GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

Hello. I just bought a Vibe GT a few weeks ago. I've done a decent amount of research, but haven't found much in the way of use of synthetics on the 2zz engine. The owner's manual says the car is broken in after 500 miles, but I hear from many that the car won't be broken in until around 10,000 miles. Here's where my question comes in... Should I wait until 10,000 miles to do my 1st synthetic oil change? I am planning on doing my first ever oil change around 1500 miles to get most of the break-in harsh particles out of the engine. I was considering putting synthetic after that, but I'm not sure. I've heard people have had problems putting synthetic in too early due to the engine components not being seated properly and such. Also, which synthetic do you guys recommend?? I was thinking either Royal Purple, Amsoil, or Redline... And, what oil change intervals to be 110% safe?? I do probably 75% highway and 25% city driving...so, I was thinking around a 7500 mile change interval. Any advice would be appreciated... Thanks.

I'm not sure, but I think I there might be someone on the forum who likes AMSoil. I'm only at 1,200 miles, so I haven't had to make a selection yet. The old timers used to say that once you chose your brand that you should stick with it for life because of the "additives". Perhaps someone could comment on that approach.

That's similar to what I've heard: Once you go synthetic, you can never go back to regular...I think it's because at colder temperatures, synthetic's viscosity stays thinner, and can cause leaks and such...at least that's what I've heard.

here is my opionion:I changed my oil at 500 and 1000 miles to get rid off the particles thing you mentioned. I looked at the oil (at 500 miles), it had metal shinning particles in it. I would change again at 3000 miles, that's when I would change over to synthetic, and change every 5000 miles after that. today's oil is a LOT better than the old oil days. I am changing over to synthetic just for piece of mind, plus (most importantly) it costs very little at Walmart (whiere I change oil), it is only $26 or so. Walmart also uses only Frame oil filter, which is rated the best by consumer reports.again at consumer reports said it is perfectly okay to change oil at 7500 miles, and this was tested on N.Y taxis (which is definetely runs hard). and in U.S. here, attornery general went after all these oil additive company for false claims.also today's engine do not require 10,000 miles break-in. 500 miles is what most manufacturer recommends.so here it is:1. Consumer Reports said okay to change at 7,500 miles, so I am changing at 5000 miles with synthetic to be safe.2. manufacturer says a 500 miles break-in, but I would play it safe and say 2000 miles.MANY will disagree with me, as this is one of most heated issue. many will tell you what oil they use, and the car lasts 150,000 miles. But believe me, even changing oil at 7,500 miles, Toyota engine will last more than 250,000 miles in my experience. everything else will fall off the car first before a Toyota engine need a rebuild.Most of today's oil are of quality. I just don't think oil matter that much any more in regular drivings.

I recommended you use conventional oil until 1,000 miles. 1,000 miles is plenty of time for a engine to break in. The manufacturer is very correct though at 500 your engine is well seated together though. What they don't tell you is after the engine is made and installed into the car they start it up, let it idle for a few minutes and then hammer it redlining for about a full minute. If the engine stays together (and it normally does) then it's put through a few more final tests and then shipped to your dealer. So I'd personally recommend changing your conventional oil at 500 miles then again at 1,000. As the engine is being broken in you will end up with small metal shaving and different micron size particles floating around in your oil. Yes some cars come factory fill with synthetic but I'd change the oil at 500 and again at 1,000 because of the break in process.Ok at 1,000 miles you can then switch to whatever oil your going to use for the life of your vehicle. Everyone knows what I use and tell people about so enough on that. The mileage you can go between oil change depends on the oil you use. Conventional oil you'll be ok to 3,000 miles normally, but I don't trust the stuff. Mobile is a good oil and can be safely taken to around 5,000 to 6,000 miles or maybe 5 or 6 months. This is a guess only.Now if you want the best, save money while using and interested in a extended drain oil, then AMSOIL hands down should be what you use. I'm currently using Series 2000 0W-30 and this will be what I use for the entire time I own my vehicle. It's recommended for 35,000 miles or 1 year of service. Yes this has been backed up by oil analysis and independent lab testing.Your going to be wanting to use a good filter I'd hope. You can put the best oil in a engine but if the filter isn't filtering as much as could be filtered your ruining your good oil you just put in.Amsoil Heavy Duty filters filter in the 5 to 10 micron range. Most oil filters you purchase at a parts store are in the range of 25 microns. This means over a few thousand miles you'll end up with about 25 to 30 microns gap in your bearings. I'd rather only have the 5 to 10 personally.Amsoil Super Duty filters are recommended for 12,500 miles or 6 months service.If you have any questions have a look at my website. I just recently got everything up and running and it's full of some amazing testing results against other oil company's.

