2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

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350kVibe
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:01 am
Location: Eastern North Dakota

2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by 350kVibe »

2009 Vibe Gt, 2wd
I'm positive there was a metal flap at the entrance to the tank.. the one on a spring that is pushed aside when you insert a fill-up nozzle, but a few posts here about older versions say that there isn't such a flap as it would be redundant to the fuel check valve... so my query might be buggered on the off. Anywho, here's the problem...

1) Check engine light ON - emission system code P0441
-Replaced gas cap, just in case, made no difference but I notice the absence of fuel filler flap... Seems related.
2) Sporadic loss of power that felt a bit like transmission slippage (it's not) - rpms take a dive whenever it happens.
3) Engine actually died while driving, mid u-turn.
-Restarted without issue.

Some auto part salesman and internet mechanics seem to think that missing this flap isn't a big deal, there's no way for it to block the system even if it somehow maneuvered all the way into the gas tank... But one 10 year old post stated that the broken flap could interfere with the fuel check valve, causing an emissions code and the same sort of driveability issues I'm having. Though I've found no other claims to back this up, it would be a big coincidence if that flap going AWOL didn't cause the evident fuel delivery issues.

So now, without even looking at the car and only listening -skeptically- to the “flap missing” part of my dilemma, the mechanics I’ve seen for it say the only fix is to replace everything leading to the tank. I’m not very knowledgeable when it comes to the fill-up system, but that seems like an expensive walk down a long cash-paved road to replace that little bit of metal, especially since I haven't gotten a straight answer from anyone on whether or not this would solve the problems. Any recommendations?
Last edited by 350kVibe on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2009 Vibe GT
Caretaker

Re: 2009 Fuel Filler Flap

Post by Caretaker »

I don't think I have seen a fuel neck flapper in generations. Our second generation Vibe definitely does NOT have one.

As is the case with all these small, reliable Japanese engines, is to start with the simple and work towards the difficult. The very first thing you should ask is when and whether you have replaced all your ignition coils with new Denso or Hitachi ones and whether you have done the same with the spark plugs? These engines, especially Honda ones, are very finicky about non OEM products being introduced into the engine. If they have never been replaced, start there. It needs to be done anyway, is a "cheap" fix, and solves many problems that throw codes.
350kVibe
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:01 am
Location: Eastern North Dakota

Re: 2009 Fuel Filler Flap

Post by 350kVibe »

Thanks for the input and direction...
Plus and wires were done 2 months ago after getting some misfire codes, they were indeed overdue. XD
So, uhh... What's next?
2009 Vibe GT
Caretaker

Re: 2009 Fuel Filler Flap

Post by Caretaker »

Sorry to be nit picky, but you replaced the ignition coils and spark plugs with what brand? As sad as it sounds, putting in off brand stuff just ensures the problem persists or returns in short order. If you put in the right stuff, I'll turn the thread over to the mechanics on this board. To me it also sounds like a catalytic converter issue, but again, I wouldn't dive into the guessing game until the two biggies: plugs and coils are done and out of the way.
350kVibe
Posts: 32
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Location: Eastern North Dakota

Re: 2009 Fuel Filler Flap

Post by 350kVibe »

I don't know what brand, but I had it done by a highly recommended mechanic that has done a lot of service for me in the past. I'm sure he knew what he was doing, and they always use OEM parts in their shop. The problem that sent me to get new plugs has not returned. What brings me here is an all new kind of monster. :evil: Heh.
Actually, come to think of it... I say "all new", but when I had trouble with my transmission speed sensor last year, it threw the same emission code a couple times then as well, but no related performance issues. It wasn't exactly a priority so I ignored it and it went away-cheapest fix, however temporary, I've ever had the pleasure of doing myself. XD
I'll just add now that it seems highly unlikely to be a bad catalytic converter, a problem I came across with my first Pontiac. Currently, I only have the one code that I mentioned - Evap Emissions System P0441 - which on it's own suggests something related to the fuel system. Also, when the car 'misbehaves' it's almost exclusively during the acts of speeding up or slowing down.
Overall it doesn't 'feel' like a bad CAT, especially without any directly related codes. I still drive on the highway every day for work and the ride stays pretty steady with the cruise on, if that means anything. I'm unfamiliar with the fuel system and unaware of which valves and sensors are involved from tank door to cylinders and I'd rather not spend$150 on a manual that may or may not have the answers I need... so I only have theories, like maybe a vacuum leak or something in the tank.. and I'd be extremely grateful for advice from a mechanic that really knows these cars, if possible.
Thank you again for your response!
2009 Vibe GT
350kVibe
Posts: 32
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Re: 2009 Fuel Filler Flap

