Losing coolant again!

[ColonelPanic]

Back in the summer of 2003, I started noticing a smell of coolant when the engine was warm if I was standing outside the car. Checked the coolant level in the reservior, found that it was about halfway between full and low with the engine hot. Looked around, but couldn't find anything leaking. Brought it to the dealer, they couldn't find anything either. Topped off the reservior, and I kept on driving. A little bit later, the smell was still there, and I was once again at the halfway point in the jug. Brought it back in, they pressure tested/etc but found nothing out of the ordinary. Once again, topped it off and I kept dirving.Shortly thereafter, the smell went away, oddly enough. The coolant level remained fairly stable. Had it flushed last summer, and since then, the coolant has remained near the full mark when hot. Until now.Last night, I discovered that I'm smelling it again. Checked the coolant level, it was below the halfway point after being on the road for ~2 hours. Very odd, you can certainly smell coolant (strongest around the passenger's side) yet I still can't find anything leaking. Checked all the hoses/etc, nothing appears out of the ordinary. No drips in the driveway after sitting, nothing. I can see an internal leak causing the level to drop with no noticeable leakage elsewhere, but to be able to smell it? It seems like it is dripping on something hot, that's for sure. And very odd to have the problem disappear, only to come back later on.Thankfully, it isn't running hot. Temp gauge stays a hair below the halfway point at all times once the engine has warmed.Any suggestions, or has anyone ran across this problem before? I'll let my GM extended warranty to pay for it and have Mr. Goodwrench take a look again... But any insight on this would be appreciated!

[Mavrik]

well I haven't run into this myself with the Vibe but checking the heater core might be a good idea. I would imagine your using your heat a little more now? If your smelling it from the passanger side... just an area to check, I could be wrong I'm no mechanic but I have seen this issue with a grand prix now and then.but I'd have that checked.Sit inside the vehicle. Close all of the doors and windows. Start the engine. Allow the engine idle at normal operating temperature. Select the maximum blower speed. Select the panel air outlet mode. Select the coldest temperature setting. Cycle through all of the blower speeds, modes and temperatures to define what type of odor is present. Musty smell Coolant smell Oil smell Does the odor have a musty smell? Go to Step 2 Go to Step 8 2 Inspect the HVAC filter for debris.Is the HVAC filter clean of debris? Go to Step 3 Go to Step 4 3 Inspect the passenger compartment filter for odor. If the filter has an odor, replace the filter. Did you replace the filter? Go to Step 16 Go to Step 5 4 Remove any debris from the filter.Is the action complete? Go to Step 16 -- 5 Inspect for wet carpeting. Is the carpet wet? Go to Step 6 Go to Step 15 6 Inspect for the following conditions:Water leaks around the windshield Blockage of the HVAC module drain Leaks around the door seals Blockage of the plenum drain Is a leak present? Go to Step 7 Go to Step 15 7 Repair the leak as necessary.Is the repair complete? Go to Step 16 Go to Step 8 8 Does the odor have a coolant smell? Go to Step 9 Go to Step 13 9 Inspect the cooling system for leaks. Refer to Loss of Coolant in Engine Cooling.Is a leak present in the engine compartment? Go to Step 10 Go to Step 11 10 Repair the coolant leak as necessary.Is the repair complete? Go to Step 16 -- 11 Inspect for coolant leaking inside the vehicle or for a film build-up on the windshield.Is the condition present? Go to Step 12 Go to Step 16 12 Replace the heater core. Refer to Heater Core Replacement .Is the repair complete? Go to Step 16 -- 13 Does the odor have an oily smell? Go to Step 14 Go to Step 16 14 Inspect the engine compartment for any leaks. Refer to the following procedures: Oil Leak Diagnosis in Engine Mechanical - 1.8L (LNK) and Oil Leak Diagnosis in Engine Mechanical - 1.8L (LV6). Power Steering Fluid Leaks in Power Steering System Repair any oil leaks. Is the repair complete? Go to Step 16 -- 15 A musty odor can be caused by mold or mildew build up on the evaporator or the heater core or inside of the HVAC module. Refer to Odor Correction .Is the action complete? Go to Step 16 -- 16 Operate the system in order to verify the repair.Is the repair complete? If that helps you, hopefully

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik »If that helps you, hopefully Man, does it ever! Thank ya! I'll probably give those guys a call at the shop today to schedule an appointment, and do a bit more investigating on my own before I bring it in...