I used to run a fleet of vehicles for a construction company. I sort of have an education in oil technology (mostly tier 2 emmission diesel). Oils only job used to be to lubricate, still is the main priority. The additives are the detergents to clean an engine, or prevent it from getting dirty. Don't fall for the " you need extra treatment because your oil is dirty". All oils that meent the api rating in your book will do the job correct. Just use the correct catergory in your manual for the interval.I have used Valvoline oil because I have seen the results. My first car needed valve cover gaskets when I got it. the whole valve train was covered with sludge. I changed my oil every 2.000 miles after that. A year later the timing chain broke and I had to remove the heads. The valve train was completly cleaned up. I currently use Valvoline Durablend, I feel it is a good mix and will not breakdown in 7500mi.One who is into testing can pick up an oil sample test kit at your local John Deere dealer (I currently work at one). For around 12 bucks you can grab a sample of your oil when you change it,and mail it in. It goes to an independent lab. When you get the result you may be able to decipher them, but they always give a simple recommendation. They also highlight any levels that are abnormal or critical Part # (AT180333) At my last job I used oil sampling to prove to my boss that doubling the drain interval was safe with the oil we were using.With a 100+ truck fleet at $100 per change that translates into a chunk of change.remember " Test first, Extend later"Ps- changing viscosity or type should not cause a problem with seals. If you car leaks at all it is a bad seal or gasket, end of story.

Good info you posted. Glad to have another new member at genvibe.com.Amsoil has been tested against Valvoline. The test results are near the bottom of the page.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... /Dyno_test

but isn't the Valvoline a non-synthetic oil, which is being compared against Amsoil Synthetic, thus Amsoil definetely performs better

Not taking anything away from Valvoline or Amsoil, I have used Mobil 1 in both my Prelude and Vette (it's factory fill in the Vette) and have had great success. Since the factory recommends it for my Vette, that's what she's going to have.Concerning the Vibe, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. If I go conventional oil, I've always liked Castrol, and I will change at 3k miles no matter what. If I got synthetic, with my highway driving, I'll probably extend to 5,000 miles or so. Here's the problem with the Vibe, no matter how good of oil you put in it, THE FILTER. It's small and once the filter starts bypassing because it's full of crap, the oil will start getting particles in it that can damage the motor. I can't believe how small the oil filter is...So, even if you run synthetic, I think the limiting factor is going to be the oil filter. That's probably the main reason, I'm just going to stick with Castrol and change every 3k miles. The car hold nearly 5 quarts of oil. For a 1.8L motor, that's an impressive oil capacity, so unless you're flatout roadracing it redlining over and over again over 30 minute intervals constantly, your oil shouldn't overheat and breakdown.

I'm going to use Castrol GTX 5w30 at a 4,000 mile change interval. All city driving with a 12 mile trip. Winters are cold here.I use Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 in the Golf with 10,000 mile changes.I use Mobil 1 10w30 in the camaro and change the oil each spring before I start the car. Usually 3-5K miles on the oil.http://WWW.Bobistheoilguy.comVisit the forum...Jason

Here's a test where AMSOIL is tested against the new Mobil 1.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... l_1_testIf your worried about the filter AMSOIL Super Duty filters are hands down the best spin on filters you can buy.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... _filtersIf you want the best of the best and never do oil changes again the a AMSOIL bypass filter will work better than anything available.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... ss_filters

That is a very good point about the oil filters. Oil has gotten so good these days, the filter is acutally the weaker link. one question:the better the oil filter is, won't it trap more dirt, thus clog up faster, thus shorter life?

That is a very good point. AMSOIL filters have been independently tested and are rated for 12,500 miles and or 6 months service. Amsoil has a tech line that anyone is welcome to use and ask questions directly to AMSOIL INC. They are normally very good at getting back to you with in a day or 2.http://www.amsoil.com/techservices.htm

Things used to be so much simpler: Go to K-Mart, buy the AC/Delco filter and a Case of Penzoil (or other favorite brand) and you could feel comfortable knowing you were doing the best you could for your engine. Now, so many choices! Food for thought: If you chose premium oils and filters (like I will), and you extend the life of your engine to say, 250,000 miles but the rest of the car still falls apart at say, 125,000 miles, have you really gained anything? I've chosen numbers out a "hat" here to illustrate my reasoning. My operations research background is calling for a cost / benefit analysis here....