Post by 350kVibe »

Ignore what I said about it being steady on the highway. driveability seems to be worsening. It now bogs down after bumps, even little ones... Something must be loose, right? Just a guess - the temperature might be contributing to the increasing severity. I could be wrong, but it seems to be more dysfunctional the longer it's running and on hotter days - today it was nearly 90 here and not a single cloud for shade. Unfortunately, this car is all I have to depend on and having only recently gotten back to work, my options for repair or replacement are very limited.
2009 Vibe GT
zbyers
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Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by zbyers »

P0441 is usually the purge valve solenoid located on the charcoal canister under the car. Over the years, the spring that opens/closes that valve gets a little corroded going in one direction. I know on the first gens, you can simply switch the vac lines going to this solenoid, and work the spring the opposite direction for a quick cheap fix.
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350kVibe
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:01 am
Location: Eastern North Dakota

Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by 350kVibe »

zbyers wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:00 am P0441 is usually the purge valve solenoid located on the charcoal canister under the car. Over the years, the spring that opens/closes that valve gets a little corroded going in one direction. I know on the first gens, you can simply switch the vac lines going to this solenoid, and work the spring the opposite direction for a quick cheap fix.
Interesting, I'll check that out as soon as I get a chance. Thank you for the suggestion! Do you think this could be the reason for the performance issues or am I just lucky enough to need multiple fixes? The odometer is at 379k, so not much could surprise me, but short of transmission replacement I'm determined to do what is necessary to take this thing to 400k... Just got new tires. Lol
2009 Vibe GT
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joatmon
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Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by joatmon »

If the P0441 is a clue to the performance problem and not an unrelated issue, then I'd tend to think there may be a vacuum leak somewhere
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radioarno
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Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by radioarno »

350kvibe: did you ever reverse those lines and get the valve unstuck?
cq358
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Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by cq358 »

I got my P0441. Caused by gas tank neck where meet the filler cap gasket is getting rust/garnish build up. I spray carb cleaner at the rag(liberally), and using the soaked rag rub and clean the filler neck and gasket mating surface thoroughly until it looks like the factory grey colour. Clean the screw end of the gas cap as well as roll and clean the rubber gasket at the cap. Make sure everything is clean as it just came out from factory. Reset the code and wait for 3-4 days to make sure it get some millage and MIL light not turn on again. This tips was taught by a Toyota service foreman.
350kVibe
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:01 am
Location: Eastern North Dakota

Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by 350kVibe »

I replaced the canister instead of reversing the lines. It seemed to work, but the code came back after a few months.
I ignored it for quite a while but it's time to face it again.
Codes now read:
P0441
P0455
P0171

Everything suggestive of a severe vacuum leak that has thus far been elusive. So, I checked the EVAP canister I just replaced, and it may as well be hollow. The valve is stuck wide open.

I'm now on my way to get a replacement as it is still under warranty. I'll update after installation. I'm not sure what could've caused it to go bad so quickly or if it was faulty right out of the box, so I'll do my best to keep in touch if this isn't solved yet.

Side note: *The Vibe has officially passed 400k miles* :D
2009 Vibe GT
Vibe2azfe
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Re: 2009 Almost Stalling on road / Evap Purge Code P0441

Post by Vibe2azfe »

I own a second gen Gt and have run into all of these issues described. Here’s a list of parts I’ve replaced so far and what I plan to do: Purge canister Valve (twice), MAF sensor (twice), evap hoses and intake hoses, altornator, spark plugs, ignition coils, B1 S1 o2 sensor, fuel housing, fuel pump, fuel strainer and filter, cleaned air intake, cleaned throttle body, replaces charcoal canister and hoses.
Reading the posts prior I’ve realized I should go back and replace the purge canister valve once more with original GM equipment not aftermarket or duralast. If that does not work I am having my engine smoked and lines checked. Will keep you posted.

165k 2009 Vibe GT

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