[Mavrik]

any time if that gets your mechanic in one of the directions to get your Vibe all fixed up right.

[Baltovibe]

Any chance of a blown head gasket?I had a car once (Ford Escort) that occasionally leaked antifreeze into the engine, diluting the oil. Only happened rarely, but gave that smell when it did it. It was determined to be a very marginal leak in the head gasket, and was replaced under warrenty.

[Mavrik]

an internal leak would appear in the oil by turning the oil into a soupy grey liquid and you would have a sludge buildup on the oil cap. its a possibility but would leak all the time instead of now and then. Wonder what the toyota guys would have to say about this, its their engine after all lol

[ToolGuy]

How many miles are on your car?

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by Mavrik »Wonder what the toyota guys would have to say about this, its their engine after all lolThat's what I would like to know. I think I remember seeing something similar on a Corolla forum out there somewhere, but I can't remember where or what the exact problem was. So yes, any Toyota gurus out there, please feel free to chime in! Where is the heater core located? I'm thinking under the dash, but not 100% sure on that one. I can't say that I have any issues with film on the windshield or more fogging than the norm... But, I did detect an ever so slight aroma of coolant coming from the vents this morning on the ride home. If it is under the dash, I wonder if I have something else under the hood that has problems as well, which leads to the odor outside the car?Haven't noticed any symptoms that would indicate a head gasket or other sort of internal leak so far. The oil doesn't show any signs, and no sludging... Could be though, I don't want to rule anything out at this point.MiVibeToolGuy, I'm at 36,800 miles at the moment. The first visit was around 15,000 and the second shortly before 20,000. Coolant was flushed at 29,000.I'm bringing her in Monday. I guess I'll find out then! Thanks for all the input, and I'll keep you guys posted.

[Mavrik]

the core is located in the dash on the passanger side I think. Having not actually seen one apart, I can't tell you exactly where for sure.

[Baltovibe]

Quote, originally posted by Baltovibe »Any chance of a blown head gasket?I had a car once (Ford Escort) that occasionally leaked antifreeze into the engine, diluting the oil. Only happened rarely, but gave that smell when it did it. It was determined to be a very marginal leak in the head gasket, and was replaced under warrenty.I am remembering more about the Escort now. The head gasket had a very small leak that was allowing a very small amount of coolent to enter the combustion chamber. Most of it got burned up and exhausted (which probably gave the smell), but some coolent must have slipped past the rings and slowly diluted the oil. Again, it was a very slow process, so it took awhile for it to show up.I also had a Chevy Cavalier that got a cracked head. When it cracked, it poured coolent right into the oil passages. It happened on the highway, and I remember losing power instantly and hearing the engine knock. That quick! Obviously, the engine was toast by then!

[Mavrik]

yeah those old 2.2 litre engines on those early cavaliers and sunfires even had a recall on those gaskets for blowing like that. Well it wasn't a recall exactly, more like a customer notice to get it in and checked out with any problems fixed by GM for a one time only deal before the km limit or year deadline was met.

[ColonelPanic]

Had some issues with the head gasket on my Corsica with the same 2.2 that I had many years ago as well. Weirdest thing, a tiny amount of coolant would bubble out from the head... At least I think it was the head gasket that was dying, I didn't keep the car for that much longer to find out. Now I wonder if I could have coolant seeping out from somewhere, hitting the engine and steaming up... Don't know!

