GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

This is an 03 GT.

The clutch and pressure plate were replaced about 6 months ago and ever since then, it would intermittently be IMPOSSIBLE to get it into gear. Shutting the car off and pumping the clutch will allow it to go into gear. The master cylinder was replaced. No change. This morning, the car would not go into any gear when running. With the car off, it will go through all the gears. If you try to start the car with the clutch pedal down, the car lurches as if it were in gear with the clutch engaged. The slave was then replaced and bored. No change.

Can anyone help? Any ideas?

I've heard misaligned clutch plate. I've heard faulty slave. I've heard bleed the lines.

This is just my opinion, but it sounds like a slave cylinder issue to me. I haven't done a clutch on the Vibe yet but did one on the Jeep. I had similiar issues to this. I was driving and the only way to get it to shift out of gear was to turn off the ignition shift turn on and go. It was a really hairy way to drive home. I took the whole thing apart and the clutch looked great. The throwout bearing was shot and I replaced slave cylinder as a precaution.

The slave cylinder provides the pressure to disengage the engine from the trans. I have a feeling when it was done, they did not bleed it correctly. This can be done like bleeding brakes. Leave the cap off the brake booster, push the cylinder in by hand until no more bubbles appear in the resevoir. It may be dif on the Vibe but the concept is the same.

I understand what you're saying. But the problem started with the original slave, then one day, it wouldn't disengage the clutch at all. Then a new slave was installed. Same problem.

Maybe the old slave leaked air into the system then when new slave was installed, it wasn't bleed correctly?

But why would this all start after replacing the clutch?

I would start by having some one make sure the slave cylinder is being actuated. I can take a video for you to see how much its supposed to move. This is also a VERY COMMON symptom of a clutch disc being installed backwards.

gtv237 wrote:I would start by having some one make sure the slave cylinder is being actuated. I can take a video for you to see how much its supposed to move. This is also a VERY COMMON symptom of a clutch disc being installed backwards.

the video would be super helpful.

Clutch disc installed backwards? That would be bad, no?

Could the release (throwout) bearing or clutch fork be bad? Maybe one of the prongs of the clutch fork was broke and now the other has finally broken as well?

I've heard bleed the lines.

Ken , It may seem unlikely to you but it sounds like you still have air in the system. First when you replaced a master cylinder (brake or clutch) you should bench bleed it before you install. Second Sometimes a slave because of the release fork pressure can hold a air bubble that can get trapped in front of the bleeder. Things you can try (1) Unbolt the slave and bleed. (2) Attach a tight fitting hose to the bleeder, drop the other end into a bottle filled with bake fluid. Open the bleeder and pump your pedal slowly 6 to 12 times than bleed again. (3) Reverse bleed it with a syringe . GOOD LUCK

Ken, Just so you can stop thinking it is mechanical in the clutch pry the release fork back and secure it. Start the car and see if you can put it in gear I am sure you will be able too.

ken99287 wrote:

gtv237 wrote:I would start by having some one make sure the slave cylinder is being actuated. I can take a video for you to see how much its supposed to move. This is also a VERY COMMON symptom of a clutch disc being installed backwards.

the video would be super helpful.

Clutch disc installed backwards? That would be bad, no?

Could the release (throwout) bearing or clutch fork be bad? Maybe one of the prongs of the clutch fork was broke and now the other has finally broken as well?

Like mr.clutch said, it can be very hard to get all the air out of a hydraulic clutch system. It's not like brakes. For some reason there's always little places air can get trapped in a clutch. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary to have air in the system. But you can always verify whether the clutch hydraulics are working or not by comparing your clutch fork travel to one of a properly bled clutch. And I will take a video for you when I get home tonight so you can so just that.

A backward disc will act a lot like air in the system. The only difference is you'll have proper pedal resistance and full fork travel.

More likely than not you would experience noise or clutch pedal vibration from a release bearing or fork issue.

When it was working properly, it drove great, no shakes or anything. So I guess not the bearing or fork?

Would air in the system only cause difficult/impossible shifting intermittently?

Now the clutch is not disengaging at all... sure does sound like a hydraulic issue...

There you have it. Looks like just over a half inch of travel.