Here is your cost benefit analysis. 25,000 Mile Cost Analysis :* AMSOIL10W-30 25,000-mil. (1 Change 6qts. $4.95/qt ) : $29.70* Conventional 10W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts.) $37.50* Synthetic A 10W-30 10,000-mil. ( 2.5 Changes 12.5 qts. $7.25/qt.) $90.63* Synthetic B 5W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts. $3.69/qt ) $92.25* Synthetic C 10W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts. $4.19/qt ) $104.75Amsoil saves you money over everything else when doing there extended oil drains.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... HT_NOW.htm

I agree with bellwiliam, Amsoil is not comparing apples to apples. It makes me skeptical when a company does comparisons like this. I strongly suggest testing your oil yourself. Prove to your self that you can extend the drain that far.If the manual says you can go 7500 mi, you can.Use OEM (Toyota/Goodwrench), thats what they make thier recommendations on.Be careful with "superior " filtration.Hitachi has a hydraulic filter made for cleaning systems after a catastrophic failure, an engineer told me if you run it too long at a high rpm it can actually start pulling out additives!! When it comes to oils, I have found that all the top brands compete at the same level. It all comes down to personal opinion.

Why does Amsoil use independent distributors instead of selling through a more mainstream channel like Autozone, Walmart, etc.? I think Amsoil would garner a bit more legitimacy if it was sold alongside Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, etc. on the shelves.

TO THE RESCUE!!!!!

quote:Here is your cost benefit analysis. 25,000 Mile Cost Analysis :* AMSOIL10W-30 25,000-mil. (1 Change 6qts. $4.95/qt ) : $29.70* Conventional 10W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts.) $37.50http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_synthet ... T_NOW.htmI would rather do 5 oil changes with 5000 miles intervals.I would say this again, I agree with the above post. You are talking about a Toyota engine, they would last 250,000 miles (250,000 miles is on the low end of all Toyota's I've seen) easy w/o any of your extra help. the car will fall apart way before the engine.

This is why AMSOIL uses dealers.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... ores.htmSo if 25,000 mile oil changes aren't possible how is it that the major semi truck manufacturer are getting 50,000 miles from one oil change!!!! Yes that's right. 50,000 miles, yet we all still do 3,000 mile oil changes because the big oil companys don't want you to extend your oil changes because they'd lose so much money.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... .htmAMSOIL has been proven time and time again that they are the best. Every other oil company in the world was given the chance to object when AMSOIL applied for trademark rights to "The First in Synthetics", yet after 90 days of waiting, not a single one objected! The U.S. Patent and Trademark Officials stated that by claiming that AMSOIL was the first historically, that AMSOIL was also insinuating to be the best (or #1/first) from a quality or performance standpoint. AMSOIL showed the government officials comparison documentation and test data backing up the claim that AMSOIL was also the best.After the government officials notified all other oil manufacturers that AMSOIL was claiming to be the best, not a single other oil company or competitor objected! Not a peep from any of them! I can guarantee you that if any of these competitors and major oil companies had a product better than AMSOIL they would have objected.Amsoil has been tested against the best and been shown to be the best. Here is a test against the new Mobile 1http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_synthet ... il_1_testI don't have info on the filtration system that you spoke of that actually pulls additive out of the oil but I do on AMSOIL bypass system and it's one of the best in the world. No it does not pull and trap additives that are in the oil.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... ss_filters

A word of caution on high efficiency filters. It may not be better to have a filter that filters down to say 5 microns. It will naturally be more restrictive than a filter that filters to 15 microns and will go into by-pass mode more often. I have seen many oil analysis results that showed junk filters that flow well showing better wear numbers over the course of the drain interval. If you drive like a grandma and only start your car when the oil is warm, then a high efficiency filter is the way to go. You would never go into bypass and you would filter all the small particles.If you do some research you will see that as the particle size increases the wear produced increases exponentially. If you catch particles of 20 microns and up you will be doing just fine IMO, and even better than catching particles of 5 microns only 60% of the time because the filter is too restrictive and goes into by-pass too often...For this application I am going to use the OEM filter.Jason

