GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

Disclaimer: The reason this is not in the Tennessee forum...because no one goes to the Tennessee forum. And I figured this could possibly be more of a regional-ish thing than a state thing.Anyway. My dad and I used to work at Bristol Dragway in Bristol, Tenn. (The drag strip adjacent to the NASCAR track.) Every year, they have some sort of event like this. The first year, there were specific events for Pontiacs, Buicks, and Olds, but they later got lumped into one weekend. However, those black Buick Grand Nationals just sort of dominate the show. Wouldn't it be cool for a big bunch of Vibes to give them a run for their money?We could have a rally, by all pitting together. (This shouldn't be hard, there's plenty of pit space there.) So, then other people or Vibe owners or whatever could come check everybody's car out all in one central location. Then, we could all race as well. The fun factor in the racing would not be gone after you lost a round, either, because then you could cheer on your fellow Vibe owners as they "take on the world." They just had the event for this year, but I just wanted to see what everyone would think about doing this next year, and actually organizing a get-together?

sounds fun, buy my awd isn't exaclty a speed demon

Nor is my base, but speed is not the objective in a bracket race. I actually plan to put something under the gas pedal to act as a throttle stop so it'll go even slower. I used to drag race as well, and I had far more luck with a slower, more consistent car than with a faster one.

the whole previous statement confuses me...

Sure we could get the Florida Matrix/Vibe Club to represent after we get everything together. I plan on having the S/C by then... unless of course this lady at Courtesy Pontiac can get that '03 GT a little lower! Giddy-up. Look forward to hearing more!

dear dear kari, please explain why you would want to go slower...

Regardless of what everyone's perceptions may be...speed is NOT everything in drag racing. Races like this are what's called bracket races, and they are done on a handicap basis. So, what you need to aim for is CONSISTENCY, not speed.Here is how a bracket race works. This is difficult to explain but I'm going to try and make it understandable.You will get about three time trials. It can be anywhere from 2-5, but is usually 3. These time trials are non-handicapped and they don't count toward anything. They are just for you to judge your time by and practice your reaction time (on the three/lights/etc.).After your time trials, you will then decide on a "dial in" for your car and write it on your window with glass chalk. That dial in is the time you think your car will run in the first round of eliminations. YOU CANNOT RUN FASTER THAN THE DIAL IN. If you do, you will be disqualified. This is called "breaking out." More on this later.The people in the tower input the dial-ins for both cars just before they run. The computer then uses the difference between those times to offset when the lights come down on the tree for each lane. A "perfect light" would be achieved by leaving the starting line beams at exactly the precise instant that your light turns green. Ideally, if both of you have a perfect reaction time and run "dead on" your dial-in with a 0 in the thousandths place, you will both reach the finish at EXACTLY the same time.So, the objective is to cut the best light possible (closest to .000 or .500, that just depends on the computer system in the tower) and run as close to your dial-in as you possibly can without going over. The person who comes closest to this should win the race. Pro Stock tends to be an anomaly in that "top end speed" can affect who wins, even if the loser had the better "total package" in the run.You don't want to leave before the light turns green (or you'll red light) or break out, or you'll be disqualified.For example, say we have Car A with a 9.70 dial-in and Car B with a 10.90 dial-in. Car B is slower. So Car B will get a head start of 1.20 seconds, the difference between the two times.In my past experience, it is ALWAYS better to be the one who gets the head start, and dial true to what you think you will run. Then you can just mash the pedal and ride. If you are the faster car, the "chaser," you run a higher risk of breaking out, especially if you dial soft (slower than you think you will run). It's complicated to be trying to break and estimate and watch and whatever else...much better to just push and ride.I have won many, many races with my throttle stop method...speed is not everything by any means.You can change your dial in after each round if you want, or if you think changing conditions (cooling down as the night goes on, rain etc.) will cause your car to run faster or slower. All of this really comes from experience.

excellent description...

Thanks, I'm glad it turned out understandable. I've been in and around drag racing for 10 years now and it's just second nature to me...makes it more difficult to explain it to someone who has no idea what I'm talking about.

