Perspective on oils - Feb, 2022

[Bookworm]

Having had a Vibe since 2003, and now a Matrix, I've used a lot of different types and brands of oils over the years (and even before that, with other vehicles).

1) Most of the oil specifications aren't really important. What's important is that if you're in a cold area, pay attention to the low number, and if you're in a hot area, pay attention to the high number. "5w-30" is the default on all of our 2003-2008 vehicles, and then jumps to 0-20 for the 2009 and up.
If you're in a very cold area, you might even end up with 5w-30. If you're in a very hot area, you might need 10w-40. I'm in Houston, where sub-freezing temperatures are VERY rare. I've been successfully running 10w-30 for the last two oil changes. No grumpy Vibe.

2) The oil change intervals are suggestions, and should have been called that in the user manuals. I've had trashed out oil at 3000 miles, and good oil at 7,000 miles - it all depended on the time of year and the driving type. Not to mention the location. If you're in a dusty environment, you're pretty guaranteed to want to change the oil "right on time". Meaning even if you're running synthetic, you might be changing oil at 4,000 miles, not 5-7. That's Houston at certain times of year, but it's West Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, and Southern California most of the year. j

3) Oil brands are pretty much the same. You can look at Project Farm on YouTube for some fun tests. In general, all of the oil brands he tests 'head to head' will work fine under normal conditions. Synthetic or Conventional. Additive packages seem to be about the only real difference. (Vice Grip Garage uses Rotella T-4 Diesel oil for most of his 'rustorations', because they're older cars with looser tolerances, and the oil has a lot of the various lubricants and wear inhibitors)

4) Conventional oil is getting harder to buy! Wal-Mart's SuperTech brand oils all seem to be 'synthetic blend' or 'full synthetic' for all of their weights and types, other than the "High Mileage" variant. I had to go Quaker State to get a straight conventional for my car, and even then, it was 10w-30. They have a 5w-30 "Advanced Durability", but that's $38 for five quarts. Valvoline has a conventional 5w-30.

5) Synthetic oil issues. Now, the various sites and the synthetic oil companies all claim that there's absolutely nothing that could cause a failure in an engine by switching to synthetic. I have a very hard time believing that, as my oil leak started within 1000 miles of changing to a synthetic. Is the oil responsible? I'm certain of it. Is it a fault? No. I'm pretty sure the synthetics simply have a higher proportion of the 'cleaning' chemicals, detergents and what-not, and they "cleaned" out a weak spot. My "new" Matrix, I've found out, has had synthetic in it in the past, so I don't believe I'll have the issue there. (Someone used two of the window decals as a wedge on the back door access panel for the license plate lights. One from Wal-Mart, one from another company. I wonder if Wal-Mart keeps records on the cars?)

6) Oil filters. There's been a lot of arguments about this _everywhere_. What's the worst, what's the best, etc. Olathe Toyota's Parts department did some comparisons, it looks like mostly for fun.

https://parts.olathetoyota.com/tacoma-o ... comparison
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/tundra-o ... comparison
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/blog/165 ... st-filters (this one actually has a paid comparison)

The general takeaway was that other than the Bosch (rust hidden in the filter), AC Delco (SuperTech, but made worse), and Fram's more expensive offerings, they'd all do the job for normal use. I just stuck a cheap filter on my Matrix, because I'm going to change the oil within 1500 miles or so, and certainly no later than 3000 miles, because I just bought the car, and there's no guarantee of how it was handled before I bought it. It definitely was overdue for an oil change. My next filter is going to be the F1 Toyota filter - I just picked up 3 at the local dealer for $12 plus tax - they had a coupon. The regular price was $5.81 plus tax, each.