Engine wear is caused by dirt particles larger than 5 microns. The AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filter removes particles as small as 1/10 of a micron, virtually eliminating engine wear. AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filters filter all the oil in a six-quart system in about five minutes at an average engine speed equivalent to 45 mph.The AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filter provides the best possible filtration protection against wear, oil degradation, rust and corrosion. Working in conjunction with the engine’s full-flow oil filter, the AMSOIL By-Pass Filter operates by filtering oil on a "partial-flow" basis. It draws approximately ten percent of the oil at any one time and traps the extremely small, wear-causing contaminants and water that full-flow filters can’t remove. The AMSOIL By-Pass Filter typically filters all the oil in the system several times an hour, so the engine continuously receives analytically clean oil.Because the AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filter removes water and particles smaller than one micron, it significantly increases the time oil can safely be left in the engine. In fact , engines using AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil and an AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filter routinely show much lower rates of engine wear - even when the oil is used for significantly longer drain intervals - than engines using conventional products and conventional oil drain intervals. That saves motorists time and money and helps protect the environment by creating substantially less used oil.As you can see AMSOIL bypass filtration systems don't have this problem. If anyone is concerned with how the bypass system works your welcome to contact me or contact AMSOIL techs directly at AMSOIL INC using the link below.http://www.amsoil.com/techservices.htm

Yes, I should have been more clear in my previous post. By-pass filters are a different story. I was talking about high efficiancy full pass filters that are options for the filters used as original equipment.Jason

"The AMSOIL By-Pass Oil Filter removes particles as small as 1/10 of a micron, virtually eliminating engine wear. "1/10 of a micron? For sake of comparison, analytical grade laboratory water for the highest quality scientific research has a final filter size of 0.2 microns ( 1/5 ). http://www.mbcoct.com/barnstead/90372.htm this is the size of a small bacteria or virus. 1/10, that is 0.01 microns is getting very close to the molecular level!A word on filtration: A dirty filter will remove smaller particles than a clean filter. It is a common engineering principle in separation technology. The longer a filter stays in service, the better the removal efficiency you will get. Obviously, there is a limit, when the head loss becomes great enough for the filter to begin bypassing. So, one of the questions begged in this discussion is the capacity of various filters, OEM or otherwise, to capture the POC's (products of combustion) and engine wear particles and the rate at which those products are produced. Having done research quality analytical chemistry, I have a strong skepticism toward any analysis done by a professional lab. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a lab these days (and the time!!) to do my own analysis, so I'm left to my better judgement. My better judgement tells me there probably isn't really that much difference in the high quality synthetics. I'll pick the best oil I can and the best filter. I WON'T be running out to the extreme mileage limits of the brand. For the savings of a few bucks worth of oil, its not worth risking any engine damage to my "beloved" Vibe.

quote:I'll pick the best oil I can and the best filter. I WON'T be running out to the extreme mileage limits of the brand. For the savings of a few bucks worth of oil, its not worth risking any engine damage to my "beloved" Vibe.Then hands down the winner would be AMSOIL. I make this suggestion. Some one find me prove REAL PROVE that AMSOIL doesn't do what they say. You'll be hard pressed to find real prove AMSOIL doesn't do what they say because if this prove was out there other oil company's would be sueing the pants off AMSOIL and the people like myself doing the extended oil drains would be destroying there vehicles and sueing AMSOIL for that. It hasn't happened.A. J. Amatuzio, President and CEO. has made this statement several times to anyone and everyone in this industry. No one ever responds.quote:AMSOIL - "Our Company makes the Best Lubricants in the world, period, and challenges anyone or any company to prove us wrong! That won't happen because our competitors know it's true."This was pretty much backed up when AMSOIL applied for the rights to say "The First in Synthetics"AMSOIL is "The First in Synthetics" and also the first in quality, protection and performance. Every other oil company in the world was given the chance to object when AMSOIL applied for trademark rights to "The First in Synthetics", yet after 90 days of waiting, not a single one objected! The U.S. Patent and Trademark Officials stated that by claiming that AMSOIL was the first historically, that AMSOIL was also insinuating to be the best (or #1/first) from a quality or performance standpoint. AMSOIL showed the government officials comparison documentation and test data backing up the claim that AMSOIL was also the best.After the government officials notified all other oil manufacturers that AMSOIL was claiming to be the best, not a single other oil company or competitor objected! Not a peep from any of them! I can guarantee you that if any of these competitors and major oil companies had a product better than AMSOIL they would have objected.quote:Yes, I should have been more clear in my previous post. By-pass filters are a different story. I was talking about high efficiancy full pass filters that are options for the filters used as original equipment.This makes sense. I thought you were talking about the larger bypass filter and that's what was confusing me. Amsoil Super Duty spin on filters filter in the range of 5 to 10 microns. Of course they can't trap water. A bypass filtration system would need to be installed to do that, but I have never seen any other spin on filter beat AMSOIL Super Duty filters.

