Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

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Seattle_03GT
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Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

Hi all,

I've been dealing with some minor issues with occasional starting, odors in exhaust and a minor coolant leak that needs refilled ~3oz. weekly. The shop just notified me there is a pinhole coolant leak in the radiator but that the the P0300, P0301, P0303 codes that were triggered last night when it did not start the first timeand the inconsistent smooth starting other times were because head gasket is going.

He said the head gasket replacement is $3,500-$4,000 and that the radiator would be $575 additional . . .

I am at 171,000 miles on the '03 GT . . . I still love the car and don't want to retire it but it probably doesn't make sense to pay for the replacement?

The mechanic mentioned there are aftermarket additives for head gaskets that I could try to limp along further.

Does anyone have any recommendations or additives or experience that maybe I can keep driving it and the final failure will not be catastrophic? Should I try to keep driving until the end? The mechanic said it could fully go out in 2 days or 2 years, no one knows.

Thanks!
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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Caretaker

Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Caretaker »

very simple.......it is an 18 year old car. Throwing money into anything over 10 years brings diminishing returns on your investment (repair bills). Everything dies and one should always be prepared by doing research well ahead of time before our current mechanical device fails. I had a head gasket warp on my 12 year old 1994 Corolla wagon and put the money into machining it and keeping it running. Big mistake on my part, one I won't make again. Everyone has unique finances, but putting that aside for the moment, there are better cars out there than the Vibe in the years since 2003. The previous generation CRV is just one example. No one can give you proper advice not knowing how much money you have to throw at the answer. So the easy answer is, it is 18 years old. Quickly do your research and determine what comes next before it fully gives out.
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joatmon
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by joatmon »

Aside from the misfire codes and an intermittent rough start, did they have any other evidence to determine it was the head gasket?
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Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

I appreciate the input, you are confirming some of the same thoughts I had. I can afford another vehicle but would like to make this last as long as possible and thought I would try the forum for a bandage, (this forum has provided many gems).

I spoke with the mechanic and wrote down more details, he said they did:

Combustion Check - check for exhaust in coolant, they add a chemical to the coolant, if exhaust is in the coolant the color will change which they did observe this after the engine came up to temperature.

Checked the Oil -no coolant in oil, "so it is not to that point yet" 

Spark plugs - no coils are misfiring, some discoloration on plugs, but everything is firing, they need changed probably, the erratic start is a compression issue from the leaking gasket.

Radiator- Pressure tester - added 18psi let it sit, then let it run and observed the tiny leak after engine came up to temperature.

Possible bandage: Heavy additive - added to coolant might be a band-aid - comes in forms of powders, chips, sawdust,  etc.  Warning:  Once it's added its in the entire system for good (heater core, radiator, etc), it could cause secondary issues but it can be tried

Also sometimes the head can have warped from extreme heat and that causes the gasket separation too . . .

I'm guessing this head gasket issue was largely contributed to by the thermostat issue I had a few years ago (causing temperature spikes) followed by a leaking water pump which also caused temperature spikes in addition to very low coolant.
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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tpollauf
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by tpollauf »

The mileage you've indicated is rather low for a 17 year old car, and if solid (no rust) it would be worth fixing BUT nowhere near those $$$ figures you've stated. Yeah this would be a labor involved repair but I have friends locally where I'm at that would do that repair for half if not more than what you've indicated.
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joatmon
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by joatmon »

this coming from no experience or research, but if its just a slight coolant leak, would it help to try to retorque the head bolts? Don't know if that's something that can be done by just pulling the valve cover, or if its more involved disassembly to get to them.

and if you try it and it goes horribly wrong, then don't come to me for damages ;)

that should be enough disclaimers


I looked, and car-part.com has no GT/XRS engine in the US within hundreds of miles of Seattle.
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zbyers
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by zbyers »

Honestly, your best bet would be to find a used 2ZZ and just swap the entire engine. You can get the replacement from a junkyard for less than $1000 usually, and then labor for install can be free if you do it. If not, most shops probably charge another $1000 or so. But you'd still be cutting the repair bill in half.

Edit:

i am doubtful that the head gasket is going. It just not that common on these vehicles. Do you thoroughly trust the place you went to with their diagnosis? Perhaps it's worth paying a second shop diagnosis fees to determine if it is indeed on it's way out.
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andrewclaus
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by andrewclaus »

No way would I dump that kind of money into a car that age. If I couldn't fix it myself (I did a valve job on newer car in the 90s and was happy with the result), I'd try the magic additive for the heck of it, but plan on scrapping the car.

I've only had my Vibe for a few years, but I already think it would be hard to replace and it would be a tough decision. Personally, I'd look at a FWD Rav 4, since I had problems with a first gen CRV back in the 90s.

I just watched a video on a head replacement for the 1ZZ (my car) and would definitely invest a few hours into that job.

