Antifreeze/Coolant research

Technical info on the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix including do-it-yourself info
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10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Antifreeze/Coolant research

Post by 10vibe »

From what I can tell, Prestone Extended Life and Dex-cool (an Organic Acid Technology or OAT ) are very similar. They both contain Ethylene Glycol, Diethylene Glycol, Sodium 2-Ethyl Hexanoate (2-ethylhexanoic acid?) and Sodium Neodecanoate." They are both probably Silicate, phosphate, borate and nitrite free, if Prestone Extended Life is a true OAT. Both have "Extended rust and corrosion protection" and "Extended protection to all engine cooling system metals including aluminum." Some believe the Sodium 2-Ethyl Hexanoate (2-EHA) is the main culprit in gasket and seal problems, being a plasticizer. Seems that most of the "universal" coolants are using the Sodium 2-Ethyl Hexoanate and Sodium Neodecanoate now, but not sure if all universal's are silicate free. There is some speculation that the gasket problems of the original Dex-cool might have been more of a problem, or at least compounded by Potassium hydroxide. Need to study this more.A combination of changing PH levels due to time, low coolant levels, faulty radiator caps, air, and Iron blocks caused another headache for GM and it's Dex-cool. The rusty brown sludge caused nightmares.There might also be a compounding effect with a mix of older coolants high in silicates and the OAT coolant and 2-EHA working in tandem to further breakdown gaskets and to also create gelling.When looking at the official Prestone Dex-cool, they use the proprietary excuse for not listing things when it comes to listing the inhibitors, as does Peak for some of their formulations. I think Honda and possibly Toyota are on record about their dislike for the Sodium 2-Ethyl Hexonate (and silicates and borates), but further research needs to be done on that. The Asian formulations uses either sebacic acid or it's diester Sebacate instead of 2-EHA. The Asian car manufacturers, including Toyota, recommend a Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) type of coolant. HOAT coolants typically mix an OAT with a traditional inhibitor, such as silicates or phosphates, which is also known as Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT). The Asians go for more Phosphates (P-HOAT or POAT) and no silicates, a prime differentiator to the G-05 HOAT'S that use no phosphates and low amounts of silicates (S-HOAT or SOAT) which the Europeans, Chrysler, and Ford prefer. Europeans, because of their hard water, thinks phosphates do not hold up as well and creates scale deposits, and that silicates are more robust, especially in the short term. This is another good reason to always mix or flush with distilled water, which runs about 83 cents a gallon at Wallyworld. G-05's usually do not contain 2-EHA, but usually contain borates. I did not see any coolant specifically labeled G-05 on the store shelf's, unless some of these "universals" do contain a little silicate, is HOAT and possibly G-05. The argument for HOAT is that inorganic technology gives faster protection, especially for pitting from cavitation. Remember that antifreeze/coolant also protects from galvanic actions from dissimilar metals, and inhibits rust, so it is a necessary thing, even if you live in an area where antifreeze protection is not a concern.Incidentally, I think that VW, Audi, Porsche, and Saab might have gone to an OAT coolant. VW recommends (G12), which might be BASF's Glysantin G30 formulation. Rumor has it that except for a few Mazda/Ford joint designed engines that uses Mazda's FL22 P-HOAT or Motorcraft's deep green P-HOAT formulation, Ford is going from the G-05 S-HOAT to an OAT antifreeze, and eventually just the OAT when engines, gaskets, and cooling systems get redesigned or put out to pasture. It will have both Sebacate and 2-EHA.http://www.automotivedesign.eu....aspx and http://www.sae.org/mags/sve/8242, a great read! "Dex-cool like" universal coolants are taking over all the shelf space. The big question is are they OAT or HOAT, and if HOAT whether they use silicate or phosphate. I presume most are true OAT and have no silicate or phosphate and should be labeled as such. There might be a couple universals, including store brands that are actually S-HOATS, especially if they do not say silicate free on the bottle. A truly universal coolant that can mix with anything, give maximum protection, and meet manufacturer's requirements or recommendations to all vehicles is debatable, considering the different approach between Asian P-HOAT and European (G-05) S- HOAT. There has been law suits on this issue. It would be nice if they would all agree on one coolant. It looks like silicate free is the future and that leaves the Asian P-HOAT blends and the OATS formulations, including Ford's new coolant of the future. The S-HOAT G-05's, which some consider the better universally compatible formulation might be phased out and OAT's formulations such as Dex-cool and the very similar universals looks to be the big winners. The growth of premixed 50/50 with the demineralized water helps take care of the hard water issues and further reduces the need for silicates and borates over phosphates and actually helps both HOAT with phosphates and OAT formulations. The prevalence of 2-EHA in most everything on the shelf will probably continue. No matter which wins out, it is clear that auto manufacturers have to develop the gaskets and seals and pressurized coolant systems that can withstand the plasticizing attributes and low coolant and oxygenation problems. An all aluminum built engine and cooling system also helps alleviate some of the rusting and sludging problems. Older vehicles beware! 