calling all cold weather drivers!!

[pmh013]

quote:Good to hear!!! It's nice when they really admit there's a problem!Yes, well, they're now retracting that statement. Just got a call from the service mgr -- Car is operating as designed. It's weird, but that's the way it's supposed to be.I've had it with Pontiac. I want them to take the car back, clear off my GMAC account, and compensate me for my troubles. I'll be taking that money and buying a new VW diesel. I won't have the AWD, but I can live with that as long as the damn car works.NOT IMPRESSED GM!! NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL!!!

[red]

bulls**t !! bulls**t!! bulls**t!!! i wish i could help you with this issue...all they have to do is contact the dealers in the northern states, like mine for instance...let me know if i can get some answers for you hear or try to get the techs to talk to your dealer techs or something....this is so bulls**t!! if you get that diesel vw i hope you go back there to that gm dealer/reps and and tell them to stick your vw emblem where the sun doesnt shine!!

[red]

hey..take your car to an independent transmission service center and have your tranny pressure tested, especially the torque converter...if it comes back ok, fine its not that, however it does sound like a tranny issue not electrical...take it to a toyota dealer and have them check it out or a reputable foreign car repair shop...it cost some $$ but if you find something you can go after them on it...keep all your paperwork to try to get back the cost if something is found wrong (which i think they will find)

[pmh013]

Thanks, Red. I gave my DSM the info you gave me a while back regarding your dealer & their thoughts on this problem. She never did say if she actually contacted them (I'm guessing no).Right now, I'm in a holding pattern, waiting to hear back from the DSM with respect to what exactly the plan is. But from where I stand right now, GM has lost a customer -- for life. And, you better believe that I'm gonna tell anybody who'll listen my opinions on GM customer service (and it's not flattering). However, the service manager did say he was going to talk to the Toyota service manager ... maybe they'll come up with something. In the mean time, I'm specing my new Jetta. Or maybe I'll get a Golf. Hell, I'd even take back my old VW Rabbit, even with all its mechanical woes ... now that I'm a grown up I can afford to fix it.But yes, GM can bite me.

[pmh013]

I have talked with the local Toyota service manager. He says the car is not designed this way (duh!). Sounds like he is going to work with the Pontiac dealer to figure this out. In the mean time, I would like to get this "it's designed that way" in writing from GM, just in case.

[Lee]

All I can say-is go get em! I have been waiting for a response from the DSM here since December!! They haven't even bothered to call back (they are waiting to hear from engineers in California)-my car revs very high and does not slow even after idling for 8 to 10 minutes-over 2000 rpms. If I put in gear (an automatic), the car will drive by itself and accelerate up to about 30 kmh for literally blocks-and guess what? I am told "that is the way the car is designed to operate".Needless to say-I ride the brakes a lot! And don't let anyone else drive it either

[pmh013]

Holy crap, that sucks a lot. You need to get in touch with some of my people, for sure!!

[pmh013]

Update: After conversing with the folks at Toyota, the service people are now going to test/replace the catalytic converter. The Toyota dealer had 2 Matrixes come in with this exact problem.Hmm, didn't I suggest talking to Toyota a long time ago??

[pmh013]

UPDATE: Car is going back in on Tuesday. Yet another engineer is coming to take it for a test drive, and maybe the gasket for the catalytic converter will have arrived by then, so they can actually test the thing. More news next week!

[pmh013]

quote: Hmm, interesting. Interesting, indeed. Quite an elaborate system of one one component affecting another affecting another. I really wish that the same pool of mechanics worked on both the Vibe and the Matrix, because if the cat is in fact the problem, it would have been diagnosed months ago, saving me much stress. Toyota knew this problem existed. GM was totally out of the loop.

[pmh013]

Well, I got the car back on Friday. Took it for a couple of highway drives, and I think it's much better than previous. We'll know on Monday when I take it out for my regular commute.The engineer came & performed tests on the exhaust system. Came out with a blocked catalytic converter. Why this did not trigger a CEL or any other codes is a mystery. What caused the blockage is also a mystery. Engineering has taken the faulty CC back for further study.Now, I can actually get the car up to 140 km/h (80 MPH) with little effort. Before, I needed to be going downhill with the wind.Finally , but I am still highly annoyed that this problem took so long to get fixed.

