Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

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BrandonMassey
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:03 pm

Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by BrandonMassey »

So my base vibe is at 217,877 miles and it has had zero issues besides the starter went out like 2 years ago a little after I got it, every single winter here in Florida when it gets about 50 or lower when I start the car it idles rough until its completely warm, an engine light turned on the past 2 winters and this is the third winter its acting up but no engine light yet, the engine light was for a too lean air fuel mixture I believe, a possible cause that might of been my fault was around when I got the car I took the intake off to paint it and I didnt replace the gasket because my dad when I lived with them at the time got pissed and basically told me to throw it back on and see what happens just because I didn't already have a gasket, (he has anger issues) so being forced to I threw it back on, no issues to his let down, but I believe maybe it has something to do with the cold start issue, this morning it went down to 450rpms which wasn't fun to experience, just wanted to know if anyone has the same issue or a possible solution because I feel like it may hurt the engine and the engine is flawless and I do my maintenance on it and hope to see it go far, thanks in advance🙂
zbyers
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by zbyers »

If your lean code is P0171, it is definitely due to the intake manifold gasket not being replaced.

Replace it, and most if your rough idle issues should go away.
'74 Thing, '79 El Camino, '83 VW DoKa '91 Vanagon, '03 Base, 04 GT
'06 CRV, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '12 Highlander Limited, '17 Frontier CCLB

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BrandonMassey
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by BrandonMassey »

zbyers wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:10 am If your lean code is P0171, it is definitely due to the intake manifold gasket not being replaced.

Replace it, and most if your rough idle issues should go away.
Thank you, will replace that as soon as I can! (And the engine light turned on on the way back from work and its the code you just said, thank you for the help 🙂)
zbyers
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by zbyers »

No problem. Keep us posted on the fix!
'74 Thing, '79 El Camino, '83 VW DoKa '91 Vanagon, '03 Base, 04 GT
'06 CRV, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '12 Highlander Limited, '17 Frontier CCLB

Byerscrew Garage, GenVibe Facebook, How-To Index
Everything You Need To Know About the Pontiac Vibe
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

OK, now its my turn in the barrel. My car this FL cold morning shuttered to a start. I stupidly put in drive and drove with the car shuddering. That sent the dash board lights ablaze. I stopped after a block and turned the car off. I then turned it on and it started fine and ran smoothly down to my mechanic. The VSC, ESC and check engine lights are all on, with the VSC flashing. My mechanic said the code stated a problem with cylinder #2. He said he put two high end code readers on the car and could not get the lights to turn off. I just drove it home; it seemed smooth, but perhaps a wee bit sluggish. I put in Denso plugs and ignition coils at 60,000. I'm now at 143,000. My plan is to drive it for a couple of days to see if the lights will cycle off. I'm then planning on having him replace the coil and plug in cylinder #2. My mechanic has already suggested that I might want to go to Toyota. I tend to balk at that idea as I'm sure I won't get out of there for under $500 after they replace all the plugs and coils, and charge me for the OBD reading. This is NOT the first time this has happened. I've had the engine shudder to a start for
at least 6 years, normally on cold mornings when it is damp out, and it has now happened in three different states/climates.
I'm wondering if I should take it to another mechanic, as mine was unable to turn off the lights. Or, (my spine is tingling) should I take it to Toyota and all will be well??
andrewclaus
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:38 pm
Location: Golden, CO

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by andrewclaus »

Have you checked the owners manual for a reset procedure for the VSC system? A quick look on line shows some cars have a procedure. Engine codes will reset with a drive cycle, but I don't know about chassis codes.
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

I just found a boat load of you tube videos on inserting a paper clip into the scan tool plug under the dash to reset Toyota codes. Using one paper clip, put one end into slot #4 on the top row, and #5 on the bottom row (counting from left to right). Turn the key to the power position only and pump the brakes 8 times in 5 seconds. Turn the key to off and remove the paper clip. Start the car, and the warning lights should all be reset to normal. I'll give this a try if my mechanic, who is putting in a new Denso plug and ignition coil in cylinder #2, cannot get the lights off with their high end scanner.
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

what's also interesting is that Denso has changed the number of the ignition coil for my car. It was: 90919-02258 and is now: Denso 673-1310. I wonder if that is an indication of some change/improvement to the part or just a numbering game? The company name and number is now stamped atop the head of the ignition coil whereas the three (now) older ones still in my engine are generically black on top. Denso's own website has one of the better prices oddly enough, but Rockauto.com has the best at $50 and only $6 for shipping.
jolt
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by jolt »

Hi Caretaker, did the shop happen to try to read the chassis codes for the VSC and ESC or did they just read the generic power codes? Are the lights on anymore or did they go off after driving it for awhile? The chassis code problems can effect the engine.
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

Unfortunately the mechanic took the cables off of the battery so I drove home with no error codes or blinking lights. As such, I am unable to perform the paperclip test with any validity. Since unhooking the battery is only a temporary solution, I'll drive the car today and tomorrow to see if the error lights return. If you would be so kind, can you tell me more about what I should be concerned about with the blinking VSC and constant ESC so I can ask my mechanic the best possible question? Thanks.