quote:Here is your cost benefit analysis. 25,000 Mile Cost Analysis :* AMSOIL10W-30 25,000-mil. (1 Change 6qts. $4.95/qt ) : $29.70* Conventional 10W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts.) $37.50* Synthetic A 10W-30 10,000-mil. ( 2.5 Changes 12.5 qts. $7.25/qt.) $90.63* Synthetic B 5W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts. $3.69/qt ) $92.25* Synthetic C 10W-30 5,000-mil. ( 5 Changes 25 qts. $4.19/qt ) $104.75I'm seeing a price of $5.85 / qt on the amsoil web page, not including shipping.....

I apologize the 10W-30 is $5.85. I need to change the price on that price comparison. The conventional oil I have pieced is also very cheap. Anyone using conventional is probably paying $1.70 to $2.00. If your a preferred customer your price would be $4.55 for 10W-30.This oil is recommended for 25,000 miles or one year of service.If you talking about the SAE 10W-30 XL-7500 Synthetic Motor Oil it runs $5.20 or if your a preferred customer it'll run you $3.95. This oil is recommended for 7,500 miles or 6 months of service.

quote:I apologize the 10W-30 is $5.85. I need to change the price on that price comparison. The conventional oil I have pieced is also very cheap. Anyone using conventional is probably paying $1.70 to $2.00. If your a preferred customer your price would be $4.55 for 10W-30.This oil is recommended for 25,000 miles or one year of service.If you talking about the SAE 10W-30 XL-7500 Synthetic Motor Oil it runs $5.20 or if your a preferred customer it'll run you $3.95. This oil is recommended for 7,500 miles or 6 months of service.And how can we become a "preferred" customer???

Ok, just to ad my $.02. Not that long ago I was watching show on History Channel about importance of strategic boming in WW II. And guess what Admin II, the guy said: On such and such day Allies successfuly destroyed German rafinery which was producing synthetic oils... Wow, where was your AMSOil then? Another cool fact that I hear watching WW II shows, it that Germans used synthetic lubricants on russian front due to the extreme cold.Now, having said that (NOTE: I'm not sure when exactly AMSOil appeared on market and REALLY NOT KNOWING if the German's products WERE FULL SYNTHETICS) it appears that AMSOil WAS NOT THE FIRST ONE.Next, if AMSOil is SOO GOOD, how come Mobil 1 is used in Abrams tanks in Desert Storm and how come it's used in space shuttles?Just my $.02P.S. I had a 2000 Acura 3.2 TL and I changed my oil every 8,000 to 10,000 miles. At 50,000 miles I did full engine check out and my Acura mechanic said to me: There is nothing like Mobil 1...

AMSOIL was started in 1972 by a U.S. Fighter pilot who still to this day runs AMSOIL INC. This is how AMSOIL was started.quote:During Lieutenant Colonel Al Amatuzio's 25 years as an award-winning jet fighter pilot, he gained a solid appreciation for the extraordinary lubricants that protected the engines of the jets he flew. He knew that only these lubricants, synthetic lubricants, could stand up to the demanding operating conditions of jet engines and the severe temperature extremes they encounter. He knew also that the same outstanding performance benefits synthetic lubricants provide for jet engines would prove invaluable to car, truck and other internal combustion engines.In the mid-1960s, Al Amatuzio began an intense period of research and development. He assembled the industry's most knowledgeable chemists and directed the formulation of the first synthetic motor oil in the world to meet American Petroleum Institute service requirements.The introduction of AMSOIL synthetic motor oil in 1972 set all-new standards for motor oil quality. AMSOIL synthetic motor oil outperformed conventional petroleum motor oils on all counts. It was clear from the start that this innovative product would play a major role in engine performance and engine life.Today, virtually every other motor oil manufacturer has recognized the superiority of synthetic lubricants and has followed the AMSOIL lead with introductions of synthetic motor oils of their own. They spend millions of dollars advertising their "new" and "revolutionary" products. No one, however, can match AMSOIL experience and technological know-how. And no one delivers products like AMSOIL. Accept no substitutes -- AMSOIL is "The First in Synthetics."Here is some more info on how AMSOIL got it's start.http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1179.pdfClick Here to learn how to become a preferred customer and save money when purchasing AMSOIL products.Your right about Mobil1 There is nothing like it. It's a good oil but it's not the best. AMSOIL has been independently tested against Mobile 1 and beat it. If this info was false Mobil was sue the pants off AMSOIL for false advertising, yet no law suits ever happen because they can't argue with the results.AMSOIL vs Mobil 1

