Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

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BustedVibe
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Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

last Tuesday I finally had a set of steel wheels put on my vibe, which in itself was a whole adventure with work estimates being botched and some due diligence not being done.. However I came out of it with a proprated set of new tires (40k out of 70k treadlife on the used set), 4 new steel wheels, a brand new set of lug nuts, and no dismounting fees for my 4 alloys I was keeping, or the steel spare I had intended to use (it turned out to be a 15" which is its own weird story), paid $550 after everything was said and done.

Then the nightmare began. Got on the Interstate and immediately approaching 60mph and above I had vibration issues, both in the wheel and in the seat / through the floor. Jarring, apparent vibrations. Not violent though. So I went back thursday as I was in the area for work again, and my salesguy checked everything himself. The rears were fine, but the fronts were slightly off. It did improve things a little, however I could still feel the vibrations they were just not as bad as before.

I had a light day and was in the same area for work again so took it right back. They checked them all again but the tires kept coming back as OK on the roadforce machine, which they even re-calibrated prior to running my tires on, so they changed their positions on the car based on some weight metric or whatever.

Again this has improved the situation quite a bit. But its still clearly got a vibration issue at 60mph - 80mph. Does the usual thing where it improves dramatically or resolves at different speeds along that range, and certain sections of road even cause improvements before going back to more annoying. At least right now its on the cusp of barely tolerable / acceptable. It doesn't distract or preocupy me from driving.

I have so far been lead to believe if it comes down to it they will at least attempt to swap out my tires for a new set (I didn't ask them to clarify whether they meant just the tires, or the rims, or both), but so far two other possibilities have been floated.

One is that it could be an alignment issue, with toe or camber (causing chop I guess?). It feels like the alignment got slightly worse when the steels were put on, but its been a while since I had the alignment done and something I wanted to do anyway.

My brother on the other hand seems to think its a suspension problem. I don't know what to make of that. I did have one swaybar link replaced the other month but mechanic said the other one seemed fine. prior to getting the new tires I did complain to him about an oscillating/wobbly type noise coming from the front driver side which he said was probably tire noise. It became audible around 50 - 60mph but I never had vibration issues like this with the alloy wheels so I don't know if it could be related. That particular noise DID go away with brand new tires but it bothers me that I had it in the first place, like newer tires might just be masking whatever caused the noise to happen (again... suspension?)

Gonna ask Firestone if they can squeeze in a suspension check when I'm there on Monday for my alignment.

I almost regret swapping out the alloys now, but I've wanted them for a while to see if they make winter driving a little less stress inducing. I'm quite content with the way they've softened up the handling of the car already (feels less twitchy). hoping for a little extra bite in the snow.

Thoughts?
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vibrologist
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by vibrologist »

Alignment check is a good idea. I always get the alignment checked when mounting new tires because that's when you get the best results. A suspension check should be routine with the alignment because you can only align properly when the ball joints and stuff are not worn out.

New tires on new rims will need to seat. When you hit the brake the tires will slip on the rim just a little bit. That will throw off the balance. After a while this effect will abate or go away completely. That's why I am not surprised by your story.

The quality of the tires makes a difference too. Typically higher quality tires are better balanced as they come out of the mold and they need fewer weights after mounting. If they needed a lot of weights then the tires are probably of low quality to begin with and more difficult to balance.

Are they doing a good job? My shop uses a torque wrench to mount the wheels. If your place just cranks them down with the air tool or a lug wrench I'd suspect they work with a "who cares?" attitude.

All the best!
Last edited by vibrologist on Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BustedVibe
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

From what I can observe, they seem to be doing a good job. I'm using the Discount Tire chain. The tires I bought were Cooper CS5 Ultra, the first set lasted me about a year and a half roughly, but I do a lot of driving (40k in that time). I usually watch them work on the car and they don't do anything that seems to set off red flags.

I've only ever see them put a single weight on the wheels, they're not small weights but I don't know if they'd be considered "big", they have some length to them. They start the lugs back on with the airgun but then they hand-toque them too.

