GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

Hi everyone.I will try to keep this as short but as detailed as possible. I after years of consideration, I am considering a Vibe...please take a moment to follow along on my journey... Facts: -I have owned a 1999 Dodge Durango for 8 years and have loved it, aside from the 12mpg. -The cargo area is my most beloved aspect of the Durango -I love the clearance of the vehicle. -Conversely, mostly due to the clearance, I get nervous about the high center of gravity as I have driven over 14,950 miles in the past 5.5 months on the highway. -The V8 giddy-up. I have been mentally sold on getting a Pontiac Torrent for over 3 years. The features I loved about it was, of course, the better mpg (19-24), the clearance, and the cargo space + cargo management system. I also fell in love with the moonroof/sunroof and the premium audio package. After experiencing the awful gas prices as of this past summer, I started trying to consider other smarter (better mpg) alternatives to the Torrent. After fighting long and hard trying to find a Pontiac Torrent with better mpg and losing...I then submitted to the idea that in order to increase mpg, I need to decrease physical and engine size...thus began the saga of my looking for small-midsize SUVs. Next topic is financial resources. Having a spending cap of around $16,000, I realize I wasn't able to get a Torrent if I wanted to. Also, with "average" credit, I'm not bad off, but I'm not sure of what I could qualify for. So, after searching for vehicles like the Toyota Matrix, Honda Fit, and the like, I rediscovered the Pontiac Vibe. I loved the look of the Matrix, the mpg and the cargo management of the Fit, and the AWD capacity and name pep of the Vibe GT. And thus, I am left in a bit of a situation.... While considering a cap of around 16k, I have already come to grips with the fact that I will likely end up with the newest certified used vehicle I can find. I have found Torrent's available for well under 16k across the country...but then I began thinking of the mpg again...which brings me back to mpg mindful vehicles like the Vibe...which I have found considerably good deals for well under 16k as well...even in 2009 models. Lastly, I will need to roll with a Vibe GT if I end up Vibin'. I also think I would need it in AWD on the account of living in Southwest Michigan. Having said that, I have a couple of questions and scenarios for you all and I would love some productive and helpful input. 1) AWD vs FWD: What's the real-persons mpg difference? Engine performance? Is there a considerable mpg/engine lag difference between a 2008 and a 2009? 2) What do you feel is a respectable price to miles ratio on a certified used Vibe GT (2008-2009)? 3) Should I try and get a 2009 for the price under 16k with some miles on it or should I stick with an '08? Is there considerable differences between the models? 4) Should I attempt to take advantage of the 0% financing if possible on a newer 20k+ Vibe GT or keep the price down with a "used" and forgo the 0%? 5) If GM were to sell off or close the Pontiac brand, is this still a wise option to take?6) Considering the 16k cap, and the vehicle preferences, what would you do at the end of the day?

I'll see what I can answer for you, though I'm sure other more experienced members will have some head to head comparisons with 08s to 09s.Quote, originally posted by zathrak »1) AWD vs FWD: What's the real-persons mpg difference? Engine performance? Is there a considerable mpg/engine lag difference between a 2008 and a 2009?Comparing a 2003 AWD to 2006/07/08 FWD base model (we have 3), there's a slight bit less pickup when you jump on the gas, and overall the vehicle feels slightly heavier. It also sits about an inch higher which gives it a teensy bit more body roll. However, if I wasn't told if I was in an AWD or a FWD base model, I don't know if I could tell the difference during normal driving without really carefully paying attention. Unfortunately my sister who owns the 2003 AWD, doesn't keep careful track of her MPG, so I can't compare that for you.I have zero experience with 09s of any configuration though, so things may have changed. Quote, originally posted by zathrak »2) What do you feel is a respectable price to miles ratio on a certified used Vibe GT (2008-2009)?Vibe GT was only made from 03 to 06, then reintroduced in the 2009 redesign, so you're not going to find a 2008 GT.I picked up a 2008 base model for well under your budget with 26k miles on it last December. It's not the most well appointed model, as it was a previous rental, but it's still under warranty, and I got it for very cheap. Quote, originally posted by zathrak »3) Should I try and get a 2009 for the price under 16k with some miles on it or should I stick with an '08? Is there considerable differences between the models?It's a fairly large redesign, so yes, I'd say there's considerable differences. A few of our members have owned both the first generation and an 09, so they can give you some very good comparisons. From what I've read, the fit and finish of the '09s is much better, though the option packages are a bit more stratified, and the car is a bit heavier so less mileage. Quote, originally posted by zathrak »5) If GM were to sell off or close the Pontiac brand, is this still a wise option to take?I still think so. Even though the Vibe is a Pontiac product, the powertrain and a huge amount of the rest of the car is still shared with the Corolla/Matrix platform, so parts can be found from Toyota. Because 2009 had a redesign for the Vibe, I suspect we'll see it in production through at least the 2011 model year, so there should be enough parts to suffice any future needs.