[trocar]

I don't know if this may help, but at the beginning of the summer, I had a similar problem that was diagnosed as the fins within the Rad had collapsed, and as a result the rad was holding more coolant than normal. I had to get the rad replaced, which was about a 5 day turn around because GM is not stocking parts for the vibe as there has been very few problems. At least that was the story.I noticed the problem because I was getting little to no heat from from the HVAC. Problem was that the fins were not channeling the coolent to the heater core. Might be something to lookat if you are not seeing any leaks.

[ColonelPanic]

About the rad - that's something interesting... I never considered that. Sounds like a good possibility to me! It's going somewhere and since I haven't noticed any leakage, that may be a good thing to check out.I'll run that by them tomorrow when I bring it in...

[ColonelPanic]

Ugh... Third time wasn't a charm. They put the car up on the rack, checked everywhere... No traces of any coolant leaking onto the engine or anywhere else for that matter. Did another pressure test, and it is still within specs. Once again, they were scratching their heads like they were the last two times.So, they just told me to keep driving it, and bring it back when coolant starts to disappear again. They told me to not top it off next time, I added some water to bring it up to full from it being halfway to the low mark yesterday.. I took some masking tape and stuck it to the jug... Took a permanent marker and marked the coolant level today, and will keep an eye on it, marking the levels every few days.*shrug*

[pissedoffgokart]

If it helps I am having a similar problem. About every 3K miles I am starting to have to top it off. I also have a slight antifreeze type oder occasionally. I never have noticed whether or not the heat has been on or not, I do know that the thermo is set to warm though, but the fan is not on. Of course I need to have a flush and fill, which I am going in for today, and I'm hoping it ceases then. The other thing I am just found out is that Jiffy Lube (have no way to change it myself unfortunately) have been topping it off with DEX, not the standard stuff the manual calls for. I have no idea the effect mixing those two could have but I have heard bad things about DEX and gaskets. Also because of this fact I have no idea as to the color consistancey of my oil.Keep us info'd about you t/sing, as I will look at some stuff this weekend.

[Mavrik]

according to the gm goodwrench coolant service course I took the other day, dex and the orange antifreeze we have in our Vibes can be mixed. its if you mix the green antifreeze and the dex that there is a problem.

[pissedoffgokart]

From various resources on the web they say other than phosphate levels and color, there is virtually no difference between the green stuff and any other non DEX. No offense MAV but I do not trust anything GM says, I called to schedule a 36000 checkup and they said the Vibe uses DEX because it is ping and that they never heard of any other coolant that color. I am just pissy I guess because I HATE knowing more about a GM product than the SERVICE PEOPLE!!! So far I am batting a thousand on this, dealers in Cali, New Mexico, AZ, and now Colorado. Same experiences. Just annoying thats all.... Vent Completed.

[Mavrik]

no offense taken, I just guess the dealers you delt with are a bunch of a-- clowns...

[ColonelPanic]

Your problem does seem similar to mine, especially since you're smelling it.... Hopefully we can find a fix for this! I've marked the jug twice so far, still losing (but not much.) About every 2 days or so, once the car has been driven for ~30 minutes at the least, I'm marking it to see how much I lose.I carry a jug of Toyota red coolant in the car like I had put in when it was flushed, in the chance that I need to bring it into the dealer and have them work on it again, so that there are no mistakes. Hate to hear you're having problems with the various dealers... Tis hard to find one that is competent sometimes.

[pissedoffgokart]

