GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

8-11-10 WallStJrlBy MIKE RAMSEY And JOSH MITCHELLFive months into an investigation of safety issues involving Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles, U.S. safety officials have yet to identify any new defects beyond those reported by the car maker itself.And in more than half of the crashes blamed on sudden acceleration analyzed by the government, data from the vehicles' "black boxes" show the driver was not stepping on the brake at the time of the accident—indicating that driver error may have been at fault.Those were the findings that U.S. Transportation Department officials disclosed Tuesday to members of Congress, offering the first significant details of the government's ongoing investigation into Toyota's recall of more than 8.5 million vehicles globally since last fall.An accident picture provided by the lawyers representing the family of Guadalupe Alberto, of the wreckage of a 2005 Toyota Camry following an April 19, 2008 crash in Flint, Michigan. The crash is the focus of one of many lawsuits against Toyota which is facing questions over the safety of its vehicles.Officials stressed that their investigation continues and may take months to complete. But the data, at least for now, support Toyota's assertion that electronic defects in its cars aren't behind the incidents.Experts at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration examined 58 vehicles involved in sudden-acceleration reports and found data in 35 of them showed the brakes weren't applied at the time of the crash. Data from nine other vehicles showed the brakes were used only in the last moment before impact.The report doesn't specify driver error as a cause of unintended acceleration, although people familiar with the investigation have said the findings point to pedal misapplication—mistakenly hitting the gas instead of the brakes—as a likely cause.The release of the preliminary findings comes after calls from Congress to make public the results of NHTSA's investigation into complaints about sudden acceleration in Toyotas. The Wall Street Journal reported in July that NHTSA had found evidence of driver error in most of the Toyotas it examined in its probe.Toyota has identified floor mats that can entrap a car's gas pedal as one cause of sudden acceleration. Another problem Toyota identified is a gas pedal mechanism that sometimes can be slow to return to its non-depressed position. Toyota has recalled more than eight million vehicles world-wide to correct those issues.In five of the 58 vehicles NHTSA examined, the data recorders didn't record the conditions in the car at the time of the crash. Black boxes from five additional vehicles showed the brakes were applied early in the incident or in the middle of the event. In one case both the brake and accelerator pedals were depressed. Investigators found one case of sustained braking and concluded the floor mat likely trapped the gas pedal. NHTSA is still examining the data in one case, and in another it found that the information recorded was unrelated to an incident of sudden acceleration."The limited research completed so far has not led to identification of safety defects other than sticking gas pedals or pedal entrapment," the report said.Toyota said its own investigation has found no evidence that glitches in the electronic components of gas pedals could cause sudden acceleration, as some auto safety advocates have suggested.Rep. Bart Stupak (D., Mich.), chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight panel, which held hearings on the Toyota recalls this year, said the report resolved few questions about the sources of the Toyota crashe

Sounds about right!

I still haven't taken mine in for the recall. I'd probably let them do the shim but I don't want them cutting my gas pedal (I still have a hard time believing that is for real).

Quote, originally posted by jake75 »Another problem Toyota identified is a gas pedal mechanism that sometimes can be slow to return to its non-depressed position."The limited research completed so far has not led to identification of safety defects other than sticking gas pedals or pedal entrapment," the report said.Is this the source of "rev hang"?

Quote, originally posted by Kincaid »I still haven't taken mine in for the recall. I'd probably let them do the shim but I don't want them cutting my gas pedal (I still have a hard time believing that is for real).Really?!???I find is SO much easier to believe in a problem that you can SEE and can be duplicated easily such as a scrunched up floor mat than I find the gas pedal shim repair to be. I feel that the shim is a "shut up the media" procedure to take the heat off of the company.I'd get the pedal shaved way before I got the shim installed.Actually, I'd probably do both for I love my wife and family and would feel devastated if something horrible happened because I was arrogant and suspicious of a procedure to eliminate possible and known danger.Dave

As the "King" of extreme modifications (just ask anyone who knows me) I will likely modify my own pedal and associated linkage if/when I start to have issues. There are likely many ways to alleviate this problem and I will come up with the best solution which meets my driving habits & lifestyle

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »Really?!???I find is SO much easier to believe in a problem that you can SEE and can be duplicated easily such as a scrunched up floor mat than I find the gas pedal shim repair to be. I feel that the shim is a "shut up the media" procedure to take the heat off of the company.I'd get the pedal shaved way before I got the shim installed.Actually, I'd probably do both for I love my wife and family and would feel devastated if something horrible happened because I was arrogant and suspicious of a procedure to eliminate possible and known danger.DaveSo we have two issues that have been identified by the NHTSA (I won't even go into how most of them are proving to be driver error).1. "Toyota has identified floor mats that can entrap a car's gas pedal as one cause of sudden acceleration"This does not concern me. Floor mats catching on accelerator pedals have been an issue since floor mats were first put in cars. I'm well aware of the potential for something like that. I have checked the pedals with my aftermarket mats and I can't see anyway, short of the floor mat sliding up, that it can catch the pedal. The mat is held securely by the factory hooks. As for cutting the pedal, that strikes me as a very crude fix to a problem that is likely to never occur. If Pontiac was installing an entire new pedal assembly, I'd certainly let them do that. Can you imagine if an overheating issue was part of a recall and the fix was to cut a hole in your hood with tin snips? No way.2. "Another problem Toyota identified is a gas pedal mechanism that sometimes can be slow to return to its non-depressed position".This seems to be the issue that the shim is meant to fix. From responses on this board, it appears that some like the pedal feel afterward and some don't. All seem to agree it takes some getting used to. In any case, it clearly is not a placebo, as it definitely affects the pedal feel. Whether or not it is unecessary or not, I don't know. I'd jump at that fix if I thought it would lessen the rev hang. As for safety concerns for my wife or my driving-age daughter, I have gone over the concerns and the potential w/them so they'd know what to do if the engine begins to race.In any safety situation some common sense and weighing of the pros and cons needs to be made. In the run up to the swine flu H1N1 panic, my wife and I debated if we should get the vaccine. If we had not vaccinated the kids and one got the flu and died, sure I'd wonder what if. But if I had gone ahead w/the nasal vaccine (which is a weakened but live virus) and one of my girls had died, I'd also be wondering what if. So, we did the research into what people were more susceptible to severe reactions to the flu. She did not want to vaccinate. I was on the fence. Then, when the vaccine was still unavailable, every one in the family came down with H1N1. We all found the symptoms to be incredibly mild and short-lived.Life presents lots of dangers and measures to protect and prevent have all got to be weighed carefully. At this point, I probably never will take my car in for the recall. Frankly, I think the uintended acceleration issues were driver error and that it was hyped up by the media (and false reports by people making fraudulent claims).