[935684]

Glad to hear that it may be solved. Keep your fingers crossed.The Mounties let you drive in SK at 140 klicks???? Here, I'd get nailed at 125.

[pmh013]

quote:The Mounties let you drive in SK at 140 klicks???? Here, I'd get nailed at 125.Not normally. I just did it for a short stretch, all in the sake of science . I've driven past them at 110 and they never even blinked. I usually drive somewhere between 107 & 110; 113 if I'm running late.I have noticed that most vehicles with MB plates fly by me. In an hour drive I was passed by at least 7 today. They must be in a rush to get home

[pmh013]

I had the car in yesterday for my 50000 km oil change. While it was up on the hoist I had a look. There's no new exhaust system parts that I can see.So, can you replace only the guts of a catalytic converter? I thought you had to do the whole thing?Any thoughts?

[pmh013]

I talked to a 3rd Pontiac dealer, they weren't 100% sure, but seemed to think you needed to replace the whole thing. An independent garage seemed to think you needed to replace the whole thing.The dealer that did it says you only need to replace the guts.The lady at GM's executive review team seemed to think I should see shiny new metal, but is going to check it out to make sure. She said she saw my plugged catalytic converter yesterday, so that's why she figured I should have a shiny new one.???????Sombody's not telling the truth, or doesn't know what they're talking about.

[SublimeVibe]

I was reading your posts and you said you had trouble starting that it would take a few turn overs before it started ,mine is doing the same thing when I start my 89 GMC pickup it usually lights right up and at -35 it only takes a couple of revs to kick in I use syn oil in both vehs. so if it was your batt how did you get them to change it for free.

[pmh013]

I haven't had "trouble" starting it, but I have noticed that in the cold the starter has to turn over more times.Salsa! got his battery replaced (& maybe a few others), but it took a lot of phone calls and persistence on their part. Send him an IM or look for a thread in this forum about batteries.

[MadBill]

Ask your dealer to show you the part number and description of the replacement converter brick in the parts list and then inquire as to how they get it into the can through the pipe! Maybe it's like building a ship in a bottle, or perhaps you soak it in vinegar until it softens up, then poke it in with a broomstick...

[pmh013]

ha!!! That's exactly what I asked the lady at Exec. Review... if both ends are small and the contents are big, how do you get the contents out? Break it up into little bits?I got a drawing faxed to me by the 3rd dealer, but of course it has no part #'s on it.According to my "invoice" they replaced this stuff:Manifold 036010Gasket 032700Cover 040100I'll scan that drawing & post it in a few minutes.

[pmh013]

Here's the drawing. It didn't scan as well as I'd hoped.In the top black band, it reads "GM Canada - [2003 Pontiac Vibe]"In the bottom black band there's something too, but I can't make out what it says in the fax.

Attached files

[pmh013]

But I've been told several times that the catalytic converter was blocked, and the blockage was caused by fuel additives (NMT?) found only in Canada. This is mentioned in the owner's manual p6.5. I think I'll go out to the parking lot & read it.OK, got the manual:Some gasolines that are not reformulated for low emissions may contain an octane-enhancing additive called methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricorbonyl (MMT); ask the attendant where you buy gasonline whether the fuel contains MMT. General Motors does not recommend the use of such gasolines. Fuels containing MMT can reduce the life of spark plugs and the performance of the emission control system may be affected. The malfunction indicator lamp may turn on. If this occurs, return to your authorized GM dealer for service.

[MadBill]

Here's a thought: Which converter did you look at?: There are TWO on the Vibe. The first one is about an inch from the exhaust manifold; perhaps that's the one they replaced. It might even have a big enough inlet opening at the manifold flange to drop in a new brick.

[pmh013]

I think I see what you're talking about on the file I posted -- right below SL & SN. 4 is what I was told is the CC.Anyway, they're working on it. Maybe I'll still take some pics of the car while it's up on the hoist & post them for you guys to scrutinize!