Sorry I'm hijacking this thread but I must vent again. I just got back from taking the VIbe to SUSS PONTIAC in Aurora, Co for the flush and fill. It started out bad to begin with, their board said 89.95 for a fluch nd fill on coolant (DEX prices slightly higher). I explained to him that it isn't DEX but the Red Toyota long life stuff, he confirmed, and wrote it up. Told me $130. I asked why it was almost double the boards price and he said because the "special Toyota stuff costs 19.95 a GALLON, which is more than the DEX." I said whatever because it needs to be done, I have no means of doing it my damned self, and everywhere else in town charges that. 1hour labor $85 (BS, it takes 1/2 hour tops) and $45 for coolant. I felt violated. 2.5 hours later I come back (he told me 1.5 hours tops and I was the 3rd in line for the morning) and he says about another 15 minutes. 30 minutes lter he comes out and says he has some bad news, with everything else they have going on today and the "crazy" coolant issues they haven't even started it. He says the Vibe manual calls for plain old green stuff, a TSB states the Toyota stuff, and another TSB says use DEX. "So you can see the tech's confusion, do you want us to call tech support in order to find out the proper coolant?" Why did they even need to ask me that? Shouldn't that be a given if they have conflicting information?? Why ASK ME what they should do???!!!! And then after 3 FREAKIN' HOURS??!! I left, drove next door to hte Toyota dealership and agreed with the tech there that it is frightening as hell that they are selling and working on these cars.Needless to say, never going there again and will definately be writing a HUGE nasty to both the dealership and Pontiac!!! Again, sorry for the hijack....

[ColonelPanic]

Hate to hear about your bad experience! Did you mention the problem to the Toyota guy, and did he have any input on what it could be?Sadly, $19.95 for the coolant isn't that far off, I paid $16.something a gallon at the Toyota place. Bought two gallons, only took one gallon for the flush/fill.Hang in there, keep trying other dealerships, that's what I had to do... There has to be one that's decent for you in your area somewhere. I know how frustrating it can be!

[thorntcl]

Hey Colonel,I'm having the same problem with my vibe in that I am smelling coolant and have lost about 1/4 of the reservoir. I'm scheduled to bring in for the first oil change (have ~3000 miles) so I hope they can find the problem.No idea if it is related, but I am only getting around 30 mpg city/ hwy instead of 40... How is your gas mileage?So it sounds like the following could be the problem:Heater core leakhead gasket leak (nothing in the oil so hope it is not that)Fins blocking rad lines.Bad thermostatBad rad any other ideas?

[ColonelPanic]

Sounds like there are three of us now with the mystery loss of coolant! Hopefully they're able to figure yours out, thorntcl.I can't say I've noticed any mileage issues, it consistently gets around 30 for my average driving. Highest I've seen in a while was 35 MPG on the last tank. Not bad for an automatic... If there isn't another problem, I'd say you should see some improvements in your economy once you get a few more km's on it. Mine wasn't that great when new, mid to upper 20 MPG's for the normal drive. Slowly improved over time.Good luck getting the coolant issue resolved... Let me know what they find out, could be very useful for my situation as well.

[Mavrik]

I'm remembering a conversation early on for the Vibe meet in MI this past summer in regards to last year's MI meet where someone said they were bringing a few extra jugs of coolant to share around with everyone who drove because last year ppl realised they were low... not everyone but a few... and no leaks were ever found....guess this is where the Outer Limits music chimes in lol.

[thorntcl]

Ok thanks Colonel and Mavrik (always good to hear from a mechanic who plays all day with these things),Likely dropping the car off on Thursday to see what happens...Where is the needle usually for the coolant gauge. Do you guys have a pic of where it should be as I think mine just rose a bit when I started to smell the coolant? It is one notch below the halfway mark.Well I was just guessing at a correlation between the coolant and the gas mileage as I was thinking if it was a head gasket leak then could explain my lousy gas mileage.Actually I'm thinking in Canadian gas mileage which is supposed to be 7.7 L/100 km city 6.0 L/100 km hwy according to GMCanada site. (www.gmcanada.com)Which converts to 30.5 to 39 US mpg or 36 city to 47 Imperial (CDN) mpg.To convert x L/100 km to y MPG, perform: * 235.2146 ÷ x L/100km = y MPG (US liquid gallon), or * 282.481 ÷ x L/100km = y MPG (Imperial gallon)I am not getting over 30 CDN mpg where I should be getting at least 36 as I do a mix of city and hwy driving.

