Starting problems (intermittent)...only with the MATRIX?

[21Rouge]

Over at matrixowners.com is a long thread starting from the fall 2004 and continuing even into April 2005 re the excessive time in 'cranking' before the car finally starts. This occurs when the engine is warm. Of course the difficulty in solving the problem is due to the very random nature of the problem. http://www.matrixowners.com/fo...art=0I dont believe I have seen mention of such a problem for our Vibes. How much of the Vibe and Matrix 'guts' are identical? I thought they shared the same engine and transmission. But that is kind of generic. For example do they have the same fuel pump, starter, alternator,....?

[micbarric]

I experienced this problem just last week. Drove my Vibe (2005 base model, 1173 miles on odometer) about 17 miles, parked for 25-30 minutes, had to crank engine twice to start. The first time the engine turned over 8-10 seconds and wouldn't fire, I then waited about 2 seconds, tried again and the engine fired immediatly and ran fine. This is the only problem I have ever had with my Vibe and I don't understand what could have caused this "glitch". Apparently a lot of late model Matrix/Corolla owners are having this problem:http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15h ... ..rtingThe only major mechanical difference I know of between the Toyotas and Vibes is the air conditioning components. Toyotas use Denso components while the Vibes use Delphi.

[Ponyota]

Welcome to Genvibe Micbarric! Maybe it's a little vaper lock? I only had it happen one time so far (knocks on wood)

[micbarric]

Thanks for the welcome Ponyota, glad to be here!Vapor lock could indeed be an issue. The '05 engine covers are slightly different than the '04 and earlier versions. They are a bit taller and have what appears to be a half inch layer of acoustic insulation attached underneath. This may be acting like a heat insulator and causing the fuel rail to get too hot when the engine is turned off.

[Mavrik]

And I have never had a problem with my Vibe not starting well.

[ToolGuy]

Doubt it is vapor lock..."Vapor lock is highly unlikely with today's fuel systems. Vapor lock occurs when the vapor pressure of the fuel is higher than the surrounding environment. In older engines with "sucking" fuel pumps at the engine the pressure in the fuel line to the tank was reduced by the sucking action of the fuel pump drawing fuel form a fuel tank nearly twenty feet away, and when heated, the gasoline actually boiled creating a vapor of gasoline which the fuel pump could not handle, thus the name "vapor lock". Today's fuel pumps are in the fuel tank where they push the fuel under pressure to the engine systems. Excessive fuel which is not used is sent back to the fuel tank. This causes a constant flow of pressurized, cool fuel in the lines to the engine system, be it fuel injection or carburetor. As a result you would have to heat the fuel line with a propane torch to get the fuel to boil and even then it would be cooled by the flowing fuel circulating from the tank to the engine and back again to the tank. Vapor lock as we once knew it is a thing of the past."

[disco277]

I've been having this problem too... very intermittent. I've got about 2500KM on a 05 base Vibe. Haven't been able to find a pattern yet, although I don't think it's ever happened from a cold start, usually after been off for 1/2 hour. Kinda annoying when you're showing your friends you new car. "See ya later... Crap!!!"

[Mase]

This has only happened to me once...when I tried to drive the car off the dealer's lot right after signing the papers. I bought the Optima battery shortly after and never experienced the starting problem again.

[micbarric]

Since my last post I've had a chance to do some Internet "research" on the vapor lock problem. MiVibe-ToolGuy's post is correct. Fuel injection systems are pretty much immune to vapor lock even with the more volatile winter blend fuels. Also, my Vibe has had a number of hot starts since the first incident and the problem occured just one more time.On a minor technical note, most newer vehicles like the Vibe now have "returnless" fuel systems. Excess fuel is returned within the tank where the pressure regulator is now located. There is no longer a return fuel line from the rail. This was done to lower vapor emissions. Apparently in the older systems, warmed fuel returning from the rail had a tendency to warm up fuel in the tank during long drives, increasing vapor pressure beyond the canister's ability to absorb it.

[champcaracing]

i need to check monday, but i think toyota has a tsb for the 1zz engine only. need to verify years involved.will post when i get the info...

[champcaracing]

05 matrix/corolla 1zz engines, replacing the ecu is recomended for problem.

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by champcaracing »05 matrix/corolla 1zz engines, replacing the ecu is recomended for problem.How do you know this? Is there a TSB re this problem for 05 Vibes?

[champcaracing]

cause i work at a toyota dealer, don't know about the vibe, i've learned toyota and gm handle tsb's different.

[micbarric]

Here is confirmation of champcaracing's post.(With thanks to fms, member at toyotanation, for the following message):"Toyota has a service bulletin out on this. Have your dealer refer to Toyota Service Bulletin #EG018-05. It identifies which vin numbers fall into this category and are replacing the computer. It is on the earlier 05's."http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15Anyone know exactly what the bulletin says? Of course it won't do Vibe owners any good until the GM/Pontiac version is released.