They did recommend that if you didn't want to use the OEM, Wix or K&N are good - if you can get them on sale, cheaper than the OEM. (I do like K&N. I've used them before)

7) Oil flushes. I have mixed thoughts on these. If you've done good maintenance on your vehicle, I think they can help. Basically, they're kerosene. (In fact, I've used kerosene to flush an engine before. Drain the engine, put in 2-4 quarts of kerosene, turn the engine over for about 5-15 seconds, then drain the kerosene through a coffee filter back into a bottle, then pull the filter. You can get about 4 uses out of the same kerosene.) The purpose of any flush is to thin the oil enough that it flushes out anything stuck to the bottom of the oil pan, or jammed in the drain holes.

My _personal_ thoughts on them are that you shouldn't use them unless you're willing to let the engine drain longer than normal. You shouldn't use them for a fast 'drain, put in plug, remove filter, put in filter'. Rather, it should be a 'remove the cap, drain the oil, pull the filter, and let things drip for 15 minutes'. An alternate way to use a flush (or kerosene) is to drain the oil, then pour the flush straight into the top of the engine, and let it filter down and flush out anything left. Still, I'd leave everything open for a bit to try to let it vent. All of the various flushes say that they'll come out of the oil without doing any damage, and my experience is that it is true, but I'd still prefer to have as much out as possible _before_ closing the engine up.

8) "Motor Honey" and other various oil conditioners. These used to be useful, but I haven't had an engine since the late 80's that seemed to like the stuff. Basically, it's just to add viscosity back to the oil - modern oils don't break down as fast as they used to. Now they're only really useful for older (carburated) automobiles that really need a ring job. I'm not even sure I'd believe the various 'seal conditioners' out there, even if Scotty Kilmer has one he advocates. (and only one) I'd rather save up the money to replace/rebuild the engine, or the vehicle. Maybe put one in and run it for 15 minutes or so before changing the oil, but that's about it. Not worth putting a $10-15 bottle of something into the engine every oil change, especially if you're burning or dripping oil.

Anyone else have thoughts on these? Think I'm full of Texas Ranch Meadow Surprise?

[Mark]

I use 0w-30 Mobil-1 full synthetic in all three Vibes, and would use the same oil year round if I lived in the deep south or even Ecuador. My wife's Honda calls for 0w-20, and I use 5w-40 diesel motor oil in my truck, but only because 0w-40 diesel oil is hard to come by locally.

Not brand loyal really, but I can find Mobil-1 at Walmart pretty reliably. Mostly I've used Rotella T6 in my truck but the last OC a few weeks ago I used STP full syn 5w-40.

OCI for the 2012 Honda and the 2010 Dodge truck are based on the maintenance minders, and the Vibes are about 7,500-8,000 miles depending on weather and opportunity.

[Bookworm]

If it helps, Mazda lists 0w20 for my wife's Mazda5.

However, the instructions for _Mexico_ list 5w20.

We're in Houston, so we're a lot closer to Mexico than to Canada, where they specify 0w20.

[cigvibe]

I was using Mobil 1 on both of my cars (honda and nissan) when it was reasonable at $25 for the big jug. As I mentioned in another thread, without using a good filter it just didn't last. The costs were adding up so I had to look for an alternative.

I have since switched to better oil filters and Valvoline high mileage syn blend which seems to last longer before getting "dirty". Since both of my cars were over 150k, I figured the blend might sit well. I have to change my oil more than the average person, so at $18 a jug I do save a little bit. I can't go by miles on these cars, I just change it when it starts to get dirty which is well before 5000 miles.

For a low mile engine, I'd stick with synthetic OEM or Mobil 1.

[Mark]

You can't judge an oil's life or performance based simply on its color and the fact that you think it's dirty. Send a sample of your 5000 mile "dirty" oil in for an analysis and I think you'll be surprised at the results, you probably have about 10,000 more miles left on it. Blackstone's standard analysis is only $30.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-u ... -analysis/

[Mark]

If it helps, Mazda lists 0w20 for my wife's Mazda5.

However, the instructions for _Mexico_ list 5w20.