quote:Here's a test where AMSOIL is tested against the new Mobil 1.http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... bil_1.htmI finally visited the AMSoil web site and have a few comments. The numbers reported are better for AMSoil in all categories. Whether they really translate into a difference in engine longevity, and whether that difference will be relevant, is not shown. By way of analogy, if a Vibe Base takes 87 Octane fuel, are you any better off for using 89 or higher? Now for some comments on their charts and graphs....The scales on the charts are somewhat inflated. Example: The pour point chart makes it look like AMS is "twice as good" as Mobil, where if a different base point such as 0 C, the difference is only 6%. The charts would be more informative if they had mineral oil shown for a baseline comparison. It may be that both synthetics are so much more superior to the dino juice that the difference between Mobil and AMsoil is in reality minor. quote:AMSOIL filters have been independently tested and are rated for 12,500 miles and or 6 months service. If I put oil good for 25,000 miles / 1Yr into a car with a filter good for 12.5/ 6 months, I've lost 1/2 the benefit. Most people drive 12-15K / year, so the 25K benefit is lost for most drivers.quote:After the government officials notified all other oil manufacturers that AMSOIL was claiming to be the best, not a single other oil company or competitor objected! Not a peep from any of them! I can guarantee you that if any of these competitors and major oil companies had a product better than AMSOIL they would have objected.Not necessarily. Mounting a challenge would require resources such as lawyers, lab tests etc. Its possible that "Big Oil" estimated the sales that could be lost to AMS due to these claims, and determined it really wasn't worth what it would cost. quote:A. J. Amatuzio, President and CEO. has made this statement several times to anyone and everyone in this industry. No one ever responds.CEO's say a LOT of things! LOL! quote: Some one find me prove REAL PROVE that AMSOIL doesn't do what they say. You'll be hard pressed to find real prove AMSOIL doesn't do what they say because if this prove was out there other oil company's would be sueing the pants off AMSOIL and the people like myself doing the extended oil drains would be destroying there vehicles and sueing AMSOIL for that. It hasn't happened.The burden of proof is on the person making the claim of superiority. I see the data from "an independent lab", but I don't find their name listed. Without such, I can't convince myself the data on the web site is true or complete. I'm not saying it isn't, but great claims require great proof. I personally would feel more comfortable seeing a report from a University or academic intitution ( a good one, like Purdue ) . To bring this all to a conclusion, I'm not saying any of AMS claims are false or the product is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I AM saying, is that when looked at critically, the iron clad proof simply hasn't been presented.