I think the less mileage is an old wives' tale. My 03 AT sticker was 33 highway. My '09 sticker AT says 31 highway. I think that difference is due to a change in the way EPA calculates the mileage - not in any real difference. The difference in weight is minor - I don't have the numbers handy but I think it is less than 2%. Lack of a roof rack = less wind resistance and that might make more of a difference than the 2% more weight. The extra weight may be due to the weight of the extra airbags, abs, and stability control equipment. The EPA numbers for a similarly equipped '03 were no different. Whatever mileage hit I might take from the added weight of that safety equipment is worth it to me.

I have a 2009 AWD and have noticed that the mileage has been pretty close to the sticker (20/26 city/Hwy) so far. The AWD, like the GT's, were not produced in the 2007/2008 model year, so you would need to get and 2009/10. Since I only have 1600 miles on my 2009 vibe so far, I have been trying not to "push" it too hard before my first oil change. For this reason, the acceleration seems a little sluggish, but this could be because I tend to be light on the pedal. The 2004 vibe (FWD) I traded in for this one didn't give me any problems until a year ago when the CEL from Hell came to visit. In spite of this, I would still be driving it since I liked it so much. The deal they were offering JAN just seemed to good to pass up.

I see you found GenVibe

I can give you my 2cents on the matterOwning a 2006awd and test driving an 09 vibe with AWD for a full day. HANDS down the 09 has more pick up. After all it's got a bigger engine. Though the 03-07 awd vibes love the higher RPM range.The 09 does get pritty bad gas mileage compaired to the 03-07 awd. While most will say they get about 26-27mpg hyw with the 09's I have never gotten less than 31mpg on the highway. Infact i have come very close to 40mpg. There were lots of things I hated about the 09's compaired to my 06.like:The lack of tie down rails in the seat backs on the 09'sThe lack of a standard roof rackThe lack of an independed rear window opening separate from the hatch.The HUGE blind spot on the "c" pillar.The over done, outdated altezza tail lights.The lower MPG rating.I don't think the front passenger side seat folds flat (I can't remember, someone verify please!)The rear opening on the hatch is about 3-5inches smaller on the 09's than the 03-07'sThe things i did like about the 09The layout of the cabin.The bigger engine.The new car smell LOLThats about it though

zathrak, you can see from my moniker what I own and drive every day. One big difference from the first and second gen is easily felt in this little trick:go around a hairpin curve that is marked for 25mph at 45mph and you will clearly see the difference. If your first gen vibe does not hit the guard rail, consider yourself lucky. I have some of the best Michelins on my 03 awd with independent rear suspension. I also have the "crappy" Goodyear RS-As on the 09. I can corner with my 09 at substantial speeds whereas my 03 has significantly more body roll. The electric steering in the 09 is excellent and lets me drive the car like a maniac. Get the 09. It is a far superior car. Even my Corolla engine in the 09 is superior in gitty-up-and-go performance than the original. The only maintenance problem with the 09 so far appears to be a resonance that appears from the tranny between 60-70 mph. Since I normally don't spend much time in that speed range, I can live with it.