2010 Vibe's cooling systems hold 5.8 quarts for 1.8l, and 6.0 quarts for 2.4 liter. If using 50/50 prediluted, 2 gallons would have to be purchased, unless some sell by the quart or liter. The 2009-2010 Vibe's comes from Nummi with Toyota Super Long Life 50/50 prediluted pink coolant.Toyota wants $29.95 a gallon for either the concentrated red, or the newer 50/50 prediluted pink around my neck of woods. I think Toyota's pink coolant contains Sebacic acid, or possibly it's diester sebacate, which is also a plasticizer. I found Zerex Asian Vehicle 50/50 prediluted at Napa for $10.95. It is dyed pink, like what comes standard in the new Toyota's. It is listed as a Hoat. http://www.valvoline.com/produ...e/105Zerex Asian's ingredients is listed as Water, Ethylene glycol, Diethylene Glycol, Sodium Benzoate, Corrosion inhibitors, defoamers, and dyes. "protects all metals including aluminum, phosphated HOAT technology, silicate and Borate free, compatible with Asian coolants, pink dye color, pre-mixed with demineralized water, 5 years or 150,000 miles." Meets or exceeds the following specifications: Hyundai/Kia MS591-08, Mitsubishi ES-64217, JIS K 2234-1994, ASTM D3306, ASTM D4985, Ford WSS-M97B55-A, Federal Specification A-A-870A and is recommended for Toyota/Lexus, Scion, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Subaru, Mazda, Suzuki, Isuzu, Dae Woo and Daihatsu vehicles. I could only find the Zerex Asian formula at NAPA. Advanced Auto, Autozone, O'Reilleys, Walmart, Kmart, and Target did not carry it. http://www.peakauto.com/antifreeze.shtml, Peak Global Lifetime looks really interesting being silicate and phosphate free. At first glance it sounds even more interesting being a non 2-EH formula. Unfortunately 2-EH looks to be different than 2-EHA, and it is confusing as to whether their might be 2-EHA in it. Are they basically the same or different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Ethylhexanol. Could this be a misprint? Hexanol, hexanoate, hexanoic...where is a chemical engineer when you need one. Wish they would list all ingredien
ts and take the mystery out of it. It does contain sodium benzoate, and a proprietary inhibitor. Kmart has it for $11.69 per gallon in 50/50 premix. Menards, $7.99 for 50/50 (Menards and Peak sponsor a race car together).http://www.globalautoparts.biz....htmlToyota 50/50 Pre-diluted Super Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant (pink color) Factory-filled pink fluid specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles 50/50 Pre-Diluted formula does NOT require the addition of water New generation ethylene-glycol based premium engine antifreeze/coolant that offers excellent corrosion protection Contains water, ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, sebacic acid, & potassium hydroxide Protects from -34ºF to 265ºF (using a 15 lb. psi pressure cap) Meets all Toyota warranty requirements & ASTM Specs---------------------------------------------------------------------------Edit: 7-9-2011http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...81931http://w ... cle_ID=816 2004 article Motor Magazine, coolant confusion, It's not easy being green..downloadable pdfhttp://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1655, 2010 article Motor Magazine, cooling system service...downloadable pdfhttp://forum.miata.net/vb/arch....html, there is a post from a motorcycle magazine article on the history of the way coolants diverged between the U.S., Asia, and Europe. I have seen this copied in a couple other forums:..."Coolant technology has independently evolved in Japan, North America, and Europe. The engineers who created these technologies studied and cited each other's patents but developed their respective approaches based more on practical experience than on theoretical models.For the past few decades, nearly all automobile engines manufactured in Japan have been made primarily of aluminum. In North America, most engines are still made from cast iron, although aluminum is rapidly gaining market share. In Europe, aluminum has been dominant for decades but not as dominant as in Japan. (For example, the ubiquitous VW/Audi 2.0T engine has a cast iron block.)Aluminum and iron have very different corrosion properties and require different antifreeze formulations for optimal performance. In particular, aluminum fares best with a "low pH coolant" with a pH is in the range 7.8-8.3 while cast iron fares best with a coolant pH in the vicinity of 10.5. The Japanese quietly started using a form of HOAT (hybrid organic additive technology) in automotive applications over 15 years ago. (A HOAT coolant uses a combination of inorganic and organic additives.) They never relied on silicates because their coolant technology was specifically developed for aluminum engines. In this context, silicates were unnecessary and undesirable because of their abrasiveness (which attacks water pump seals). Japanese engineers also avoided borates (a form of inorganic additive) because they are abrasive and less effective than phosphates.In North America, coolant technology evolved primarily to support cast iron engine technology but it also needed to accommodate some aluminum engine parts including the occasional use of aluminum blocks which first appeared in the early 1960s. (Buick introduced an aluminum V8 in 1961 but ceased producing it in 1963 and subsequently sold it to Rover. According to Wikipedia, one of the reasons GM dropped this engine was radiator clogging caused by coolants ill-suited to aluminum.) North American automotive engineers determined that they could accommodate aluminum engine components by adding silicates to their standard coolant originally developed for cast iron engines. The abrasiveness of the silicates was not much of an issue given the assumption that water pumps (and perhaps cooling system hoses) would be replaced at regular intervals.In Europe, aluminum blocks have been widely used for decades, which has pushed coolant technology along a path much closer to the Japanese model than the North American one. European engineers also developed a form of HOAT technology (using benzoic acid as the organic acid) about 15 