I didn't know about the slipping thing, but I guess that makes some sense, since there is some lube around the rim and such. Overall I haven't really had any complaints about their service or attention to details. They went out of their way to cut me a good deal after it was apparent some miscommunications occured, etc. And the guy who did my sale actually did the thursday adjustment himself. After they changed things around they came out and explained what they did and why, so I don't feel like they're slacking or anything.

Probably better service than I'd get at a Walmart :lol:

I guess we'll see how good their service is after I get the alignment and suspension looked at, and if they're OK'd but the problem still exists.
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by Bookworm »

Are these -factory- steel wheels? If not, you MUST get the hub centric rings to adapt the center bore of the wheel to the hubs.

I found out the hard way. I got around it by always going home, jacking up the car, loosening the nuts, then gently using the nuts to center the wheel. (turning by hand, rather than by power tool)

If you get the rings - buy the metal ones, not the plastic ones. They last longer. Just be aware of them, and that if you have to put on the donut, you'll have to pop the centric ring off, or the donut won't seat properly.

<edit> - basically, the wheel starts bouncing up and down REALLY fast, because you're no longer driving on a circle, but a slight oval.
zbyers
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by zbyers »

It could be several things:

1) tires worn uneven.
2) worn suspension.
3) bent rims.
4) roadway.

I would check all of the above, outside of the roadway since that's out of your control. If the tires are worn evenly, balanced, and the wheels are bent, and you still have issues odds are your suspension is in need of some love.
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BustedVibe
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

Well I would hope the tires were evenly worn, as they are brand new... and same with the rims not being bent. I mean its a tire shop, so I try to have a little faith they would catch something like a bent rim, or the hub-centric requirement.

They are aftermarket steel wheels, I can't even imagine what a set of factories would cost even on ebay :lol:
I guess I could have tried local junkyards but, eh..

So here is where I currently stand.

I went to Firestone on Monday, they could not do the alignment because left inner tie rod/end has play in it and needs to be replaced. They wanted $300 to do that so naturally I said no thanks and went to my local mechanic for a quote when I got home. $150 installed, parts and labor as I figured it would be. He can't do the work until the 23rd though. But I'm going to ask him to inspect the suspension as well, although I'm pretty sure Firestone would have found anything else wrong - I asked if there was any difference between the check they do for alignment and if I just walk in and ask them to inspect it and they said nope.

Nobody seemed to think the tie rod issue could be the culprit as far as the vibration goes. I doubt wheel bearings would cause this (but what do I know) but I will have my mechanic inspect those too. I've longed complained about a noise from the left front, and only recently with these tire issues has the left front started making a growling sound when turning the wheel significantly to the right (back to the left alleviates it). Although its only really audible between about 25 - 40 mph. Pitch does change with vehicle speed from what I can tell, so I'm suspecting a bearing.


I'll be in the area for work again tomorrow, so I plan to stop back at Discount Tire when I'm done and just check in with them regarding the situation. Ideally I want to have any work done on the vehicle before I start hassling them about exchanging for a different set of fresh tires or something like that.

Since their last visit the car has actually calmed down somewhat further, but still very clearly has some kind of issue with a consistent oscillation occuring at the same interval. The vibrating/bump/shaking whatever you want to call it, now chooses to mostly hide until approaching 65 - 75mph or faster. Sometimes I swear I can feel a side to side / shimmy type vibration through the seat, mostly in the left-side that feels like it is coming from the back. I believe this is where they may have moved the standout "lighted" weight wheel to. But I guess it could be mind-tricks.

Still it has somewhat calmed down since they did the initial position swap on the tires. So based on this information it feels like either

A) uneven tires out of the mold
B) a single bad tire out of the mold

I don't want to go through demanding they exchange out the tires as defective just yet, even though they seemed to indicate they probably would do that. I want to at least try to have any repairs done first, then see how the car drives. Maybe I'm just being too considerate, but I don't want to be that asshole customer who kept coming back and it turns out the car was the problem not the wheels or tires they sold me.
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by Bookworm »

With aftermarket wheels, I still suggest you check the wheel bore diameter.