First things first, go measure your fork travel to see if the hydraulics are working. Then report back and we'll go from there.

gtv237 wrote:There you have it. Looks like just over a half inch of travel.



First things first, go measure your fork travel to see if the hydraulics are working. Then report back and we'll go from there.

Ok, so if it travels about half an inch, then it's gotta be something mechanical. If not, then there is some kind of hydraulic problem.

Is it ok to use a vacuum pump to stuck it out from the bleeder?

ken99287 wrote:Is it ok to use a vacuum pump to stuck it out from the bleeder?

Yes, that's fine. You can also tap on the master/slave and lines to try and dislodge any bubbles.

Oh speaking of the master, how do you bleed it? I'm not certain it was installed correctly. You fill it with fluid before installing?

What happen to the good ol days where the clutch was depressed directly from the clutch pedal? I miss my old Firebird Formula and Camaro Z28 where you needed a strong left foot in order to drive them. Back onto this problem, no issues at all with my 2009 Vibe GT manual but will learn from this problem once it is resolved. Good luck!

KEN,Just to reply on some of the postings.
You asked about intermittent working.It was not working what you were doing was forcing FIRST GEAR and with a partly disengaged clutch you can shift most times with out issue. That is because your trans is fully synchronized in all forward gears. (not reverse).
I saw a reference about brakes. The hydraulic clutch system has the same principal as your brakes but its volume is small and it travel is greater so it makes it more sensitive too air in the system.

mr.clutch wrote:KEN,Just to reply on some of the postings.
You asked about intermittent working.It was not working what you were doing was forcing FIRST GEAR and with a partly disengaged clutch you can shift most times with out issue. That is because your trans is fully synchronized in all forward gears. (not reverse).
I saw a reference about brakes. The hydraulic clutch system has the same principal as your brakes but its volume is small and it travel is greater so it makes it more sensitive too air in the system.

Ok, I don't fully understand the synchro bit, but I understand what you're telling me. I have air in the system.

You also mentioned bleeding the master before install. What do you mean? Pour fluid into it first?

So my next question is - if i cannot get it working by bleeding the system fully, can I start it in gear too get it going, then match revs with the speed with the next gear and ease it up without disengaging the clutch? The car is not at home. If I need to break the engine tranny apart, I want to do it at home.


Again, thank all you guys for the help and advice and suggestions. Over the years, this and other forums have been a real life saver!

Ken, Check your messages I responded to it earlier. Let me know if you received it.

Got it. The car is 2 hours from home, so that's why I'm asking all these questions. Thanks!

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30537&p=343704&hil ... ed#p343704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That kinda sounds like it could be the problem if the issue isn't hydraulic.

Does this look about right for spring the engine/tranny?

http://wehavescissors.blogspot.com/2009 ... be-or.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Technically you could drive it without the clutch but I would only do that as a last resort.

As far as bleeding the master or slave cylinder, I don't think the vibe requires any special procedures. Just install the parts and bleed at the bleeder screw. You could have a loose connection, however. Possibly pushing the air out at times and then sucking it back it. Did you happen to notice if the fluid level was lower than usual?

When are you able to go out and look at it?

I'm going out there to tow it home on Tuesday evening.

I'm hoping it's as Mr. Clutch says and I just need to bleed it fully. That would be the ideal situation.

Holy crap! Tow dollies are expensive now! The want just under $50 for a day! It used to be about $20!


http://youtu.be/1hCL2s-Gv_0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://youtu.be/A9My_PH-5kU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems like there is full travel... dunno, I'll check in the morning again.

Ok, so the car runs fine in neutral. If I try toput it into gear, it grinds pretty bad and won't go in. Trying to get it off the Dolly, I tried to stay it with the car in reverse. It didn't have the battery juice to do it, but it also got sick in reverse! It was very difficult to get it back into neutral.

If the throwout bearing was froze, with the car off I should still have had no problem getting it back in neutral, right?

Does it still sound like a hydraulic issue? How do you shove something between the slave and the little lever on the tranny? I'd like to wedge the thing open and start it up all the way just to confirm if that will disengage the clutch.

Could it be as simple as the "piston" at the clutch pedal needing adjustment? Pre-load it a little bit?