years ago but they used silicates and borates in the inorganic additive package. European automotive engineers reportedly had some negative experience with phosphates reacting with the tap water in some European locales. In addition, phosphates acquired negative environmental associations, so the European automotive industry developed and promoted phosphate-free coolant technology. As a result, European coolants have historically used borates (which are abrasive) in preference to phosphates.North American automotive engineers apparently recognized that Japanese HOAT coolants were superior in aluminum engines to North American coolants. In the mid 1990s, chemical engineers at Texaco developed a new purely organic acid technology (OAT) called Dex-Cool with a low pH (presumably targeting aluminum) and a much longer life than than conventional North American coolant (and somewhat longer than the Japanese and European HOAT coolants of the era). Unfortunately, the formulation of Dex-Cool was based primariiy on laboratory experiments rather than practical experience; hence, it not surprising that Dex-Cool encountered major problems in real world usage after GM adopted it in 1996. It would be fascinating to hear the inside story of how and why GM embraced Dex-Cool technology.Japanese automotive engineers strongly opposed the use of 2-EH (ethyl hexanoic) acid, the primary additive in Dex-Cool, because it attacks some compounds used in many engine gaskets. But Japanese engineers appreciated the long life of the Dex-Cool additive technology and revised their HOAT coolants about five years ago to rely primarily on a similar OAT package (based on organic acids other than 2-EH acid). The complementary inorganic additives in Japanese coolants, which reportedly provide more immediate corrosion protection than OAT, still include phosphates.More recently, european automotive engineers have recently updated their HOAT coolants for longer life as well. In Europe, Glysantin has released longer-lived successors to their older HOAT coolants marketed as SOAT (Silicon enhanced Organic Acid Technology). Of course, their older coolants were silicon-enhanced (silicated) as well, but truth has never stood in the way of effective marketing.The primary problem with Japanese coolant technology (in comparison with North American and European technologies) is that Japanese coolants are only marketed as OEM products. Essentially all Japanese automotive coolant is manufactured by the Japanese company CCI which has a North American subsidiary called Intac. But CCI/Intac does not produce any "aftermarket" coolant for North America. Although the Japanese manufacturers suggest that only coolants with their specific OEM labels are properly formulated for their vehicles, all Japanese automotive coolants appear to fall into two simple categories: "long life" (the original Japanese HOAT coolant) and "extra long life" (the revised Japanese HOAT coolant incorporating OAT without 2-EH acid). Within each category, the various brands of coolant appear to be nearly identical based on the limited information they have released (press releases and Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDSs). In fact, the MSDSs for some of the OEM branded coolants refer to the same CCI code numbers. Hence, if a cheap source of Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda coolant in the proper category is available, it should work well as a substitute for any other brand of Japanese coolant in that category. In addition, according the Japanese manufacturers, "extra long life" coolant can generally be used to replace "lo
ng life" coolant, but the old coolant must be drained for "extra long life" service intervals to apply.In Europe, BASF is the dominant coolant manufacturer under the brand name Glysantin. BASF makes a variety of different coolant formulations, most of which contain some silicates and none of which contain phosphates. Among these formulations, only Zerex G-05, a derivative of Glysantin G05 is readily available in the US aftermarket. Zerex G-05 actually appears closer in formulation to Glysantin G40 (the SOAT successor to Glysantin G05) than to its namesake because both G40 and Zerex G-05 have extended change intervals while G05 does not.In North America, the owners of Japanese cars either have to buy OEM coolant (often at exhorbitant prices) or try to find an acceptable aftermarket match to Japanese coolant technology. Among the available aftermarket coolants, Peak Global Lifetime is perhaps the best match since it relies on OAT without 2-EH acid. But it apparently does not include a complementary inorganic additive package like the Japanese coolants. (If it did it would be called a HOAT coolant rather than an OAT coolant). Zerex G-05 is another credible option because it is a HOAT coolant that does not contain 2-EH acid but it incorporates silicates ("silicon enhancement").......----------------------------------------------------------------http://donsnotes.com/home_gard....html, excellent site on antifreeze/coolanthttp://autorepair.about.com/li...h.htm, more about phosphates and aluminum phosphate corrosionhttp://sancarlosradiator.com/a...t.htm, Coolant Chemistry And Corrosion..."Dex-cool uses 2-EHA which among other things is a plasticizer which has the effect of softening plastic. GM intake manifolds are made of plastic..."...http://www.artsautomotive.com/...ds%5D, pictures of oem specific fluids, sealers, etc. for Asian vehicles. http://www.paulstravelpictures...Guide/, corolla coolant change...If you already have long life pink in, do not flush, just drain and fill with Toyota SLLC or Zerex Asian Vehicle coolant per Toyota's recommendations. The search continueshttp://www.popularmechanics.co...72246, flushing cooling systemhttp://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...99442http://e ... m/...23567
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
TONY TAT2
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research (10vibe1.8auto)