Ok I'll answer your questions in the order you asked them.quote:I finally visited the AMSoil web site and have a few comments. The numbers reported are better for AMSoil in all categories. Whether they really translate into a difference in engine longevity, and whether that difference will be relevant, is not shown. By way of analogy, if a Vibe Base takes 87 Octane fuel, are you any better off for using 89 or higher? Would AMSOIL translate into a difference in engine longevity? Yes. I have shown several field tests that have shown engines of all makes and models going well over 300,000 miles. Most have been well over this mileage. I have personally never seen any other field test done by anyone that has been able to produce similar results.By way of analogy, if a Vibe Base takes 87 Octane fuel, are you any better off for using 89 or higher?Fuel and oil are two totally different subjects of conversation and are totally different in when it comes to how a engine reacts to each. Theyhave no bearing in this conversation.quote:Now for some comments on their charts and graphs....The scales on the charts are somewhat inflated. Example: The pour point chart makes it look like AMS is "twice as good" as Mobil, where if a different base point such as 0 C, the difference is only 6%. The charts would be more informative if they had mineral oil shown for a baseline comparison. It may be that both synthetics are so much more superior to the dino juice that the difference between Mobil and AMsoil is in reality minor.6% is better than no 0%. For our friends in Canada a 6% better pour point could mean the difference between getting a engine started and being stranded somewhere.For any one in a extremely hot area or hard driving, could mean they have 6% better protection over Mobil 1. I like having the 6%.If you look at the ash content of oil which is extremely important because the more ash a oil has in it the more likely it will be to cause engine deposits. AMSOIL is all ways with in very low and beats Mobil 1 in this category as well. My engine will be cleaner using Amsoil over Mobil 1.AMSOIL will save you money. It has been shown to increase fuel economy. Even a 1% gas mileage increase will be around $70 saving in 25,000 miles. Mobil 1 doesn't talk about fuel mileage increases.quote:If I put oil good for 25,000 miles / 1Yr into a car with a filter good for 12.5/ 6 months, I've lost 1/2 the benefit. Most people drive 12-15K / year, so the 25K benefit is lost for most drivers.If your using conventional no matter how many miles you drive your suppose to change it every 3 months. That's 4 times compared to once over AMSOIL. Mobile 1 doesn't recommend extended oil drains so your still back to 3,000 or 5,000 mile oil changes again. This is what we are trying to get away from, meaning your once again spending more of your money and not saving it.If your that concerned about driving 25,000 miles a year (realize most don't including myself) AMSOIL makes a 7,500 mile oil that's cheaper than the top end products.quote:Not necessarily. Mounting a challenge would require resources such as lawyers, lab tests etc. Its possible that "Big Oil" estimated the sales that could be lost to AMS due to these claims, and determined it really wasn't worth what it would cost.The larger oil company's have lawyers that work for them on a daily basis. Going to court would effect there company one way or another money wise lawyer fees wise. Every oil company tests their products and have hundreds if not thousands of pages of documentation to show what there products can and can't do.It would have been nothing for them to send this info in like AMSOIL did. No company is going to allow another company to show data showing a product is better than theirs unless it was true and they can't prove it wasn't. If AMSOIL claims were false they couldn't use competitors names in there graphs. They would be sued and passably lose there business because of it.AMSoil has never been even been taken to court. Do some research and see if you can find one instances where AMSOIL was sued. Also the BBB also has never had anything bad reported to them about AMSOIL.quote:The burden of proof is on the person making the claim of superiority. I see the data from "an independent lab", but I don't find their name listed. Without such, I can't convince myself the data on the web site is true or complete. I'm not saying it isn't, but great claims require great proof. I personally would feel more comfortable seeing a report from a University or academic institution ( a good one, like Purdue ).I will request all the independent lay testing info I can get and then post back once I have received it. Please give me a few days to get this info.

This has been a fun and educational thread! I spent a lot of time trolling the web for other studies, reports, opinions, etc.When this thread has cooled off, I might start one up with some of what I saw about filters.

Start the thread about filters. I love these kind of posts.Ok here is AMSOIL's response to my question asking for the lab info. This makes alot of sense when you think about it.quote:The answer to this is really pretty simple. We don’t release the names of our vendors for confidentiality reasons. This includes outside testing facilities. This is not information customers really need. Many of these companies don’t have customer service departments to field requests from prospective AMSOIL customers. The fact is that these are ASTM certified tests and it doesn’t matter who ran them. Any facility with the ASTM test devices can duplicate them. If the test results we publish are doubted, the customers may certainly take a sample of the product to the lab of their choice and have the tests run for themselves. The FTC takes a very dim view of false advertising, and deals harshly with offenders.

hehe...that Acura 3.2 engine is a silky dream!!! i love that thing...seems to run like silk flows in a breeze.....ahhh!!sorry...a little of subject....but i had to comment-Phil

My mechanic had an early 1980 Toyota pickup, he had over 500,000 miles on it. had a head job 2 months ago.guess what oil he uses? conventional 10/40w every 3000 miles.the truck is still going strong!! I have had 3 cars (all Japanese) in my family that lasted over 200,000 miles. In all 3 cars, everything fell apart before the engine did. So my point is just change your oil often, and don't worry too much about synthetic or not !!

quote:My mechanic had an early 1980 Toyota pickup, he had over 500,000 miles on it. had a head job 2 months ago.guess what oil he uses? conventional 10/40w every 3000 miles.the truck is still going strong!! I have had 3 cars (all Japanese) in my family that lasted over 200,000 miles. In all 3 cars, everything fell apart before the engine did. So my point is just change your oil often, and don't worry too much about synthetic or not !!I agree that if you change your oil every 3,000 miles religiously you can use most any oil and your engine should outlast the car as long as you take care of it (tune-ups, air filter, etc)However, a lot of people don't like climbing underneath their car every month if they drive a lot, or paying more money then necessary for someone else to change it. Another benefit of extended drain intervals is the impact on the environment. If you wanted to be conservative by just doubling the change intervals you would reduce the waste oil by 50%!Jason

quote:hehe...that Acura 3.2 engine is a silky dream!!! i love that thing...seems to run like silk flows in a breeze.....ahhh!!sorry...a little of subject....but i had to comment-PhilAll I have to say to this is... word my man... the TL is a sweet ride...

yes indeed!

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Nice car but stay on topic.