Post-amble: I sent an email to Denso today to find out if the new part number designation was due to an improvement to the product or just a renumbering exercise. I'll let you know if they respond.
Post-post-amble: they just sent me a note, stating that there isn't any difference in quality/performance between the two part numbers.
P-P-P-A: after two days, the car is still running fine and the lights have not returned.
jolt
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by jolt »

Caretaker, if you remember this post; https://forums.genvibe.com/phpBB3/viewt ... le#p530438

I replied about a TSB from Toyota about the rear wheel speed sensors on '09-'10 Matrix and Corolla. The same issue happens with the Vibe. If the computer does not see a wheel is turning or is getting bad data from the wheel (signal spikes) because of a connection issue, the computer does not know what to do and will freak out: hence all the dash lights flashing on the different control systems. The traction control will interact with the engine control. Some different ways that traction and stability can be brought back in control is to kill power from the engine. This can be done by pulling the throttle back or randomly dropping out cylinders (spark) to reducing the engine power output.

It looks like you are in Florida along with the salt water. Salt is never good for any metal or electrical connections. I guess I would start with pulling connections at the wheel speed sensors. If the connections look good, I would put some dielectric grease on the connection to seal it from corrosion and put it back together. Just the act of pulling the connector apart may be enough to get a good connection again by re-seating the connection. There are two connections for the rear sensor cables, one at the sensor and the other up in the wheel well. I would also pull the connector from the ECM under the hood and check the connections there too. Note: only do these after disconnecting the battery. This is only for your "dash lights all coming on " problem.

Your rough idle morning start problem could be uneven compression in the cylinders. Check the mechanical things first, like the cylinder compression to rule that out. Look for other clues like the color of the coolant in the coolant tank and how dirty is the coolant tank. This can indicate leaking compression gases into the coolant system if tank is muddy looking or coolant color is off. This can followed up with other tests to confirm. Leaking or bad fuel injector can make for hard starting and missing at startup too. And as always: use only Denso brand spark plugs and coils, which I am sure you already know but this can never be stressed enough. When engine is warmed up, does the idle smooth out and does the engine have good power?
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

Excellent writeup; thank you for that. However, should any/all of that be true, the junkyard awaits. The car has been through 6 years of road salt in DC, 4 years of salt fog and earthquakes in San Diego, and now 2 years at the beach. Knowing that this "rumbling at startup" had occurred very infrequently for at least 6 years when the morning temperature is cold and the humidity is high, I'm crossing my fingers that simply one of the Denso ignition coils I put in at 60,000 was short lived. I've spent many years pulling out the garden hose at 20 degrees and power washing the undercarriage, and the engine is so clean you can flip pancakes on it and enjoy the meal. Should this car decide to turn on me, I won't hesitate to show it the door. With reports of the XM lawsuit allowing me to finally transfer my lifetime subscription to one other car, this vehicle has been on notice since it cost me mega bucks to pull the engine to replace a $10 timing chain cover gasket. I've already been doing a nationwide stalking of the Crosstrek model I want and am prepared to fly to the dealer that has my color-trim-no moonroof. After two days of no return of the Exorcist dashboard, I'm hoping this was a simple malfunction of cylinder #2's ignition coil.

Jolt: I just read your notice on the speed sensor. My only question would be, why would I have a "stuttering engine" at startup? What would that have to do with the speed sensors going bad when the car isn't even moving, and the fact that I can seemingly mitigate the problem over these 6 years by simply turning the car off and restarting again? Still seems to point to an electrical (ie: ignition coil) failure that the onboard computers didn't like. Thoughts?

Also: I just read this over at Toyota Nation website which seems to indicate that the ABS light should be illuminated. I don't believe that was the case with mine:
1.) Confirm that the ABS warning light is illuminated.
2.) Use TIS Techstream to preform a Health Check.
3.) If either C0210 or C0215 DTC codes are stored under the ABS system, inspect the rear speed sensor connectors and sensor pins for rust/corrosion.
4.) If rust/corrosion is found in the left rear and/or right rear speed sensor connector, disconnect the connector and replace the speed sensor wire harness.
If rust/corrosion is also found on the terminals of the rear speed sensors, replace the speed sensors.
Refer to the Technical Information System (TIS), applicable model and model year Repair Manual for rear speed sensor replacement and installation:
• 2009 Corolla:
Drivetrain - Axle/Differential - "Axle and Differential: Rear Axle Hub: Removal and Installation"
• 2009 Matrix (2WD):
Drivetrain - Axle/Differential - "Axle and Differential: Rear Axle Hub: (for Double Wishbone Type Suspension) : Removal and Installation"
5.) After the repair is complete, clear any stored DTCs and test drive the vehicle to confirm the repair.
jolt
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by jolt »

Caretaker: The dash lights flashing could be caused by the rear speed sensor TSB. Since this is a know issue with the car, it would be a good place to start as TSB are written for issues that are seen in higher amounts then what is normally seen by the manufacture. The speed senor relates to the stability control and the traction control, along with the steering angle input, and the ABS brakes. These systems share input information and talk to one another along with the engine controls.

