'03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

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FlyHappy
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 pm

'03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by FlyHappy »

Hoping there's still some old timers around to help a 20 year Vibe guy. My sweet 03 that I bought new off the dealer lot has been trouble free for about 19 years; but Father Time catches up to us all.

About a month ago, my starter failed, and it wasn't too hard to diagnose. I bought a brand new, non-OEM starter (inexpensive, from eBay), struggled with a slightly factory cross threaded lower bolt, but got it in, and it was starting like a dream... literally better than it ever had.

Then, 3 days ago, away from home, it stopped working - being a stick, I was able to push start it, got home, sure enough in my driveway, after engine shut off, there's no more engagement of the starter motor. Jumper cables nor overnight trickle charging affects it - no starting.

Here's the really weird thing - if I use ACC or On, everything works - lights, blower, etc. If I turn to Start, I hear a single click (unsure if that's Relay or Solenoid), but that everything goes dead EVEN AFTER I release the key from Start to On. THere is NO power to anything, other than the door open red indicator. There remains NO POWER even if I pull the key out, back in to ACC, On or Start - totally dead.... for maybe 30 minutes or so? After that, I can power everything with ACC or On ; of course, if I turn to Start - one click, everything goes dead for another 30 minutes.

Battery is 18 months old, and appears strong.
Starter is 1 month old
No reason to believe alternator isn't charging, but I've not tested
All fuses in engine bay and driver side appear good
I've replaced the purple starter relay - no change

I am frustrated and a bit heart-broken as I'm starting to doubt my ability to keep this beauty going.

Does anyone have any ideas? the total loss of power after and Start attempts is non-sensical to me... I really thought the Starter relay would be the culprit, and yet not....
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joatmon
Posts: 10018
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:19 am
Location: SMC MD

Re: '03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by joatmon »

Some of the circuits are straight from the battery, such as the horn and emergency flashers. If those don't work when in the dead mode, then that eliminates a whole bunch of suspects.

First guess would be a bad battery, but at only 18 months old, seems less likely. After that, then I'd guess corrosion on the battery terminals. If those are clean, then maybe its a problem with the battery's ground.

So, I'd try to measure the battery voltage when accessories work and again when it's in dead mode. If the battery terminals are clean, maybe use one wire in the jumper cables to connect the battery negative terminal to the engine somewhere, which might not be enough to get it to start, but if its a battery ground problem, it should be enough to get accessories to work again when in dead mode.
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andrewclaus
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:38 pm
Location: Golden, CO

Re: '03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by andrewclaus »

I'll guess you have a low resistance short circuit in the new starter, pulling hundreds of amps. There is no fusible link to the starter, so nothing will blow. But you will kill the battery voltage. You're probably boiling something in the battery, and it has extremely low voltage, just a few volts or so until it can chemically or thermally recover. I've never witnessed this, and don't know if a lead acid battery can behave this way. It's only a guess.

Test for this by measuring battery terminal voltage before and after a start attempt, then every ten minutes afterwards. If that's what's happening, you'll need a new starter and a new battery.
FlyHappy
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 pm

Re: '03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by FlyHappy »

andrewclaus wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:29 am I'll guess you have a low resistance short circuit in the new starter, pulling hundreds of amps. There is no fusible link to the starter, so nothing will blow. But you will kill the battery voltage. You're probably boiling something in the battery, and it has extremely low voltage, just a few volts or so until it can chemically or thermally recover. I've never witnessed this, and don't know if a lead acid battery can behave this way. It's only a guess.

Test for this by measuring battery terminal voltage before and after a start attempt, then every ten minutes afterwards. If that's what's happening, you'll need a new starter and a new battery.
That's a hell of a theory.
But thanks for the creative thinking; I will check this out soon.
FlyHappy
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:57 pm

Re: '03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by FlyHappy »

joatmon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:18 am Some of the circuits are straight from the battery, such as the horn and emergency flashers. If those don't work when in the dead mode, then that eliminates a whole bunch of suspects.

First guess would be a bad battery, but at only 18 months old, seems less likely. After that, then I'd guess corrosion on the battery terminals. If those are clean, then maybe its a problem with the battery's ground.

So, I'd try to measure the battery voltage when accessories work and again when it's in dead mode. If the battery terminals are clean, maybe use one wire in the jumper cables to connect the battery negative terminal to the engine somewhere, which might not be enough to get it to start, but if its a battery ground problem, it should be enough to get accessories to work again when in dead mode.
Thanks for the input. The terminals are clean, they actually got replaced with the battery 18 months ago, but the other end(s)... who knows.
Good idea on using the a jumper, I'll need to try that tomorrow!
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: '03 GT - won't start & weird electric problem

Post by Bookworm »

I'll second (third) the battery suspicion. I had a 'good' battery that was in really hot weather for a bit. It then started doing something similar. Minor draw, no issue. Big draw.. bonk.
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