger but he was busy at the time. I have a latter appoitment with him. THey mentioned that I had to talk to the 800-pontiac number and state my complaint. I told them if I was the delear was going to do it with me. So to sum things up this car needs to be recalled to fix a retricted defroster problem that causes a fogging windshield. If more of us use the same approach with Pontiac / Toyota this problem will get fixed. I will keep everyone posted on my progressGood luck at the dealer, I will post a simular Post under the warrenty section for others to see.Nick

[Pittal D'Ora]

Nkaltso: I agree with you. There is a safety issue here with this fogging problem.I am a 100% convinced that there is something wrong with my car. And it appears that I am not the only one with this problem. Something is not working right in the HVAC area. Is there someway that we can bring this to Pontiac's attention?What happened to all those Pontiac engineers who supposedly frequent this site and read users' comments?Back from travel (in another car) over this weekend, I cleaned up the snow on my vibe(from the snowstorm we have had here) this morning (fan in defrost posn all the time) and went back into my apartment. Later this afternoon went out to check the car out, fill gas etc getting ready to go to work tomorrow, I found that the windshield and all the windows were fogged up (again!) on the inside. After a 15 min defogging/defrosting operation (with all combinations of the controls including AC on), the fogging on the windshield and the windows was still not gone. I now resort to carrying some Bounty Paper Towels to wipe off the the moisture for the windshield, it's just too bad otherwise.Driving around for another 45 mins I could not get the fogging on the front and rear windows (those on the rear passenger doors, not the peep-holes at the back) cleared, no matter what controls were operated: defog, defog with air to feet, Fresh air, AC on..... Putting the mode control in Foot&Face mode (i.e ~ 10 oclock orientation) fogged the windshield and the front windows up very quicklySomething is not right with this. I have never had so much trouble getting rid of moisture in my car.Somebody mentioned that AC doesn't come on below 40 F but I tried it on 'cos for some reason I think turning the AC on with heat should help get the interior rid of moisture.Perhaps, I should ask for this "For legal purposes" document when I take my car in to the dealership next time.... I am totally frustated with this problem and would do anything to get the problem fixed. Can we take a count of the number of people having this or similar problems? How does one go about setting up this survey? UPDATE:Managed to set up the poll: Vote Now! http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=2119

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by nkaltso »Update "THIS IS A MUST READ ALL OF OUR CARS HAVE THIS PROBLEM READ WHY"Except mine.No problems here!

[joatmon]

There have been a number of members here who have had problems with interior humidity. There were some threads about the problem last winter about frost on the inside, this past summer several new owners had fogging problems, now that it's geting colder some members are reporting icing problems again. It is an issue for some people, may not be for others. It may be the HVAC actuator door, or possibly some other cause. Since it is not a consistent, uniform problem for all vibe owners, it is likley to be some failure or misadjustment, instead of an inherent inability of the air system design to keep the windows clear. For those that have the problem, it is a serious safety issue.

[Stang2Vibe]

It may also be a sign that the Vibe is a well sealed car. If humidity is getting trapped in the car and not released, the car may just seal tighter than most. Could also be an HVAC problem like you noted.This happened to my mom's house. When we built the house, we ordered and paid extra for a higher grade of insulation and had a Tyvek "housewrap" installed. When the first winter came, the windows on the house kept fogging up and creating a lot of condensation. We thought we had a bad batch of windows and had the window people come out and check out the windows several times. After a few visits, they contacted the builder and found that we had the extra insulation and the housewrap. They said this was a common problem with houses that are tightly sealed like this and that the house wasn't "breathing" like it would with the usual inslulation and everything. The humidity was getting so high that the basement walls were sweating real bad and water began running on the basement floor. My stepdad went out and bought a heavy duty dehumidifier and installed it in the basement. The thing ran constantly for the first few weeks until the air in the house reached a reasonable humidity level and it began to cycle normally. The A/C condenser on a car is supposed to automatically dehumidify the air as needed when the HVAC system is operating. Perhaps there is a common problem with this system or it is not heavy duty enough to do the job?

[joatmon]

Well, for what it's worth, my vibe doesn't have the problem either, but I would like to find out what the problem is, find a solution for those that do have the problem. The part that ragingfish quoted did make it seem like it was a universal problem.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by squirrelly vibe »i agree. it just seemed the tone of the thread was "everyone has this problem," and i think ragingfish and i are just pointing out that it doesn't seem to be a problem with all vibes...at least not our two anyway...i'm sure he didn't, and i sure didn't, intend to discount anyone's concerns...Thanks squirrel man, that's exactly it. I was trying to point out this was not a universal problem...I NEVER intend to discount anyone's concerns, especially with something as complex and (what can be) deadly as a car.Y'all should know me by now...I don't discount! FULL PRICE BABY!Quote, originally posted by joatmon »but I would like to find out what the problem is, find a solution for those that do have the problem.I agree joatmon, I'm curious to see when and if the source of the problem is discovered.