I understand Kari. I've been drag racing for years. While I agree a slower car is usually more consistent I don't agree with leaving first as being an advantage. Just the opposite. The main reasons are that 1. if the slower car (who leaves first) red-lights, you will see it and have an automatic win as oong as you make sure you don't redlight and don't breakout. 2. you alway have the other car in view. When you're in front, you have to look over your shoulder to look for the other guy. What you want to do is stay just behind the slower car until the stripe and then just beat him. If you breakout, there is also a good chance the other car will breakout too as they will be trying hard to stay in front. In a double breakout, the car closer to the dial-in wins. Bracket racing is complicated but loads of fun.

sounds kind of like bowling w/handicap. that would be a lot of fun, even if you're car isn't all that fast, it's fun to hear it whine!

Exactly. Bracket racing allows anyone to race no matter how fast or slow your car is. Racing now becomes who is the better driver, not the fastest car.

IMHO, you shouldn't even be focused on whether or not your opponent red lights, no matter whether you start first or second. You should be focusing on YOUR OWN light, and if the other person red lights, then so be it, but that shouldn't stop you from making the best run possible.In my own personal experience, when I am chasing the car, I have more breakouts. When I am the one being chased, I don't even try to really "race" them. I race the track. That's more or less what bracket racing is really about. Race your car, race the track, race yourself. Best total package with no fouls wins.

quote:You should be focusing on YOUR OWN light,And that is true some of the time but when you're a 13 sec car racing a 16 sec car, you have plenty of time to glance over.

Just because you have plenty of time to look doesn't mean you should. I was always taught that you should focus solely on YOUR light, no matter how much time you have. It's a focus thing, for me. I don't worry about what light the other person cuts...I just focus on cutting my best possible light.

Yes, but you need to be aware of the other persons dial in. If you just pull up and start staring you might loose consentration before your side of the tree activates. Especially if there is a large gap in performance. Also, when running in an electronics class with a delay and crossover box and a full 5/10 tree, you sometimes leave on the other persons top light, not your last one.

quote:Just because you have plenty of time to look doesn't mean you should. I was always taught that you should focus solely on YOUR light, no matter how much time you have. It's a focus thing, for me. I don't worry about what light the other person cuts...I just focus on cutting my best possible light.That's what I was taught too, but it's never worked for me. I still wind up looking over to see what's up with the other person. Of course, I've not had the opportunity to run against anyone slower than me so it doesn't take much. Might have to take the Vibe out once just to see what it can do.

It's fine to look at the other person's dial-in on the scoreboard as you pull up to stage, to know when you should expect the tree for you, but I'm just saying you shouldn't be watching to guesstimate what light they cut...that's a major distraction. Basically, I don't see being able to see what kind of light the other person cut as a true necessary benefit. It could be nice, yes, but it's not something that I personally want to waste thought process on at the starting line...it's not crucial to me. If it is to you, then that's fine. Just IMHO, it doesn't matter. That's all I'm saying. I'm a true footbrake racer at heart. No electronics for me.Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to start an argument. So I'm guessing people WOULD be interested in a rally/race?

When you are the slower car, you only have to deal with 3 flashes of amber before launching but the faster car has 6 flashes. It's that added time and distraction that makes it harder to cut good lights. Many people dislike electronics saying it takes the driver out of the race but that's not true. The driver still has to react. The delay box just allows the driver to choose what light he wants to react to. A full tree give you 3 ambers so a footbrake driver reacts to the 3rd amber. However, some drivers wish to react to the first flash of amber they see (like a PRO tree) so they set the delay box to wait the length of time between the first flash of amber and their green. The driver is still involved because he physically releases the button, not the computer. The computer just waits a pre-determined amount of time before releasing the transbrake or linelock.I'm not trying to argue either but I'm just saying that there is alot more to bracket racing (at least for those who do it competitively) than you may be aware of.

quote:1. If a tree fell in the woods, would it make a sound.....Yes, it would.