But first I'd do more tests on the engine. I have a compression tester, and if I didn't see definitive results I'd rent a leak-down tester. If you can't do that yourself, I agree with the idea to get another shop to do it.
Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

Thanks for the input,
Do you thoroughly trust the place you went to with their diagnosis?
It was a new shop to me in the new area I've moved to so that may be a good point. He explained to me on the phone what they do as I detailed above. Then the invoice says:
Tech Found: Head gasket issues causing misfire codes and hard starts, coolant leak is coming from radiator small leak (pressure tested) (and did block test to confirm head gasket). Valve cover gasket leaking, need plugs and fuel service treatment.

Recommendations: Head Gasket, Water Pump, possible timing chains, thermostat, valve cover gasket, spark plugs and EFI service.
When the shop initially called me with the results they basically said, "It is basically a head gasket issue and I'm not sure where you are on replacing the vehicle but a lot of people consider that at this point." He did not mention "water pump, timing chain, thermostat."

It says they did the 'block test,' maybe they just assumed and did not do it I suppose.
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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jolt
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by jolt »

Have you had to add coolant to it? Has it over heated on you? What color is the the coolant in the overflow jug? Is the overflow jug discolored and if so what color? These can be signs of a compression leak into the cooling system. What does the exhaust smell like and do you get white vapor from the exhaust as the motor warms up?

Stop leak additives are useless for these types of leaks that go into the combustion chamber and for the most part are stop gap fixes for other types of leaks. They could damage other things like your heater core too.

Missing at start up could be bad spark plugs, a leaking injector, etc. and not a head gasket. You can buy on Amazon a tester for compression gases in the coolant and test it yourself. At the very least, take it to another service garage and have them give you you a estimate of what they think is the problem without telling them anything other then the car misses at startup.
Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

Have you had to add coolant to it? Has it over heated on you?
Yes, after experiencing overheating every couple of weeks I was able to mostly stop the overheating by diligently checking coolant and adding about 3 oz. of coolant to weekly (~300 miles). This mitigated most of the overheating. I took it to a mechanic ~4 months ago and he could not find a leak, he asked to leave it overnight with pressure and still could not find a leak. The leak only occurs under certain conditions, because now you can see fluid under the radiator passenger side. I've also seen coolant residue that looks like a pressure burst on the battery area so there seems to be inconsistent things happening, (I haven't seen any residue added to the one time bursting/leaking up high at the battery.)
What color is the the coolant in the overflow jug? Is the overflow jug discolored and if so what color? These can be signs of a compression leak into the cooling system.

The coolant looks the same green to me and the jug does not look discolored.
What does the exhaust smell like and do you get white vapor from the exhaust as the motor warms up?
It seems like I have noticed an odd odor in the exhaust and maybe a little bit of white vapor, though it's not obvious.
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

I just spoke with another shop. They had a much lower quote on the head gasket (~$2k), but also recommended a 2nd diagnostic opinion because "Those are really great engines, I don't really see head gaskets go on those so I would do another diagnostic. If there was residue in the exhaust tester from the previous test it can corrupt the test results."

They can also get engines from Japan or in the states but there are none in stock currently. He was surprised at the cost which was 40% higher than the 1zz, the 2zz engine is harder to find.

I will probably go there and get a diagnostic soon.
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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zbyers
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by zbyers »

This second shop sounds like they are much more familiar with these engines, which is a good sign.
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Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

Well I received some bad news after I went to a 2nd shop for a different diagnostic opinion and unfortunately they diagnosed a head gasket failure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diagnose Customers Concern: Coolant leak and intermittent Overheat.

NOTES
Engine had a long crank to start at start of test drive. After test drive, noticed the smell of hot coolant under the hood. The strongest source of coolant smell is from the driver side of the engine around the radiator. It has been raining and have several wet spots under car but haven’t pin pointed the sources at this time. Pressure test on coolant system and engine will crank-no-start. Found that my coolant system pressure tester has risen to 30 psi from the 15 psi I started with. This indicated that the combustion gases are getting into the coolant system and over-pressurizing it. The head gasket is what seals these gases in the combustion chamber. Pulled spark plug #1 and have steam rising out of cylinder. The head gasket has failed and will need to be replaced. Water pump looks new, has it been replaced recently. Has the engine over heated at some point, or it was losing coolant and got hot?
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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Jbenrod
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Jbenrod »

At least now you have confirmation you head gasket is not sealing. If you wish for it to be repaired, the head will have to come off in order to examine the gasket and surfaces further.

At this point there are no bandages or solutions. The head has to come off or you get rid of the car and someone else will do the work.