Your description sounds _exactly_ like what my car was doing after I lost a couple of the hub centric rings (because I didn't know they were even -there-. They didn't tell me when they sold me the wheels)
zbyers
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by zbyers »

Bookworm wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:54 pm With aftermarket wheels, I still suggest you check the wheel bore diameter.

Your description sounds _exactly_ like what my car was doing after I lost a couple of the hub centric rings (because I didn't know they were even -there-. They didn't tell me when they sold me the wheels)
I wouldn't think hubcentric rings are really necessary on these. My center bore is slightly larger on my aftermarket wheels, and i have zero issues otherwise.
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Bookworm
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by Bookworm »

zbyers wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:46 am
Bookworm wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:54 pm With aftermarket wheels, I still suggest you check the wheel bore diameter.

Your description sounds _exactly_ like what my car was doing after I lost a couple of the hub centric rings (because I didn't know they were even -there-. They didn't tell me when they sold me the wheels)
I wouldn't think hubcentric rings are really necessary on these. My center bore is slightly larger on my aftermarket wheels, and i have zero issues otherwise.
The nuts can center the wheels to an extent (they're conical), but you have to put the nuts on slowly, preferably rotating the tires while tightening. If they're just slammed on by a tire store, they can end up off. I ended up recentering my wheels every time I had the tires worked over.
BustedVibe
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

Stopped in at the tire shop and talked with them for a bit, regarding my plans and such. They said no problem come back any time if the problem is still there and they'll swap the tires out with another new set.

I did ask about the hub centric thing, and was told yes they're the correct wheels. I see on the web site they also have info about hub centric and other mounting types, rings, and such so I am guessing its something they would know to be doing properly.

stopped by mechanic today and took car for a ride. a couple "I'll be damned" later, he said sounds like early stage bearing failure on the left front. So I guess that's getting added to the list of things I don't have money to be fixing :lol:

This is still one of the most reliable cars I've ever owned though, that's for sure. Actual repairs have cost me very little over the past few years, between gas itself and then new tires + repairs it's probably a 50/50 split on all the money I've spent
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by Bookworm »

BustedVibe wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:59 pm Stopped in at the tire shop and talked with them for a bit, regarding my plans and such. They said no problem come back any time if the problem is still there and they'll swap the tires out with another new set.

I did ask about the hub centric thing, and was told yes they're the correct wheels. I see on the web site they also have info about hub centric and other mounting types, rings, and such so I am guessing its something they would know to be doing properly.

stopped by mechanic today and took car for a ride. a couple "I'll be damned" later, he said sounds like early stage bearing failure on the left front. So I guess that's getting added to the list of things I don't have money to be fixing :lol:

This is still one of the most reliable cars I've ever owned though, that's for sure. Actual repairs have cost me very little over the past few years, between gas itself and then new tires + repairs it's probably a 50/50 split on all the money I've spent
Ouch. I hate bearings. I've luckily never had to be involved with them much. If you decide to do it yourself, remember that you can borrow the puller from a couple of different auto parts places, as long as you buy the part from them.
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by jolt »

Tire balance goes through harmonics so vibrations change with RPM's. It is not that the faster you go the worse it gets. I would check the rims for run out and being out of round. Also check the tires. Jack the car up and spin each wheel by hand to check. Ply separation or damage in the tires belting can cause vibration problems too. No tire is perfectly round, period. Back in the fifties and early sixties the good tire shops had tire cutting machines. The tires back then could be so far off that the only way to get the car to not vibrate was to cut the tire tread on the rim so that it was round. The brake rotors are spinning also and can cause vibration if the rotor is not mounted flat to the hub or the rotor is out of balance. Some rotors have balance weights in the vent holes. Over time these weights rust and can fly out causing vibration. If some one used an air gun to tighten the wheels and did not torque the bolts down in the proper pattern, it can warp the hub which will cause the wheel to vibrate because of run out problems. I would check the rims first.
BustedVibe
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

Some interesting info for me to consider, thanks.