Post by TONY TAT2 »

Im always looken at vettes on line,looken at that surge tank would turn me offshould look like this
09 VIBE08 G694 GRAND AM93 GRAND AM85 VETTE78 VETTE
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research (TONY TAT2)

Post by 10vibe »

A friend of mine had a 1985 Vette that every so often would start to overheat until he jacked up the front passenger side, removed radiator cap and ran up to temperature. He would then burp the lower and upper radiator hoses a few times, then top off. He could find no leaks and never lost any coolant, except when over aggressively pumping his hose and burping it. If I were not so lazy I would probably rephrase that
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
Jammin81
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research

Post by Jammin81 »

Wow. I wish I hadn’t found this article!

It’s insanely detailed and amazing..... but now I’m confused as f-Ck!

Trying to work out what’s best for my 07 vibe at 120k.

They messed up an oil change and SURE when they replaced the engine / parts also put dex cool in the car as a coolant.

Now I don’t know whether to flush and use the 50/50 pink Toyota fluids or just stay with the dex.

Will the flush aggravate the system or potentially damage it? I wanted to change it to the pink 50/50 Toyota long life stuff.
She had a face like a box of frogs!
zbyers
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research

Post by zbyers »

Jammin81 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:35 pm Wow. I wish I hadn’t found this article!

It’s insanely detailed and amazing..... but now I’m confused as f-Ck!

Trying to work out what’s best for my 07 vibe at 120k.

They messed up an oil change and SURE when they replaced the engine / parts also put dex cool in the car as a coolant.

Now I don’t know whether to flush and use the 50/50 pink Toyota fluids or just stay with the dex.

Will the flush aggravate the system or potentially damage it? I wanted to change it to the pink 50/50 Toyota long life stuff.
You can either leave well enough alone, or switch it for the Toyota fluid. Biggest concern is sticking with what is already in the system or totally removing what's in there for your preferred color.
'74 Thing, '79 El Camino, '83 VW DoKa '91 Vanagon, '03 Base, 04 GT
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Jammin81
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research

Post by Jammin81 »

zbyers wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:36 am
Jammin81 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:35 pm Wow. I wish I hadn’t found this article!

It’s insanely detailed and amazing..... but now I’m confused as f-Ck!

Trying to work out what’s best for my 07 vibe at 120k.

They messed up an oil change and SURE when they replaced the engine / parts also put dex cool in the car as a coolant.

Now I don’t know whether to flush and use the 50/50 pink Toyota fluids or just stay with the dex.

Will the flush aggravate the system or potentially damage it? I wanted to change it to the pink 50/50 Toyota long life stuff.
You can either leave well enough alone, or switch it for the Toyota fluid. Biggest concern is sticking with what is already in the system or totally removing what's in there for your preferred color.
I ended up doing a full flush earlier and praying to the machine gods I got rid of enough of that dex cool crap.

I ended up using the Toyota pink long life stuff and (for now) the car is running great.

I’m cautiously and optimistically quiet! I will wait a month and post again!
She had a face like a box of frogs!
Caretaker

Re: Antifreeze/Coolant research

Post by Caretaker »

that ahhhh sound you hear is your car thanking you. I truly wonder how many aluminum radiators have been ruined by Dexcool as a result of poor quality control of our owner's manual
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