[micbarric]

Again, thanks to Toyotanation for this latest info:Technical Service Bulletin TSB2232May 30, 2005Title:1ZZ-FE ENGINE “NO START”CONDITIONModels:’05 Corolla & MatrixINTRODUCTION:Some 2005 model year Corolla and Matrix vehicles equipped with a 1ZZ--FE engine may exhibit an intermittent “no start” condition. Improvements have been made to the Engine Control Module (ECM)(SAE term: Powertrain Control Module/PCM) manufacturing process to reduce the possibility of this condition occurring. Please use the following procedure to repair the vehicle.APPLICABLE VEHICLES:• 2005 model year Corolla and Matrix vehicles equipped with 1ZZ--FE engines produced BEFORE the Production Change Effective VINs shown below.PRODUCTION CHANGE INFORMATION:Model Drivetrain Production Change Effective VINCorolla 2T1BR32E05C889646http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by micbarric »Technical Service BulletinMay 30, 2005Title:1ZZ-FE ENGINE “NO START”CONDITIONModels:’05 Corolla & MatrixINTRODUCTION:Some 2005 model year Corolla and Matrix vehicles equipped with a 1ZZ--FE engine may exhibit an intermittent “no start” condition. So do we think the Vibe is unaffected by this problem?

[micbarric]

The Vibe would definitely be affected by this problem, but GM/Pontiac will have to issue their own bulletin. I would hope that Toyota provides technical info to GM regarding problems with Vibes so GM won't have to investigate this problem on their own.

[21Rouge]

So even though there is yet to be a corresponding TSB for the Vibe from GM is it likely later VIN numbers for a Vibe would have the 'fix' that Toyota refers to for its later VINs in the 05 MY?

[mikey00]

Last I heard it had something to do with the ECU not recognizing the chip on the key which would also explain why the matrix has the problem and the Vibe does not.

[ragingfish]

Quote, originally posted by mikey00 »Last I heard it had something to do with the ECU not recognizing the chip on the key which would also explain why the matrix has the problem and the Vibe does not.There is no chip on the key with either car.

[21Rouge]

Quote, originally posted by micbarric »Improvements have been made to the Engine Control Module (ECM)(SAE term: Powertrain Control Module/PCM) manufacturing process to reduce the possibility of this condition occurring. But even if GM doesnt issue a TSB as Toyota has would not late production '05 Vibes have received the improved ECM in the assembly line?

[mikey00]

I don't own a Matrix, I own a Vibe, so I can't verify the chip on a key but all specs on Toyota website claim Matrix has engine imobolizer (commonly called chip on a key) which Vibe does not. My RX 300 has the imbolizer and if you use the emergency key without the chip card held close to the steering column the engine will will just crank over and not start.Vibe does not have the imbolizer, so there is no need for a TSB.

[micbarric]

More details about the Toyota TSB:http://www.9thgencorolla.com/m...=3482

Attached files

[micbarric]

Second page:

Attached files

[micbarric]

Third page:

Attached files

[micbarric]

Found another TSB on the starting problem This one blames the fuel pump http://www.toyotanation.com/fo...pp=15

Attached files

[scherry2]

My vibe will not start when it is hot outside. If I go to work at 6 A.M. and go out at noon and its 80 to 90 degrees it will crank for a while maybe 10 to 20 seconds then start but if I stop cranking after 2 or 3 seconds and restart it it starts right up. I'm going to make an appointment this week. we'll see

[binary]

I bet a new battery will solve your problem scherry2.I've had the same issue with three-four year old cars - if the spark is weak it'll still fire up a cold engine because the mix is rich. The warm lean mixture needs a hot spark to fire it... which can sometimes be hard for an old battery to produce if it's also spinning a starter.

[zionzr2]

so if this Toyota TSB for Non-starts replaces the PCM. The VIbe already has a TSB that replaces the PCM as a solution to the dread Sulfur Dioxide problem.... No wonder its taking forever to get parts ordered in .... Every stinkin PCM out there needs to be replaced....

[scherry2]

HMMM that could be true. thanks I might have auto zone check my battery out before I go to the dealer.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by micbarric »The only major mechanical difference I know of between the Toyotas and Vibes is the air conditioning components. Toyotas use Denso components while the Vibes use Delphi.Don't know about the 2005 Vibes, but in the 2003/2004 Vibes, the Toyota "TRD" supercharger would not work on the Vibe because the Vibe ECU/ECM/PCM was different, and the TRD piggyback module was not compatible with the ECU/ECM/PCM in the Vibe. So, I wouldn't assume the 2005 Vibe ECU/ECM/PCM is the same as the one in the Matrix.Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy »Today's fuel pumps are in the fuel tank where they push the fuel under pressure to the engine systems. Excessive fuel which is not used is sent back to the fuel tank. This causes a constant flow of pressurized, cool fuel in the lines to the engine system, be it fuel injection or carburetor. As a result you would have to heat the fuel line with a propane torch to get the fuel to boil and even then it would be cooled by the flowing fuel circulating from the tank to the engine and back again to the tank. Vapor lock as we once knew it is a thing of the past."I am pretty sure that the stock setup in these cars does not have a fuel return rail, and the only tubes to the fuel tank are the filler tube, the fuel pump output line, and an evaporative emissions tube. No return line. At least on the 2003/2004 Vibes. Even so, I'd be pretty surprised if the problem was vapor lock.

[northvibe]

ok so im sorta drunk and didnt read all the posts...but do the matrix's have the same A/C issues the vibe does, as someone said they uses different units.