[thorntcl]

As you say Colonel once I drive it more I'll likely get better gas mileage, but I hope the wait isn't too long.

[ColonelPanic]

Quote, originally posted by thorntcl »Where is the needle usually for the coolant gauge. Do you guys have a pic of where it should be as I think mine just rose a bit when I started to smell the coolant? It is one notch below the halfway mark.Here's where the temperature gauge normally stays, once the engine has warmed up on my car...

Attached files

[Mavrik]

HAHA you taking a pic of my dash? currently I'm at 1/4 tank full and thats usually where my temp reads as well. Not quite half way on the gauge.

[pissedoffgokart]

Mine rarely deviates from that spot. Only if sitting in traffic for a while. On a positive note, I haven't smelled coolant since the change. I will wait a few hundred miles before checking the level again. Mine only lost the difference between warm fill and cold fill in 3K, so it may have just boiled off since we do not seem to have a sealed/pressurized system.

[ColonelPanic]

Sure did man... Put some gas in that thing!

[joatmon]

sorry for the digression about mpg in a coolant loss thread.Quote, originally posted by thorntcl »Actually I'm thinking in Canadian gas mileage which is supposed to be 7.7 L/100 km city 6.0 L/100 km hwy according to GMCanada site. (www.gmcanada.com)Which converts to 30.5 to 39 US mpg or 36 city to 47 Imperial (CDN) mpg.To convert x L/100 km to y MPG, perform: * 235.2146 ÷ x L/100km = y MPG (US liquid gallon), or * 282.481 ÷ x L/100km = y MPG (Imperial gallon)when I look at gmcanada vibe specs at http://gmcanada.com/english/ve...tions, it looks like they spec the base automatic vibe in miles per imperial gallon 34 city 45 highway, in L/100km 8.2 city 6.3 highway6.3 L/100km converts to 37.3 miles per US gallon, 45 mpig = 37.4 miles per US gallon.at the US Pontiac web site, ( http://www.pontiac.com/specs/s...=vibe ) the base automatic vibe is rated at 29 city / 34 highway.I think the GMCanada numbers are wrong, but if Canadian Vibes really do get an extra 3 mpg, then I want to know what the difference is so I can mod my vibe to get the extra 3 mpg.

[thorntcl]

Different lead foot for the US gov't guys vs the Canadian gov't guys getting the gas figures??Not really sure but there are likely some different factors that each fuel testing body does. Only real way to tell is to get the specs on how they do their testing. Some dyno all their numbers while others get onto a controlled circuit while others do both and adjust the numbers due to altitude and temperatures. All I know is I'm not getting anywhere near those numbers Mine is a base vibe automatic...I've also attached my coolant gauge (Canadian gauge so looks a little different, but seems the same level as ColonelP...I've never heard the coolant gauge go below the safe level unless the thermostat is blown and all the coolant is getting by so no pressure is building up in the system, but then Mavrik would proabably tell you more on that part.

Attached files

[thorntcl]

Well back from the dealer today.They say there are no problems with my car, but seems they just blew me off on my issues. Coolant - normal steam burning off during normal operation of the rad (yeah right, then why did I smell coolant burning off?)The gas mileage was another joke. If I drive more than 80 km/hr or 50 mph then my gas mileage goes down exponentially (~40% if I drive at 65 mph). Ok Sherlock then explain why a Kia Magentis rental I had for a week went farther with a larger engine (same size gas tank) while I was going ~65-70 mph....I changed the oil so maybe the gas mileage will improve. They said unless the engine light comes on they will not be able to check anything and all should be ok...I just want to know if I will ever see better gas mileage on a base Vibe as that is one of the main reasons for buying it. I got better gas mileage driving my '96 Pathfinder as well... I know I'm expecting a lot for a car that I only have 3000 miles on, but geesh I could have stuck with my Pathfinder as it was 4 wd...Suffice as to say I'll only get them to fix things if it breaks down on the side of the road.