The 2009 base 1.8L does not have a fold down front passenger seat. It is an option in the 2010.The lower mpg ratings are not real - just a change in the way EPA tests and assigns numbers. All vehicles got lower mpg ratings starting in 2008 I believe.Overall I think the '09 is an improvement. The now standard safety features of abs 4 wheel disk brakes, multiple airbags, and stability control are a real plus.The drive by wire is fine. I would prefer the old hydraulic power steering but everyone seems to be going to electric power steering. Not a major issue.The car seems quieter. Big improvement.You get used to the blind spot.The engine is not bigger - just somehow has a few more horses.I never used the roof rack on my '03. Maybe used the fold down seat twice in 6 years.Got a smokin' deal on my '03 in Jan '03 - msrp $18,690 for $13,631 plus tax etc after dealer disc., rebates and GM Card. Got an even better deal on my '09 in Jan. '09 - msrp $19,480 for $11,917 plus tax etc. after dealer disc., rebates and GM Card.Decent resale - sold my low mileage (33m) '03 for $9,500.I would have been happy to drive my '03 for another 6 years but the numbers were too compelling to pass up the upgrade.

I was looking at the Torrent too, but didn't think I could afford feeding another V-6. Frosty replaced a 3.8L. V6 Bonneville and Neptune replaced a 3.4L. V6 Firebird. Later this year makes 3 years for both, and some of the best decisions we ever made. It feels good to reach the weekend and still have gas in the tank! Welcome to the Happy Viber Family

Thank you all for your informative responses. Really.Well it seems this has become quite problematic lol.Every sales rep I contact, I am told they will go out of the way and beyond to get the perfect vehicle...yet this never seems to happen.So if in fact there are no 2007/2008 Vibe's in a GT, I guess this means I now get to choose between an '06 GT and a '09/'10 GT...and I had little resolve to buy a new one...mostly because I'm poor lol. I don't want to have a vehicle that's older than a year or two...I think '06 is pushing it for what I was ideally looking for. I wonder, would my next option be to try and find the very few and far between *actual* used '09 GTs? Perhaps there are some "demos" or "executive" '09 GTs out there? How would I go about finding these? I don't mind a few miles...pending the price reflects them. On a piggyback attempt...AWD vs FWD. What do you prefer and why? I'm in SW Michigan...I've always had AWD and love it...but that's likely because I was compensating for a rear wheel drive Durango...is there a significant difference? Does AWD actually help? So again in summary for clarity...1) Demos? Leases? Execs? '06 vs '09 / old vs new?2) AWD vs FWD?Thanks again - this is all very helpful!

Hi,Let me start off by saying I have a 2007 vibe, sunroof, sun and moon package, auto, cruise, antilock, etc.I've got a tad over 40,000 miles on the car and I just keep liking it more and more and more.Around town and light freeway driving gives me a solid 29MPG with spikes into the low 30'sOn a trip such as I just completed I got 35.6 MPG on I 95 keeping up with traffic which means between 55 and 80 MPH all around Baltimore, DC, Richmond, etc. This wasn't just one tank full but an average of several.The space in the car in great and that is one of the reasons we purchased it. No, it's not a full sized SUV by any means but rare is the item we cannot fit into it.Troubles with the car? zero, nada, none. Just oil changes, new front brakes, and sadly new tires way too early. The stock tires lost their roundness though there was a lot of tread left, the tires were garbage.Keep in mind that the cheapest car to own is the one that you are currently driving (unless its financed to the hilt). Most often its paid for, repair costs are minimal and when you figure out how many gallons of fuel you can purchase for $16,000 it is staggering!The next cheapest car is a used car. The original buyer already took the $4000+ value hit by driving it off the lot.Not sure how many unhappy 09 Vibe owners you will find that traded the car in early. Most seem to be quite pleased with their purchase from what I read here and on other sites.Also keep in mind that the Toyota Matrix IS a Vibe once you take the sheet metal off. Don't discount used Matrix's.I cannot make comparisons to the 09 or 10's, I have zero experience with them. As mentioned the 07 and 08 only had the base model with no GT and no AWD option.Need for 4 x4 ? Not if you know how to drive in snow! The only exception is if your home is at the bottom of a long hill. Most people with AWD don't use it but occasionally. Sadly AWD enables many to get out onto a highway they should not be on because they lack the skills to drive upon hostile roads. Once an AWD gets rolling it isn't too much different from a FWD car. Brakes the same, corners basically the same, etc.My feelings are if you cannot drive a 2wd Rear Wheel drive car in snow effectively, just stay home and don't become a hazard on a snow covered highway, even if you have that super Land Rover!Front wheel drive is wonderful in snow. If you go ahead and put 4 studded tires on it will rival most AWD's out there (providing of course you KNOW how to drive in snow)Good luck with your decisionDave

This is an awesome post and lends a great deal of information to me, thank you.I love the matrix as well but the premium scares me...any ideas?Also, to everyone, any ideas as to ways to find these pie in the sky deals for the aforementioned vehicle(s)?