I'll have my mechanic do the wheel bearing for sure, that's not something I'm prepared to do. I did have him replace the tie rod on wednesday however. I actually noticed what appeared to be a significant improvement in the vibration problem, which is kind of puzzling because nobody I've talked to seem to indicate it could effect it.. I am wondering if the fact there was play just made the problem, from whatever source, worse.

Right now I have a relatively smooth ride.. I can get up to 75 - 80mph on the Interstate and there is no annoying shaking through the wheel, or observable vibration of the wheel, outside of that very gentle bit you might expect from a car moving at high speed. You can still detect a faint, repeating pattern of some kind, through the wheel while gripping it, but it's not shaking like it was... i.e I can wrest my wrist across the wheel and not have my hand start shaking.. It's just a steady interval of some kind of faint ___-___-___-___- which seems related to speed. I am wondering if that is just the suspension letting stuff through due to age (I think struts/shocks have never been replaced on this car and its at 250k miles). If it is a single bad tire that might explain the interval, as it could be matching a bad spot on the tires rotation?

However it does seem intermittent, and worse on some surfaces than others. Concrete seems a lot worse than pavement (but it still happens on -some- paved roads), which I found odd, as mentioned before, prior to the new wheels I never had a longstanding problem with the alloy rims.. Roads I routinely travel that are concrete were fairly smooth. Steel is heavier (mass/density) than alloy, so again my mind wanders to... suspension?

But now that it's intermittent I've become paranoid its a sticking caliper or something. No sticking was noted while it was in the shop, but I've been through 2 sets of calipers now since I got the car. What I assume were the originals, I had one either sticking or seized, I don't remember which.. Then after a while the set he replaced them with, which I was told doesn't suffer the same problem, ended up with a caliper seizing and I had to have those warrantied. It kind of pissed me off because I was at that point investigating aftermarket calipers and shoes I wanted to just buy myself and have him install, but what can you do when your car is on a lift with a seized caliper and needs new pads too, when you drive it for work almost every day :x

I have another appointment this wednesday to try and get it aligned again. With my luck they'll find something else broken. :mrgreen:
So far tire shop swears up and down it probably isn't the rims.. So after alignment, we'll see where it stands. I kind of want to believe them, with it being on a machine that measures stuff with lasers and whatnot.
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BustedVibe
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Re: Alloy -> steel, vibration headaches...

Post by BustedVibe »

Been a while since I posted, so thought I would update.

I had my alignment done which went fine, and then I had my wheel bearing replaced recently. I don't have a TON of complaints currently, although sometimes it still feels a little "off". In general I've had the car up to around 85mph on the Interstate and it handled pretty OK. There is no major shaking going on with the steering wheel. The only complaint I have now is it just feels slightly out of balance (even though the wheels should still be balanced). It could be because I did hit 2 deer with this car (although I don't think I ever bent or twisted the frame) or just age related wear on other parts (most suspension has never been replaced except for front struts before I bought it). I've put almost 100k on the car myself so I'm sure a lot of stuff is probably gonna be breaking anyway :roll:

We did have an evening where it was fairly cold and the car had been sitting for a good 6 - 8 hours in a parking lot. When I got up to highway speed I actually did notice some shaking in the steering wheel. I kept working the brakes to see if maybe a caliper was stuck or rubbing on one side but nothing really seemed to correct it until I drove fast for a good distance. So I'm not sure if heat expansion is helping to mitigate some bad rubber or what. It's tolerable though. Way more than before.

I'm waiting to see how the car behaves when I go back for my first rotation after 6k miles (almost there). On a slightly more positive note, I really like the way the car handles now with steel wheels. It feel less twitchy, and I feel more deliberate in my movements. A few inches of snow on the ground today and driving around town was OK. I go out of town later. Getting up our somewhat steep driveway involved very little detectable wheel spin too, although I did give it a little gas at the bottom.
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