I'm aware of the electronics issue, and I know some people like it, and they have very well-founded reasons why they do. It's just not for me. I wasn't talking about electronics racing...I was talking about footbrake, as I would assume no one is going to be putting a delay box in their Vibe, though I could be wrong. It looks as though there might be some "first timers" in the crowd, so from there I figured it was best to take it from the approach of footbrake racing, without the added confusion of delay boxes.I got my start with footbrake, because I raced a Jr. Dragster. I just am not a fan of delay boxes. Like I said earlier, it's just not for me. If it's for you, then great, more power to you.

quote:I am going to have to read up on this subject because I am so confused about itGood reading here:http://www.asmartin.com/b_et.htmhttp:// ... m/guide/Oh, and for the record, I don't use electronics either because I don't race competitively, but if I did, I would use all tools to make me a better driver. The box is not bad, it's just a tool. It's like saying calculators are bad and that we should do calculations on paper. Or that table saws are bad and we should use hand saws only.

yeah, or that we should have to make our cars move with our feet like fred flinstone did..ok, maybe not

And there are a lot of people out there who don't like electronics for racing. I'm not the only one, I promise. LOLThere's just something about having it all totally in your hands with no help. It's more challenging, I think. There are a lot of people who share this view.Yes, electronics in a drag car are tools, but I don't think it's fair to analogize it to a calculator or a power tool. There are a lot of people out there who PREFER to do math on paper or prefer to use manual tools, just like there are people who prefer footbrake to electronics racing.Just because a tool is available does not mean everyone has to like it, or use it.

You can't apply one rule to every single situation in the world, either. Some things require tools. Leaving the starting line in drag racing is not one of them.

Yes, but if you were in a math competition you would rather use a calculator. Remember, we're talking about competition here. The object of a competition is to win. If you don't want to take advantage of legal tools to help you win that's fine. That's like running the 100-meter without running shoes.

quote:Some things require tools. Leaving the starting line in drag racing is not one of them.Required, no. However, it is a tools to help you cut a better light. Like I said above, you don't need running shoes to run in the 100-meter but having them would help.

And in a footbrake class, compete with electronics is illegal. They will have different classes at this event. Not everyone will be racing together. There will be a sportsman/footbrake class, which is where I plan to compete. There will also be a pro class, where you can either use electronics or choose not to. Some of the best drag racers in the world are footbrake racers.quote:So, you guess what times your car can run and you are estimated by the practice runs right? So then they put your car up against similar cars that run those times?Yes, the guessing part is correct. But they do not put you up against similar cars. You basically run whoever you're next to in the staging lanes at a big race like this. So if we all make sure to get in the even or odd lane when we go to the lanes...then we can all make sure we don't run each other, thus giving us better chances to move more people to the next round.

sure, i could catch a fish with my just my two hands, but f*ck it, i'm not a bear.

Okay. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about this race. There will be different classes. There will be a footbrake class in addition to at least one class, sometimes two, for people who use electronics. Using a delay box in footbrake is illegal. Just because you do not have or use electronics does not mean you can't win! In footbrake, you are only competing against other footbrakers. But there *are* footbrakers who will compete in the electronics classes and still race with only their foot. And some of them are bracket world champions too. They do quite well. So please, please, don't be discouraged from coming just because you don't have electronics or don't want to use them...we'll all just compete in footbrake together.

come on genvibe nowsmile on your brother everybody footbrake togethertry to race one another right now

I love bracket racing, but with my vibe's 6 speed it really takes mastery of it to be consistent enough.i love good old drag races...first one to the finish wins I go to englishtown sometimes on friday night street nights

that's cool. we have street fights on tuesdays and thursdays at bristol...anybody can do it. that's sort of the point i was trying to make, but it got sidetracked into a debate about the merits of footbrake vs. electronics.

All I know is this whole "bracket racing" thing sounds fun! Wish we had it around here...

Englishtown is in NJ...http://www.nhra.com/streetlegal/tracks.html

Ahhh...Well, I'd want some friends to do it with me, cause I don't do stuff alone.

If I lived up there I'd go with you. But, sadly, I don't. Are you the only GenViber around there too? Or maybe you could get someone from one of the other sites to go with you... It's really fun.

Yeah, there's a couple other guys around here, maybe I can arrange something...