I am doing this very job right now on a 1990's 4 cylinder Camry, so I believed it was worth spending the money to repair an otherwise good vehicle.
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andrewclaus
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by andrewclaus »

The first garage also performed the radiator pressure test. I wonder why they didn't catch the obvious pressure rise the second garage saw.
Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

The first garage also performed the radiator pressure test. I wonder why they didn't catch the obvious pressure rise the second garage saw.
Hmm, good point. The first garage seemed to backfill some things when I asked how they tested it . . . I'm not sure if they actually did all of the things they told me they did. The person on the phone said, "Here's what we do . . ." as if he was going off of past experience of how they usually do it. Though he did mention specifics about some tests and what was/wasn't seen in my car.
I believed it was worth spending the money to repair an otherwise good vehicle.
One thing the 2nd shop mentioned was "When you redo the head gasket that is just the top of the engine, the bottom of the engine still has 172k miles on it and it's no guarantee that problems won't come up."

However the 'other shop' (3rd shop that I did not visit) that quoted me on a used replacement engine for $2.4k if I remember right is cheaper then the head gasket job at this 2nd shop. I may be tempted to go that route.

However I am now commuting 80 miles/day for my toddler's daycare (which is next to my work 20 miles away but now I work from home since Covid so it's a double commute.) I'm looking for other daycares, it's difficult to find good ones so being a new parent is pushing me toward upgrading to a larger family vehicle . . . The Vibe is basically the size of a crossover SUV though I'm kind of kidding myself that upgrading will be that much different I think. I'm guessing it will be an improved noise/ride experience. It seems like when I rent cars on trips I really notice they are quieter/softer. None are as fun as the Vibe though.
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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Seattle_03GT
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Seattle_03GT »

Check out the audio/video/pictures of the 2nd diagnostic . . . I was pretty impressed with this report sent via text immediately after it was complete.

https://motorist.autovitals.com/l/92Unks
'03 GT Black, 171k, Dual Friction Clutch, otherwise stock.
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jolt
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by jolt »

The coolant should not have been green in color. It is most likely the wrong coolant in the engine, which may have added to the head gasket failure.

If the engine has been overheated, the head may be warped. The piston rings may have lost some of there tension from overheating. With that mileage on the motor, you know the rings are worn too. If you have the cylinder head rebuilt ( valve and seats ground, new valve stem seals, valve clearance set, etc. ), your engine will most likely use more oil because of the high compression that the rebuilt head will provide to the worn piston rings. Most of the time the increase use of oil past the piston rings is off set by the new valve stem seals that get install on the head rebuild. It is the overheating damage to the rings that does not get off set. If it was overheated to the point of pushing coolant out then piston rings may be damaged also.

No one knows, except for you, possibly how bad the engine was overheated. How much do you want to put into the car, or may be how much do you want to spend to get the car running like new. Typically the more you spend, the closer to a new running car. You do not want to spend more then the car is worth so check the book value of the car on line to get a general idea what your car is worth. Remember that anything in this world is only worth what someone else is will to pay. Take the emotional attachment to the car out of the equation when trying to decide if the repair cost is worth it.

Replacing the engine may be a better option for the money. Just find out of the replacement engine has a warranty and does the warranty cover labor.
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Dave2009vibe »

I'm in a similar situation. I have a 2009 Vibe 1.8L with 234XXX miles. I replaced the knock sensor and one coil pack this summer (plugs and another coil pack last summer). Soon after the coil pack I started experiencing low power on take off from a stop. I tried some things with no improvement. I took it to a local mechanic who had good reviews (I haven't used anyone in years, so have no direct experience with anyone). They said there was low compression in three cylinders and diagnosed a probable blown head gasket between cylinders 2&3. They said this engine is known to "scorch the head when this happens". They recommended an engine replacement for $4000. I brought the car home. Does anyone know anything about this head scorching issue? I've never heard of it before. I'm not going to put another engine in it. I'm wrestling with whether to replace the head gasket. I've never done it before and don't have a good place to work on it. The Haynes manual recommends pulling the engine and transaxle to do the job. I'm not doing that. I'm 60 years old and this is the first brand new car I ever bought. I love it and I'd drive it a million miles if it would last, but I'm afraid it might be time to give it up.
Caretaker

Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by Caretaker »

Sorry for your troubles Dave.
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Re: Head Gasket going - bandages? solutions?

Post by andrewclaus »

Did you run low on coolant and overheat? Or perhaps they expect to see burnt valves from misadjustment. I don't think any Toyota engines are known for that issue.

Not too long ago I saw a video of a guy pulling the head on this engine, working under the hood. I'm also in my 60s and the only reason I'd do that job would be if I couldn't afford a newer used car to replace the Vibe. But I've only had mine three years and I don't intend for it to become a hobby. And if mine had close to a quarter million miles, I might not bother at all. Since it still runs, I'd try selling it cheap to a kid who really wants to do the work.

The one time I pulled a head I had a garage but just basic hand tools. It needed a valve job. I carried the head intact to the shop and paid them about $100 plus parts to rebuild it.

Before I did the work, I'd be sure diagnostics show that the rings are okay.
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