We're in Houston, so we're a lot closer to Mexico than to Canada, where they specify 0w20.

Like I said, I would continue to run 0w-xx year round no matter where I was. Alaska, Wyoming, Houston, Mexico, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Saudi Arabia. Doesn't matter.

[Bookworm]

When it's really hot, zero weight oils make less sense. Yes, there are very small channels for the drainage, plus tight tolerances, but the heat negates the absolute requirement. Zero weight oils make absolute sense in very cold climates.

In the hot climates, the latter number is more important. Thus my running 10w-30 vs 5w-30 has not harmed fuel economy, engine noise, or anything else in my Vibe. Would I run it if I lived in Ohio in the winter? No.

If you were right at the equator, for example, you could probably go to straight 30 weight oil. Here, in the summer, the nighttime temperature can be in the upper 80's - which is the 'fall' (and sometimes part of winter) daytime temperature.

[Mark]

The engine's normal operating temperature is 185ºF - 195ºF, and whether your oil is 0w-30 or 10w-30, it's still 30w at normal operating temperature. Whether the ambient air temperature is 0ºF or 100ºF isn't really relevant, because at that temp the engine is "cold" relative to normal operating temp. The only thing that matters at startup is oil flow, and no matter the temperature 0w is going to flow faster and easier than 5w or 10w.

The oil recommendation from my 2012 Honda CR-V is 0w-20 for all temperatures:

2012 Honda CR-V Oil.png (9.37 KiB) Viewed 838 times

Here's a snip from chapter 2 of Oil University at BITOG that explains it better:

Chapter Two - Oil Grades - Bob is the Oil Guy.png (34.67 KiB) Viewed 838 times

Oil University is an awesome resource that I think everyone should read. https://bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

[Bookworm]

I see you aimed for the subject, and shot the cat next door.

My point is that the weight you need is relevant to your starting temperature. You've even pointed that out yourself. You then went off on a tangent about 0 weight oils going to all sorts of low temperatures. You missed the point.

The point is that the initial flow viscosity _at startup_

Here's Motor State's chart for the oil - not for your Honda.

https://www.motorstate.com/oilviscosity-htm/ (This is a 'startup temperature range chart', I believe)

A "Zero Winter" oil has a protection zone from -40 to -10C! (that's what the W actually means. 0W(inter)-20 (summer) ) I don't know about you, but I'm certain it's never hit 14F in Houston more than a handful of times in the last 200 years.

The _key_ with multi-weight oils is that they're relatively the SAME viscosity across the entire degree range. That was the reason behind multi-weight oils in the first place - that it needs to maintain the protection level from the low end to the high end, and not change core viscosity (so you're not changing the oil depending on the temperature). So a 10w50 is 'thicker' at the highest end than a 10w30 - but near the limit of the 10w30, they're the same viscosity - once you pass that point, the 10w30 starts losing viscosity, or thinning out. A 0w20 is 'thinner' at the same operating temperature than a 0w30. A 10w30 and 10w50 are identical at the low end.

So, for my vehicle, in Houston, with a normal 'coldest weather' of the low 40's, could probably still get away with a straight 30 weight oil, especially in the summer. However, this is _not_ the norm for global weather. If I was going to drive to Michigan, I'd be changing the oil out.

The reason Honda (and others) are insisting on 0w oils is because the channels in the engine are so small, they need the oil to be as runny as possible at startup. Porsche was requiring that you -not- use 0w, because they didn't believe it would be viscous enough for the engine.

Again - the Mazda 5 we have, actually has a manufacturer's tolerance for 5w-20 listed _in the manual_. It just lists it under Mexico.

Note: the 2003-2008 Vibe/Matrix has different tolerances and oil specifications than the 2009+ Matrix/Vibe/Corolla. Even though I'm fiddling with the low end, I haven't touched the high end, because that's the intended operating temperature of the vehicle. Raising that is likely to kill your oil pump.