Ken, Was the youtube link off you car?
If it was travel look good doesn't seem likely to be pedal adjustment either. As for the throw out bearing if it were hydraulic I would think a possibility but it is just a bearing and most times when they fail they chatter or squeal. If it had sieged? it should had made some bad noise before it destroyed the pressure p.

Back to the problem you are having if the video is of you car. I would be very suspicious of the release fork one because of the squeak you depress the clutch pedal and two because it seems to travel correctly. I think you are not seated on the pivot or the fork is bent. KEEP UPDATING.

Yeah, it's a video of my car.

So what do you suggest? Bust it open? Is it something that should be attempted in the driveway?

Doesn't this seem like my issue? viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30537&p=343704&hil ... ed#p343704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken, I don't know what your talents are with a car but you could do it in a drive way.
I have never seen the Toyota disc and pressure plate but some off the things you have said are usually impossible. Such as:
Disc installed backwards they are not able to be installed back wards because the disc will not mate to the flywheel surface if turned around.
Throw out bearing if it was the bearing it would had have to fallen apart (NOISE) because it is just a bearing on a car with a slave cylinder. There are cars with Hydraulic Throw Out Bearings they do not use slave cylinders and release forks.
The squeak when you push in the clutch is to loud a pressure plate will make some noise but that was a lot. If the car was running does it make noise either with or with out the clutch being pushed.(rattling, chattering, squealing, etc.)
I have seen on here were people have had clutches go out in a short time after replacement but I have just thought they were installed wrong. So many times when you have failure after you replace something it is installation era.

I didn't read all 26 posts, so forgive me if it has been mentioned before.

You can fill a hydraulic system through the bleeder with a hand pump or a larger syringe. This could provide a better escape for trapped air as it is pushed up.

I'm okay with cars. I've done a swap on my civic including putting in a new clutch kit and flywheel before with my cousin. I'm not saying the things I mentioned had to be the issue, they're just ideas and stuff I found perusing the forums.

New development though. The little lever that the slave pushes is loose. Loose as in there is no tension on it from the slave "at rest". When I Rev the engine, that lever rattles around and makes a racket. With the clutch pedal pressed down all the way, slowly paying it into 1-5, it won't go into gear, but it will roll forward slightly. Kinda like it's in gear and the clutch is slightly engaged. In reverse, it grinds.

I wedged a 1/4" thick piece of metal between the slave pin and the lever and it still wouldn't go into gear, but it felt as if it wanted to roll a bit more than workout the "spacer". I think it did, but it could be psychological...

What do you think? Maybe adjust that pedal?

I don't doubt that the clutch might be put in sloppily. It definitely could have been.

Ken I this is not meant to sound bad but you should stop trying to push it into gear because that puts a lot of wear on the sycro rings.

Some play on the release fork is normal but the play should be forward and back (pass side to drivers side) not top to bottom. If you move it around you should feel the fork move on the pivot attach to the trans in the bell housing. You should also feel the bearing slide on the input shaft retainer sleeve (the front of the trans.) and make contact to the pressure plate.

mr.clutch wrote:Ken I this is not meant to sound bad but you should stop trying to push it into gear because that puts a lot of wear on the sycro rings.

Some play on the release fork is normal but the play should be forward and back (pass side to drivers side) not top to bottom. If you move it around you should feel the fork move on the pivot attach to the trans in the bell housing. You should also feel the bearing slide on the input shaft retainer sleeve (the front of the trans.) and make contact to the pressure plate.

I'm have to check the play later, is pouring out. Are you saying that I should be able to push that lever side to side and feel the bearing slide?

I am not trying over and over again to push it into gear. This is the first day I have had the car. I only towed it home last night. I tried to put it in and noticed it wanted to roll. I figured I'd see if it did that in all gears so I would have some info to post here in case it can help troubleshooting the issue.

Are you saying that I should be able to push that lever side to side and feel the bearing slide?

Yes But don't get me wrong the movement will not be a lot if you look at some of the pictures you have links on. You will see the pivot ball that the fork locks onto. The fork will only be able to move left to right. If you try to move it up and down it you should feel it kind off roll on that pivot but not actually move up/down.
IF the release fork is rattling something is not right (da ) I know but the fork should have some pressure on it. Do you know of the bearing was replaced? It is sounding more like it may be time to take it apart to see what happened. Failed part or installed wrong.

mr.clutch wrote:

Are you saying that I should be able to push that lever side to side and feel the bearing slide?