A good set of dedicated snow tires such as Bridgestone Blizzaks can make AWD unnecessary for most of us. Personally I'd avoid AWD in a used vehicle. It adds complexity and potential expense - but that's just my feeling. I can see how others may differ. Good luck.

I'd suggest you keep your eye open but sit tight and wait for the 10's to come out. Once that happens all of the "old" inventory comes down in price and desirability.You could locate an extremely depressed area of the Nation right now, Well, Michigan is a good place to start! and see who has high inventory and a blight of buyers. See what kind of a deal you can strike.There may be some 08 leftovers out there somewhere that have lingered unwanted due to color or options but I don't know.Dave

Quote, originally posted by zathrak » I don't want to have a vehicle that's older than a year or two...I think '06 is pushing it for what I was ideally looking for. I'd be wary of a used car within two years as the probability that there was once something wrong with the car is higher. For example, I bought a 2005 AWD in 2007 and later found out it had minor front end damage from a low speed collision above the bumper. You have to ask yourself why someone would want to get rid of a car in less than a year or two...Quote, originally posted by zathrak »1) Demos? Leases? Execs? '06 vs '09 / old vs new?These cars will last for at least 100K miles if they are maintained, so a well inspected used Vibe will be a good deal. Off-lease is more likely to be certified. Unless you plan to drive the car until it dies, new is not the best value on a cost per year basis. After a while, it's hard to tell a new car from a used car anyway. Quote, originally posted by zathrak »2) AWD vs FWD? AWD could be useful in the North, but unless the roads aren't plowed and you have to go out during a snowstorm, FWD is likely to be sufficient-- especially with snow tires.Good luck!

Where do you feel I would have luck finding leased / demo vehicles? (...assuming you feel that's the way to go?)

Don't wait too long. GM is teetering on the brink. Go drive a first gen 2008 manual 1.8L. There are actually some left-overs around, with near zero miles on the odo. I got mine for $14,508, new, sunroof, Monsoon... stickered over $20,000. Unless you're into racing little wagonoid type cars, the 2.4L grunt is just going to cost extra $$ in gas... especially since it's only available w/Auto in AWD. My Vibe averages around 36 mpg in Summer. I'm sure it will get a little better. We get plenty of snow where I live, and 4 good snow tires are all you need to get around, even in the worst of it. Most of the time, that AWD gear is just more weight that you have to lug around, without much benefit. If you have to rally drive this poor car around, install a set of Koni adjustable shocks and put a decent alloy wheel and summer tire combination on it. It will still be cheaper than the 2.4L Auto AWD, corner better and save you quite a bit of gas money. That said, the second gen 09 (non AWD) does have a better suspension set up. Those adjustable Koni shocks on the 08 would help equalize the handling. Good luck!!!!!

If/when GM goes under, wouldn't that cause a liquidation factor...thus dropping prices in the Vibe line? If I were buried in the snow, which is typical in my area...would I be able to kick it in to AWD and maneuver out of the mess or should I not count on it? Still...what can I do to find an outstanding price on a Vibe GT '09 (or equivalent)?

New vs. UsedI am probably infamous for my arguments favoring "new".Dealers are lucky if the make $300 on a new car. They make $2,000 and up on a used car.Used cars also go down in value a few thousand when you drive them off the lot. Buy it and drive it around the lock and then ask what the dealer will buy it back for. You will be amazed.A new car warranty is worth some money. The fact that you have new tires, brake linings, fluids, battery etc. that will not have to be replaced for a long while is worth some money.Interest rates on new cars are less than used cars.Unless you find a deal from a private party, used cars are IMO over priced. Just look at the CarMax no haggle prices. A little while ago GM was giving dealers money if they ordered some cars - that is how I got the last deal. I think there was as much as $2,000 in there from GM behind the scenes so to speak. I just got lucky - saw the ad on a Sat morning and was at the dealer within an hour. Their advertised price that morning for a '09 2008 base AT AC Power Pkg was $15,148 after rebates. With a GM card rebate and another coupon I got that down further but even $15,148 was a steal for a '09 Vibe with msrp of $19,480.