[pmh013]

Update:Finally learned what was actually replaced and why. I had to get my mechanic to point it out to me because I didn't know where I was looking. I've got pictures & I'll post them when I get home.Anyway, the "official" cause of my exhaust system problems is MMT. I found a really condensed version of some of the facts here http://users.imag.net/~lon.trea/TREATalk/Article04.htm .The bottom line, I think, is this:I talked to the GM of my local gas station. He talked to somebody at the refinery. This refinery supplies 90% of the gas for ALL the gas stations in SK, regardless of brand. The refinery rep said, "There is NO gas in Canada that is MMT-free."I'll bet there's gonna be a bunch of us with fouled catalytic converters.

[MadBill]

Tech Factoid:MMT* is used to get acceptable knock performance from cheaper low Octane base gasoline. The US banned it for health reasons some years ago, but I believe the issue is still ricocheting around the courts. The major automobile manufacturers have spent mega millions doing lab work and running high mileage tests which all confirmed its negative impact on emissions and component durability. (e.g. spark plugs, converters, etc.) Several years ago they convinced the Canadian Federal government and a somewhat lame law was passed banning inter-provincial transportation of MMT, which would have stopped its use, as it is not manufactured in Canada. The manufacturer, Ethyl Corporation (the same folks that brought us that loved-by-racers, hated-by-health care-professionals additive, tetra ethyl lead) sued, and the feds immediately rolled over, paying court costs and $13 Mil in damages and leaving us with with high warranty costs and reduced parts durability. (BTW, MMT is one of the most common ingredients in octane boosters, and it does work well for the purpose!)*Oh yeah: If anyone really cares, it stands for Monomethlydiethyl Manganese Tricarbonyl! (But don't hold me exactly to the spelling; strangely my spellchecker didn't recognise it...

[yooper_bob]

Isn't that MMT stuff what has been polluting the water table in some towns out west from leaking fuel tanks?Would be interesting to see if the same fuel usage warning is in the Toyota owners manuals.BobMono Shadow GT

[pmh013]

There has been much debate on whether MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl according to your owner's manual) actually causes problems with the emissions systems. If you are in the petroleum industry, you say it is fine. If you are in the auto industry, you say it is awful. If you are in government, you flip-flop. This article http://www.nrtee-trnee.ca/eng/programs/ ... /MMT_e.htm has a really good timeline when it comes to legislation being introduced & scrapped several times over.From what I've learned about it, the refinery that SK gas comes from has an average 86.5 octane before adding MMT, so the quantities they are adding are quite low. Other refineries may be adding more. To my knowledge, no Canadian refinery omits MMT from their gasoline. So, the auto industry can say all they want not to put MMT gas in your car, but if such a product is simply not available, then either change the design, open your own MMT-free gas station, or don't sell cars with emissions systems that require MMT-free gas (i.e. don't sell the Vibe in Canada).PS: I've got those pictures, but didn't get time this weekend. If you ever buy a house, make sure the yard is a big concrete pad ... grass & trees & gardens are just a lot of work.

[pmh013]

Here's the pictures. Ignore the trouble-light at the top of the photos.You'll see that behind the engine (closer to the firewall), there is a shiny cover (which was replaced), which conceals the heads (?), and the manifold which was replaced. So, of course you can't see this stuff from underneath.OK, so why did this part get coated in MMT-gunk???

Attached files

[NovaResource]

All I see is the exhaust manifold heat shield and the oxygen sensor in the exhaust manifold.

[pmh013]

Right, my understanding is that they replaced the heat shield, the gasket and the manifold. So, why would these components need to be replaced?

[NovaResource]

I don't know. Unless they were damaged while replacing the converter.

[pmh013]

The catalytic converter was never replaced, just the manifold, gasket & cover (why I was repeatedly told that the CC was replaced is beyond my comprehension -- maybe it was just easier for GM to explain it that way).I'm just trying to understand how and why the manifold would need to be replaced due to restriction. Is it kind of like your arteries & cholesterol, where it just builds up along the walls until you just can't pass stuff through that really small opening? Or is there some sort of filter in the manifold that got clogged?

[MadBill]

Quote> Isn't that MMT stuff what has been polluting the water table in some towns out west from leaking fuel tanks? No, that's MTBE, Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether, an alcohol-like octane booster. (Aren't there any chemicals named something simple like "Smith' or some such?)The stuff deposits on everything from the combustion chamber on, just like carbon, only more so and it doesn't seem to burn off. It is what causes that dark rusty brown color you see on used spark plugs or on the pistons and head if you have it off.