Yes But don't get me wrong the movement will not be a lot if you look at some of the pictures you have links on. You will see the pivot ball that the fork locks onto. The fork will only be able to move left to right. If you try to move it up and down it you should feel it kind off roll on that pivot but not actually move up/down.
IF the release fork is rattling something is not right (da ) I know but the fork should have some pressure on it. Do you know of the bearing was replaced? It is sounding more like it may be time to take it apart to see what happened. Failed part or installed wrong.

Ok, up and down, it doesn't really move much, just enough to know that it's not tight. The left and right movement is very sloppy. Doesn't really feel like it's attached to much back there.

If I break it apart, I'm replacing everything - clutch plate, pressure plate, throw out bearing, pilot beating (if there is one), rear main seal, tranny seal, and get the flywheel resurfaced.

The only problem is I haven't torn this deep (pulling the tranny out of a car) into a car by myself before. Always with my cousin or brother.

ken99287 wrote: The only problem is I haven't torn this deep (pulling the tranny out of a car) into a car by myself before. Always with my cousin or brother.

Everybody's been there at one point. It's not really that hard to do when you take your time and have a little common sense. You seem to have a good understanding of car mechanics. The real question is do you have the tools? Not having the right tools can make the job a nightmare.

Its so hard to diagnose over the internet. I wish you were closer. If I could take a look at it I could probably pinpoint the problem without having to take it apart. But one things for sure, once it's apart you will definitely be able to see what the problem was.

http://wehavescissors.blogspot.com/2009 ... be-or.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does that look about right? Any way to do it without an engine host?

I was searching about fork problems and came across this video.

http://youtu.be/owcUNZmP8zI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it show an incorrectly installed TOB in the fork/spring right at about 1:17. I know this is a rwd Chevy example, but it should be the same principal, no? Could this happen on one of our cars?

Ken

Any way to do it without an engine host?

The answer is no but you should have a way to support the engine from the top. The reason why is by supporting a engine from the pan compresses the gasket and can cause oil pan leaks.

ken99287 wrote:I was searching about fork problems and came across this video.

http://youtu.be/owcUNZmP8zI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it show an incorrectly installed TOB in the fork/spring right at about 1:17. I know this is a rwd Chevy example, but it should be the same principal, no? Could this happen on one of our cars?

Any thing is possible I have seen several mistakes through the years dealing with repaired cars ( HOME/PROFESSIONAL). The best part is if you buy one of them you usually get it very cheap you fix it and it runs forever.

The guy that did the clutch how confident was he/she that it was assembled correctly and what parts were actually replaced?

The guy had some other guy do it. Confidence was not high - was a cheapie job. Clutch was replaced. Throwout bearing was not. Flywheel was not resurfaced. Unsure if the pressure plate was replaced or not. Unsure what fluid was used to fill tranny. Since then, new clutch master and slave.

There's no getting around it.I 'm going to have to drop the tranny. I don't have a engine hoist - it can't be done with 3 mounts left holding the engine? Another problem is I'm in a parking lot - if i manage to borrow an engine hoist, after pulling the tranny out if I can't finish it right away, can I put the 3 engine mounts back on so I can remove the hoist for the night?

I suppose this is a good time to replace the engine mounts or put inserts in... I hear the rear mount is very difficult to reach.

The guy also never put the battery hold down back on, so I'm going to have to source one of those. Darn amateur backyard mechanics! Haha.

As a side note, when I still lived in the Philly Area, I once drove by some Hispanic guys doing some kind of engine removal/repair/swap parallel parked on a busy street. There were two guys standing at the sides of the car with a rod on both their shoulders and the engine hanging from it by a seat belt. One guy working underneath. That was pretty neat and resourceful.

Ken if you think that only the disc was replaced that may explain the loud squeak when you depress the clutch. Pressure plates should not be reused because off the heat and centrifugal balance. If you are going to reuse one you must mark the PrPl to flywheel relationship failure to do so will usually result in failure.