The rough engine idle at startup is a different problem, which is why that is in it's own paragraph at the end. I think you have two different problems. The coils and spark plugs are not going to cause all the dash lights coming on. I do not believe that one thing is causing all the issues you are seeing. You have two problems; 1) The rough engine idle when the engine is cold, and 2) The dash lights coming on.

When engine is warmed up, does the idle smooth out and does the engine have good power? A leaky fuel injector can cause rough startup idle too. Pulling the connections under the hood on the ECM should be something you can do at home after disconnecting the battery. Just the act of re-seating the wiring connection may help. With the mileage you have on your Vibe, It is going to start taking some replacement parts now and more TLC then when it was new. Hope it works out as a new ride is always sweet until the payments start. Everything wears out or degrades over time but if you can keep the Vibe running, It may allow you to save up for that new ride.

p.s. I see in your sig that you were thinking about a Hyundai/Kia. Avoid the 2.4L engine. They have problems with seizing up. I just had to have my engine replaced after only 42,xxx miles on it with 2,000 mile oil and filter changes done to it through it's life. Also that engine is horrible for heating the inside of the car during the winter. If it wasn't for the electric seat heaters, I would have gotten rid of my KIA years ago. ;)
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

Still no return of the lights. I'm still trying to keep the Vibe together so I can at least sit in the new Tucson and Sportage, but I have to believe that burgeoning center consoles will omit them from my list once my right knee gets pinned in during my test-sit. You've come up with quite a list of potential problems, which only reinforces my position of getting rid of the car before it becomes a liability. BTW: Hyundai has eliminated the 2.4 and designed a brand new 2.5 for their fleet.
g0ldrush1958
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:16 am
Location: St-Lambert, QC. Canada

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by g0ldrush1958 »

yes the gasketif its the original are orange, they leak on the bank one corner replace it with the black one made by felpro
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

I don't believe the original gasket was orange. I believe the orange one, which is now what I have in as a replacement, is the redesigned Toyota update. Again, my warning lights have not returned, so it appears that the code for cylinder #2 was the culprit. I may replace the rest of the spark plugs and ignition coils in the coming weeks just as a precaution.
CraftsmanQuad19
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:34 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by CraftsmanQuad19 »

The 2.4 Kia engines had a little bit of sand left in the head from casting. Should be covered under warranty. If it wasn’t, you got screwed. Kia has since fixed the problem
“I don’t do nothing well.” -Keith
Caretaker

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by Caretaker »

so I replaced the last three spark plugs and ignition coils yesterday. After 80,000 miles on this set, the plug for chamber 1 came out dry. Chamber 2 was fixed by my mechanic when I had the shuddering engine with full dash full of lights. Chamber 3's plug was wet with oil on the threads and a bit on the hex nut. There was NO sign of a fouled plug up by the side or center electrode. Chamber 4's plug threads were just barely moist with oil. I am stuck in the '70's in that when there was an oil fouled spark plug (copper), it showed readily all over the electrodes.
Question: given that the iridium plugs fire much hotter than copper, is that the reason I am seeing oil near the threads but nowhere near the firing position? Or would a fouled plug, even iridium, show "damage" on the electrodes?
Since I am not one who believes in replacing only one plug or one ignition coil, I can say that the car is driving much smoother today and I feel like I am a little lighter on the gas pedal as well. I'll track my mpgs over the coming weeks to see if my year long 26 mpg numbers return to the 30 mpg number I was accustomed to the first 10 years.
BTW: rock auto has the ignition coils for $50. I got them for $17 and change on ebay. Everything came in sealed Toyota boxes with matching numbers. While I don't know the born on date of these ignition coils, I'm guessing they are not like lunch meat and don't deteriorate sitting on the shelf.
andrewclaus
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:38 pm
Location: Golden, CO

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by andrewclaus »

Hopefully it's just a leaking valve cover gasket allowing oil in the spark plug wells. I'd do a compression (or bleed-down test if you have the tools) to be sure.
BrandonMassey
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: Engine idles very rough after cold start in colder weather

Post by BrandonMassey »

zbyers wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:02 am No problem. Keep us posted on the fix!
As the cold weather comes around again, I can confirm this fixed the problem, thank you!
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