Teach me. I want. Seriously though, I'm still learning the ropes in all of this type of industrial research and such. Could you get a hold of me via IM/Msg or something? Thx.

Industrial research ???As I said - I just got lucky. I guess my "research" involves keeping up on what's available in the marketplace (the handful of models that I would be interested in) and knowing the costs and rebates etc, by checking edmunds.com, kbb.com, and always reading the Saturday morning car ads and then taking advantage of opportunities.When GM sent me that deal to up my $1,800 GM Card earnings to $3,000 GM Card earnings if I bought a car by Jan. 31, '09 I knew that was a window of opportunity. The advertised deal that Saturday that was $2,000 under invoice plus the $1,000 loyaty and $500 reg. rebate just made it a no brainer especially since I was confident I could sell my '03 Vibe for significantly more than what I could get on a trade in. The best time to buy a car is when you don't need a car. If you have to buy a car this week or this month your opportunities are limited.Buying a used car from a private individual can save you a couple thousand but takes time and patience. A friend of mine has used a dealer near here that will buy a car for you at auction for a $500 fee. He has bought some late model low mileage used cars for a least a couple thousand less than the prices you see at CarMax.

Yes! What Jake75 just said. If you are in a hurry to get a car, you will pay too much and possibly not get what you want. Be like a cat waiting for its prey, sit, look, listen and be ready to strike with the tail twitching back and forth (you probably don't have a tail though do you?)Never want something and have the emotional "I must get it NOW!" when you shop for a big ticket item.Start surfing the net, I've found Craigs list to be a wonderful way to locate used cars. It is virtually all private sales and while it will take time, figure out how far you are willing to travel and check all of the cities listed in that perimeter. I just found on Craigs list an old Pontiac J body convertible ( I know all about its list of troubles) that needed a head and got it super super super cheap. I wanted this style of car but wasn't desperate for one, I'd been looking about 9 months or so and when it appeared in the condition and color I desired I went and got it. (mechanical repair doesn't faze me at all, I wanted a perfect body with minimal damage, no rust at all, a good soft top and a good interior)Dave

For another set of assorted questions...1) I wonder, are there ways of reversing this whole process? For instance, what if instead of my searching hundreds of thousands of vehicles that I may or may not be looking for, I could instead make "buyer seeking" post on a database that both private sellers and dealerships could locate me, their long lost customer on. Is there such a place/mechanism?2) I am hearing a little bit about this "hefty tax credit" for those who trade in gas guzzlers for high mpg vehicles if they buy them new. Does anyone know anything about this tax credit and it's stipulations? Does the tax credit come back to you as cash after taxes are paid? What qualifies you for this? Is this something I should consider in the *new* versus *used* battle.3) I have located exactly what I want (I think)...yet I still would like to run it by this community to see what the popular choice is. In short, a dealer found a GMAC auctioned 2009 Vibe GT in my color choice fully loaded just the way I wanted for "8300 miles and a price of $17,500 plus sales tax, fee and doc prep." I am told it hasn't had any damage to it, AWD, 2.4 Auto, etc. I was sent pictures of it, looks like what I'm trying to find. The issue was that I was trying to line up a deal for later this summer, perhaps June when I could feel comfortable about my job and relocation. The fact is however, I think I found what I was looking for for the first time in several years. Is this a decent deal? Should I still consider a new one for the *new car benefits* or is the deal too good to pass up? She requires a (refundable) $250 deposit within the next day or so to "hold it" and basically get it to the lot. After that, she would be willing to set up the financing and such but she wants the app tomorrow if this is the route I wish to take. She can suspend payments for 45 days. Is there an ideal way of handling this? Is there a realistic way of handling this? I've been looking for a new vehicle for 3 years so this isn't really impulsive, and the Durango is in the process of falling apart and I just can't justify any more repairs on the things. I'll likely get a $1500 trade in on the Durango it seems ...anyhow, any thoughts?