As for doing the job don't you have a driveway that you can use. You said earlier that you had a brother / cousin that help with a Honda.
You can leave the engine supported by a 4x4 across the fenders just make sure to distribute the load so you don't crease the top of your fenders. If you use a jack from under the car just lift it and support it don't leave the weight on the pan.

My family all live in Philly... kinda sucks. I moved to the Pittsburgh area.

I do have a driveway, but it's brick and very uneven. My housing community has lots for extra cars or guests. That's where I'm going to have to do it.

Weight is actually being supported? The whole engine? I guess I'll have to Jack it then support it with 2x4. I just hope they don't slip when I'm trying to stab the tranny back onto it!

Have you checked out that website with the directions? Do they look good?

And yeah, I plan on replacing everything. Would be stupid not to.

Any opinions on this clutch set?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000CIAW8 ... NWUGAC2TE4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you checked out that website with the directions? Do they look good?

I have They were pretty good write ups /videos but my time under cars always tells me DO NOT UNDER ESITMATE a job. The ones that are simple can be nightmares & jobs that you are planning to take a lot of time go so smooth take you think you did something wrong.

Weight is actually being supported? The whole engine? I guess I'll have to Jack it then support it with 2x4. I just hope they don't slip when I'm trying to stab the tranny back onto it!

What I meant was get the car up on stands (securely) then start to take things apart. When you are ready to pull the mounts raise the engine slightly and support it from the top. I do not know what the weight of this engine is but I would use 4x4 or at lease a doubled up 2x4.
One thing that I would do different is when I put a manual trans in a car I do it on my back with the trans on my chest. I just get in to position pick it up and work it in. I think that it gives me more control than either sitting on a jack or trying from the top.

Yeah, sounds good. I'm going to go ahead and order the clutch and rear main seal. I'm going to order a fork and spring too in case they're damaged. What type of grease would you recommend?and I pretty much grease up everything on the tranny side, right?

Oh I'm sure it's not going to go as smoothly as the video, there are always snags, but I'm pretty confident I'll be able to figure it out once I jump into the job. I always do. I'm just reluctant to jump in sometimes - I'm a worry-er I guess.

One more question. What determines the clutch slave cylinder pin's resting position? Will adjusting the pedal adjustment give me more slave pin travel?

ken99287 wrote:One more question. What determines the clutch slave cylinder pin's resting position? Will adjusting the pedal adjustment give me more slave pin travel?

Think of it as a drum brake cylinder with only one piston in it there is a shoulder that it rest on. The travel on the slave is determined by the volume of fluid the master cylinder pushes. The adjustment of the pedal will only change end play on the pedal (where the master starts to push the fluid)and where engagement begins on release.

mr.clutch wrote:

ken99287 wrote:One more question. What determines the clutch slave cylinder pin's resting position? Will adjusting the pedal adjustment give me more slave pin travel?

Think of it as a drum brake cylinder with only one piston in it there is a shoulder that it rest on. The travel on the slave is determined by the volume of fluid the master cylinder pushes. The adjustment of the pedal will only change end play on the pedal (where the master starts to push the fluid)and where engagement begins on release.

Won't taking up free play in the pedal increase the volume of fluid being pushed through the lines to the slave?

I haven't messed with it yet, but what are the symptoms of low manual transmission fluid? Engine oil instead of the gear lube in the tranny?

Maybe there's a possibility the guy thought it was a Honda and put 10w30 in there? Or he messed up the axle seals and the stuff leaked out?

By the way, anyone ever try this thing?

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/produ ... cts_id=717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Usually with low fluid you get a lot of noise which increases as the fluid gets lower until kaboom!

Raven wrote:Usually with low fluid you get a lot of noise which increases as the fluid gets lower until kaboom!

What about wrong oil? Like 10w30?

I haven't messed with it yet, but what are the symptoms of low manual transmission fluid? Engine oil instead of the gear lube in the tranny?

Maybe there's a possibility the guy thought it was a Honda and put 10w30 in there? Or he messed up the axle seals and the stuff leaked out

Ken , Low gear oil 70 /90 w , Motor oil any viscosity , ATF is also sometimes use, or not putting anything in it after installing the trans none of the listed would cause your problem. If it was empty after driving it would be hard shifting and start to scream/howl because of heat. If wrong fluid was used it would still go into gear it would just be hard shifting.