[nkaltso]

I think it is a universal problem it just depends were you are at and the weather conditions at that location. Last week the fogging started up on be again it was very cold and hummind out side at that time.All I can say that you write a complaint to the NHTSA. As a Pontiac Zone rep told me only they have enough complaints they will not issue a campaign or recall. THis was in regards to my DRL going off when shadows hit them and that was his answer when I told him I was going to file a complaint. What do you know the next day I got a new DRL modual and it works just fine now. The 15 sec delay is gone.So the moral of the story is if we do not complain in masses to the NHTSA nothing will get done. There are enough of us here to get the job done we just need to do it.Here is the site to complainhttp://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

[iburgess]

There's nothing wrong here folks. When you park most cars, if you leave the heating controls switched to defrost on the windshield, and if you leave the heat setting on high, then warm air will continue to rise from the defrost vents after you've parked. The warm are rises and hits your now cool or cold windshield, and this will cause condensation to build. Then, if it's really cold out, the condensation will freeze. Hence, frost on the inside of your vehicle. This will happen with most cars in cold weather. (Trust me, I live in Canada.)To fix this is simple. When you park your car, turn the heat knob to cold, and also turn the vent control either to the dash vents or the floor vents. Do this everytime you park your car, and I can almost guarantee you that you will never return to a frosted interior window.CHEERS!

[joatmon]

Good point, but ...Some people have had problems where the fogging/icing doesn't occur until they are driving the car, and then have problems with the HVAC system not being able to generate enough warm dry airflow to the windshield to clear it back off. Maybe problems with air flow, air direction selection, air temperature. I do not think it is a "universal" problem, but some people have had issues that indicate some actual system malfunction in their individual car.There have a lot of threads on the issue, maybe some of those who have had the problem can avoid it by doing what you said. Might not work for the others though. Wouldn't have helped silverawd26 in the thread he linked. Wouldn't help Frosty Girl (who may have a thermostat problem). Wouldn't have helped SgrPlum, who had the temperature cable come loose while set to cold. There are a lot of possible causes for having the windshield fog excessively. Maybe we can come up with a set of steps to take that people can use to either eliminate or diagnose "fogging/icing" problems.

[Vibe Rater]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »Maybe we can come up with a set of steps to take that people can use to either eliminate or diagnose "fogging/icing" problems. That is an excellent idea.Start with the cheapest, easiest solutions first.I'll start.1) Check if the 'RECIRCULATE' BUTTON/CABLE is stuck closed, thereby not allowing fresh air to enter the cabin2) As stated in an earlier thread, move the HVAC settings to 'COLD' and away from the 'DEFROST' setting when the car is parked. 3) Check if the A/C is working at all. (Difficult to do in the winter)4) Check if the Mode Adjust cable is connected and adjusted properly. Maybe when the dial says it is on the defrost mode, it actually isn't.5) Check if your thermostat is stuck open (the engine will never warm up).ETC.

[joatmon]

good list. Here's some more, but not combined with your list1. If there is fog or frost on the inside of the windshield when coming back to the car after a while, try setting the Mode knob to the Floor position and the Temp knob to cold when stopping and leaving the car.2. If the windhield fogs up while driving, set Mode to Defrost,adjust Temp to hot, and turn the Fan up. Make sure that the Recirc button is off. 3. If the air coming out of the air system is not warm or hot:- Is the engine warmed up to normal operating temperature? If the engine never warms up enough, it may be a bad thermostat, stuck open.- Check the temp control cable to make sure that it is still connectedto the air system. Look on the passengerside of the center dash, about where a front passenger's left knee would contact the center console.4. Is there air flow out the defroster vents? If not then maybe theair inlet is clogged, the mode control cable is loose, the cabin air filter is clogged, or the mode control mechanism is loose or broken.Try adjusting the mode switch and verify that it properly selects where the air comes out. If set to defrost, then little or no air should come outof the center dash or floor vents. Closing the outer dash vents and settinghe fan to high and mode to defrost should give airflow out the defrost thatyou can feel.Also, the owner's manual provides this info on the 5 options of the "Mode" control:(Vent): This position directs the airflow though theupper instrument panel outlets.(Bi-Level): This position directs the airflowthrough the upper instrument panel vents and towardthe floor.(Floor): This position directs the airflow towardthe floor and through the right and left side vents. Theside vents can be shut off to allow for more air to bedirected toward the floor.(Defog): This position directs the airflowtoward the floor, the windshield and the side windows.The air also comes from both vents at the ends of theinstrument panel.(Defrost): This position directs the airflow to thewindshield and side windows. The air also comes fromboth vents at the ends of the instrument panel.For maximum defrosting and defogging, adjust thetemperature knob to hot, use outside air mode and shutoff airflow to the outside instrument panel vents toincrease air through the side defroster vents.

[threekrows]

I don't have any fogging unless I have a car full of people,but my hvac system seems to clear it up pretty quickly.ANYWAY---I noticed a couple people that are having concerns said they have a moonroof.Maybe the roof isn't draining properly,or moisture is somehow not getting out of the car from these drains before it evaporates and gets inside the car?...just a thought to go along with some good suggestions I have seen so far...

[johnsoax]

I have fogging, but only when driving at night and the HVAC system can easily take care of it. I also have the sunroof. I have never had trouble with coming back to the car and it being fogged. I rarely use the defrost posistions. I never have problems on my normal 25 min communte. I only have the problems when I drive long trips.

[red]

i have fogging and icing also, mostly related to moisture and temp inversions that we experience here in the winter, what is worrisome is how long it takes the system to clear this up!!! vibs are not the only ones experiencing this issuse....my company has a 2000 and 2001 ford tauruses (sp) and both get so bad you only have the windshield to see out of....has anyone noticed that alot of asian vehicles do this ? is it something about the designed hvac systems in asian designed/built cars that trap moisture?