Ref 2009 GT AWDYou want it, it's what you want, a color you want, equiped as you want, you can afford it, it's not impulsive. If you need someone to say go git it, then by all means, go get it!Will there be a better deal out there at the end of the summer? Maybe, maybe not, there is no way to know the answer to that. Life is full of little choices that may or may not be goodWhat is important is what YOU think, If you are happy with this offer then by all means life it way to short to cheat yourself out of its little joys.Dave

I heard the end of a news piece this evening with Pres Obama talking about some tax changes if you buy a new American car this year. It was something about getting back most of your state and local taxes, maybe even licensing fees. There are breaks in the system for car buyers this year. Research this. Getting a good deal on a car takes a little patience and some restraint. Once you locate the car you want to buy, make sure that you find out what the dealer paid for it. It helps to work on a price from that level. Right now there are a bunch of incentives and give-backs and even really looowww interest rates. Sales guys try to hook you on emotional connection to the car you want. They know you really want that car and will try to sell it to you on their terms. It's your job to find out what he can really sell it for. He is not going to give it to you and take a loss. They have to make some profit on the sale or they go out of business. (That's possibly happening anyway, but for a whole other set of reasons.) Sometimes you need to have the discipline to walk away. Some dealerships hold out on their price and won't budge, so go cross shop another dealership if you have to. I've been stopped at the door of my car, just before I left the lot, after failing to make a deal on a car. We were close and the deal was finally made. You just have to be willing to negotiate a bit. Sometimes it takes an hour, and sometimes it takes a week. Sometimes you walk out. Making a decision on a new car, finding out a reasonable price you are willing to pay, and making sure you don't get ripped off is always a good plan. It's a process, and if you do your homework well, it should yield a new car and a happy driver. I just hope you are ready to feed that little 2.4L engine.

zathrak, if you are definitely going to get a GT, then you are definitely going to get a Camry engine with the '09. Great engine; sucky gas mileage. The engine will be a big difference between the first generation and the second generation. Gas will go back up to at least $3 a gallon. Are you willing to live with 21mpg in town at that price of gas? Also, AWD is useless in at least 40 states. Front wheel drive will get you through nearly every situation, and now that the 09 has stability and traction control standard, it makes AWD that much more useless. Choose wisely my friend.

Very interesting points...do they make 09 GT's in FWD? And for the purpose of asking, what are the 10 states that AWD isn't useless in? (...really...)

Hi, Actually looking at Pontiac's web sitehttp://www.pontiac.comThe AWD is not available as a GT and the GT is not listing AWD as an option. I think you've been misinformed about the located AWD GT. Both have the larger engine that some say gives great fuel mileage and others have complained about the poor fuel mileage! I guess its all your perspective of good fuel mileage. Under 30 to me sucks big time.You're at 20 grand for the base GT. 20,425 with an auto.Base AWD is 19,600 , this is missing most options.I agree, AWD is a waste of money for the average person but it has been media hyped so much over the past decade that people now consider it almost a must have. Very few are the people who NEED AWD or 4WD for that matter.

If I really thought I needed AWD I think I would be looking at a Subaru.

10 states where the snow is significant throughout a majority of a state that would require AWD: Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and I'll throw in Colorado for good measure. Sorry Idaho and South Dakota, and Pennsylvania!!

Don't tell a Rally driver that AWD doesn't help out the average driver! You're right about the media hype and AWD. I just saw a tv commercial that pretty much would make you feel pretty insecure driving your non AWD car in a rain shower. Please, spare me. Very few drivers in northern states (or even Canada), excepting those with absolutely no skill and running completely worn tires, would gain much with 4 wheel drive or an AWD system. If the snow got deep enough, most cars like our Vibes, wouldn't have the clearance to do much more than getting high centered by the accumulation of snow under the car. If you live where snow is a big issue... get a good set of snow tires. If it gets really icy where you drive, buy a good set of studded snow tires. In the long run, you'll save serious $$ on gas and repairs. Your car will also ride better without the added weight of an AWD system. I know that AWD fans are going to be upset with this, but unless I were going to do a lot of off road travel, take up rally car racing, or live on a glacier, I would not opt for this type of system for my car. And I have to drive to work at times when the snow plow drivers are still sleeping in on weekends and a foot of snow has covered the road. Not just here in Maine, but also for 11 years in northwest Montana. Have yet to miss a day of work because the snow stopped me. Another little detail: I would have a tough time buying a small car like the Vibe, if it only got fuel mileage numbers in the 20s. That's small SUV and small truck range. I wish gas prices would stay low, but they are already sneaking up above 2 bucks, and it's not even close to the 'summer driving season'. So watch out, and try to price that in to your budget calculations.