[ColonelPanic]

Hate to hear your bad luck! The dreaded "this is normal" diagnosis. Been there. I can't simply dismiss this issue as being "normal" at the present. True, you could lose coolant over time, but I sure haven't owned a car that lost coolant and didn't have a problem somewhere. Now, that's not to say it is impossible to lose coolant with a perfectly functioning engine and coolant system. I'm sure that happens, and I am no mechanic by any stretch of the imagination - but logic dictates all of us here would easily know if this was normal or not and it would be discussed heavily. With the Malibu I had prior to this, just about every problem that plagued that car was something that countless others have had problems with as well. It was quite easy to determine what was normal, what was a defect, and what fix (if any) was available. With the number of 1ZZ-equipped cars on the road, I can't see this as being normal. We would be able to find so many threads yacking about the issue, maybe as many as the infamous Toyota engine sludge syndrome I've read so much about in my travels. And if this is normal, and we can't find any information pointing to that, then that would mean we would have hundreds of thousands of owners completely neglecting their cars... Never noticing it - not bothering to check the coolant, or not bothering to care. Since I highly doubt that's the case, I'm much more inclined to believe that this affects only a few vehicles. I work in IT, so every day I experience customers with legitimate problems that I just can't duplicate no matter how I try, let alone try to find a fix. So, I give my dealer credit where credit is due, since I know how difficult it can be to track down something such as this. But I don't like situations like yours, where it sounds like they didn't bother to dig too deep...I'll just keep driving it and monitor the level closely. It continues to drop, but it isn't anything alarming. Historically, and at the present, the coolant hasn't been dangerously low. My main concern is getting this resolved before it turns into something major. Which, if it does, bring it on! GM's going to have to pick up the tab, not me. (well technically I'm paying for it, but it's the principle behind it.) lolKnowing my luck, the second my extended warranty expires, the engine is going to trash itself..

[BHaebe]

Colonel PanicYour problem sounds exactly like ours on our 03 Vibe AWD. I had posted a ? over a year ago, here, with no sucess from the answers provided.FINALLY, a week ago, I noticed the seam on the coolant overflow/expansion tank had dried coolant residue on it. The steam was coming out of that seam when the car was hot but apparently not all of the time.The tank and radiator shroud (one piece) where just replaced under warranty on 10/11/04.NO more hot antifreeze smell when standing near the car, or in the garage.Pass it on to your Service ManagerBruce

[JohnC]

Quote, originally posted by BHaebe »Colonel PanicYour problem sounds exactly like ours on our 03 Vibe AWD. I had posted a ? over a year ago, here, with no sucess from the answers provided.FINALLY, a week ago, I noticed the seam on the coolant overflow/expansion tank had dried coolant residue on it. The steam was coming out of that seam when the car was hot but apparently not all of the time.The tank and radiator shroud (one piece) where just replaced under warranty on 10/11/04.NO more hot antifreeze smell when standing near the car, or in the garage.Pass it on to your Service ManagerBruceGood info, as I also have this problem and have not been able to id the source of the leak. Guess it could be verified by holding an inspection mirror around the suspected leaking seam, if it is leaking it will fog the mirror. I have 28k miles and have refilled the coolant resevoir 3 times now (small leak), my coolant concentration has not changed much so I figured it was vapor that I was loosing.

[ColonelPanic]

Very informative! I'll definitely have to look into this possibility... I remember seeing some orange crusty stuff at the top of the jug near the filler opening, but that was way at the beginning when I first noticed the problem. After that, I haven't noticed anything further, so thought nothing of it... Hmm! Do you have the part number for the fan shroud/reservior assembly? That would be good to put over on our parts list.

[thorntcl]

That's great Bruce..Congrats on finding your issue. It will likely help many others out on the mysterious leak...As Colonel Panic says see if you can enter the part number of the shroud and reservoir.I just went out to check my car and could not find any leaks and I have not seen the coolant drop so hopefully my problem has disappeared for now.