This is true for crude oil and this is a very good point but true 100% synthetic oil doesn't use any crude oil to make. It's all man made.

Ok, not trying to get anyone's nicker in a twist but, I've a concern about the extended drain intervals.I drive a very short distance to work each day (sad but true, probably the worst you can do to your car) which means the Vibe rarely reaches op temp until I take it for a run on weekends. This means that I probably get a lot of condensation/water build up in my oil. Water and other contaminents are very bad for your engine whether or not you use synth oil. I finally got my Vibe filled with Synth (Mob 1 but only because that's all the dealer carried, be happy to fill with Amsoil if anyone in Calgary carried it!) to aid starting at -20C and to decrease wear HOWEVER, I'm always going to change it spring and fall because no filter or oil will protect against the acids and contaminents that regularly accumulate in engine oil. Perhaps my tune would change if I lived in arizona where I could run straight weight 50 all year but for the horrible driving I do (sort trips) I cannot see the value of extended drain intervals.Just a question... for those of you in the know, please let me know if my philosophy is good or completely out to lunch!One other question... what's the next best to Amsoil? Mobil 1 is the most popular around here and Amsoil is no where to be found so I can't even price it out!Thanks!

Chris you have great points. This is very hard on your oil as well as your engine but there isn't anything you can do but deal with it. In your situation I wouldn't recommend the full extended length AMSOIL recommends. This is probably the only time I wouldn't recommend the extended drain interval.Ok can you get the water out of the oil and so you can run extended oil changes? Yes you can. AMSOIL makes a remote bypass filter that is used in conjuction with their spin on Super Duty Oil filter. Your spin on filter continuously filters your oil and the larger bypass filter filtering down in the range of 1/1o of a micron. It's also designed to remove water from the oil. With this system your able to extend your oil changes well beyond 25,000 miles with oil analysis. If this interests anyone let me know.The second best oil to AMSOIL? In my opinion it would be Redline or Royal Purple. These in my opinion beat Mobil 1. This is only my opinion though and have have no documentation to back these claims up with.As for AMSOIL not being available in Canada, it is. There are a few Amsoil warehouses in Canada that will ship to your home or business.

[QUOTE]One other question... what's the next best to Amsoil? Mobil 1 is the most popular around here .... [QUOTE]From Wards Auto World,"Mobil has 63% of the synthetic oil market, however, which it has dominated since its introduction in 1973. Other players in the synthectic oil market are Castrol Syntec at 21%, Quater State at 5%, Valvoline at 5%, Pennzoil at 4% and others with 2%." http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_exxon_mobil_improves/ This tells you who the major players are, as measured by market share.

quote:The only reason Mobil has a large percentage of the market is because they have a lot of contracts with dealers, service places, gas stations. That is the only reason, and they sell a lot of oil to large companies who turn around and sell it again. That is the reason.By definition, market share is "The percentage of the total sales of a given type of product or service that are attributable to a given company." http://www.investorwords.com/cgi-bin/getword.cgi?2989 Its a number that doesn't offer explanation. I think it would be interesting to learn why the contracts and retail sales are going to Mobil. I'm sure Exxon/Mobil's marketing dept. has that data and guards it closely!

Just because someone sells a lot of their product doesn't mean it's good. Mobil 1 is a good oil but it's not the best.Mobil 1 spent more money on advertising last year than AMSOIL made is sales! That's huge! Another thing that makes Mobil 1 a big seller is because it is so easy to get. You can purchase it all most anywhere.I personally love the way AMSOIL does business. IF AMSOIL is ever started to be sold at a large store like Wlamart alot of AMSOIL dealer will lose there business. AMSOIL has said this will never happen but if it does the retailer will be forced to sell AMSOIL at the same price if not slightly higher than dealers so it should effect dealer that much.AMSOIL, Redline and Royal Purple who are in my opinion the best of the best are very small compared to the huge corporation of Mobil.I think Exxon just merged with Mobil as well. Making them even larger.

quote:...So, otherplaces are contracted for Valvoline or Penzoil.I wonder what the deal is with Valvoline and auto dealers? Back in Indiana it seemed like most of the auto dealers used Valvoline with the $19.95 30 minute oil changes. Maybe because they were a big Indy 500 sponser?

AMSOIL does have a program for the quick lube retailers to use. It's up to dealers to get these quick lubes to start useing AMSOIL. I have started talking with some of the quick lubes here locally about this.Here's so more info on this. This info is of course more for reatailers than customers. http://www.twocom.com/high_performance_ ... ortunities