Well I do happen to live in Michigan and I am very familiar with driving thru at least a foot of snow throughout the middle of winter...is the Vibe a bad choice for this?You all bring up very good and beneficial points for me. I have been on the fence with regards to AWD vs FWD forever! Vibolista, your point is a great one. Above average snow tires to replace AWD is a good alternative...

Yeah, I lived in NE Pennsylvania for 15 years before moving to NJ. We got a lot of snow and I lived at the bottom of a dead end dirt road, last house on it. I got out almost everyday, never had a 4x4 car or truck. I did run studded snows and my cars were almost always FWD. I used to stop on the plowed State highways and help out people who "fell" off the side of the road in their big fancy 4x4's!!!! I was in my rear wheel drive Ford Ranger Work Pickup!! It's not what you drive, it's if you know how to drive it.In the later years I did get a 4x4 S10 which I still have that had a snow plow and I plowed out the neighborhood. For THAT task you really do NEED 4x4!Dave

Quote, originally posted by zathrak »Well I do happen to live in Michigan and I am very familiar with driving thru at least a foot of snow throughout the middle of winter...is the Vibe a bad choice for this?The Vibe handles snow as well as any car with this kind of limited ground clearance. I run a slightly taller snow tire size than OEM for that tiny bit of advantage. Any ride height gain is gold in deep snow, especially the wet Spring snow we often get late in the season. Good to hear that I'm not the only one that doesn't have trouble with FWD and good snow tires in winter!

So it seems that the logical way to handle the AWD vs FWD topic is to save on MPG and body weight with FWD, and compensate the AWD loss with above average snow tires.I also highly agree that the clearance makes all the difference...which in a way makes me sad coming from a Durango. Is there any good way to gain more clearance than what a Vibe is normally equipped with that doesn't gain significant body roll (like a Durango) or am I fighting a losing battle? I also like to know about the snow tire = clearance possibilities...I would assume a "bigger" tire that merits a larger clearance, even if slightly, also decreases the size of the tire to the wheel well. Lista, do you experience the packed in snow issue between the car and the tires moreso than normal in this instance?

aha, now we're puting the mob mentality into your head. Dump the AWD. Save the environment and your wallet. FWD is more than sufficient, and if you decide on the '09, you'll have that many more safety features as well. Let Subaru drivers buy the AWDs. They have no clue on why they are buying it other than the commercials telling them to do so. Kinda like the worst drivers in the world going out and buying Volvos. Some how the commercial tells them that it will make them a better driver. Good luck there!!

Quote, originally posted by zathrak »I also highly agree that the clearance makes all the difference...which in a way makes me sad coming from a Durango. Is there any good way to gain more clearance than what a Vibe is normally equipped with that doesn't gain significant body roll (like a Durango) or am I fighting a losing battle? I also like to know about the snow tire = clearance possibilities...I would assume a "bigger" tire that merits a larger clearance, even if slightly, also decreases the size of the tire to the wheel well. Lista, do you experience the packed in snow issue between the car and the tires moreso than normal in this instance? Good questions. Snow tire sidewalls are generally softer than a low profile summers. They do build high performance snow tires that will come close to a summer tire's stiffer sidewall, but these are usually low profile, so you are back to ground clearance problems. To keep the mushy feeling from the snow tires to a minimum, I keep inflation pressure up a notch or two. It also tends to improve MPG. If serious snow is forecast, I lower the pressures to normal levels for max traction.Snow gets stuck in the well, but have had no problems with clearances so far. I worried about that, too, but there's quite a bit of room in the Vibe's wheel well. Someone in this forum put a 225/60 16 tire to raise his first generation Vibe... and he said it never interfered, even in the rough driving environment he had to deal with. I did the same basic thing with a '99 Saturn wagon (SW2) that my Vibe replaced. The Saturn was really low to the ground, so my snows ended up quite a bit taller than the summer tires, leaving even less wheel well room. But again, it was a non issue all the Winters I drove it.