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Ok, electronics gurus, I need serious help, FAST!So I'm working on something today, and all day, I smell a weird smell. It smelled kinda like paint, so I figured nothing of it.But then I went to turn the car on, noticed my radio was dead. Hmm...weird. Pulled it out, checked the fuse on the radio, not blown. Odd. Checked my XM, that worked, so I didn't think it was the radio circuit. Figured I'd check fuses anyway...Go under the dash, pull the fuse, nothing.Go under the hood, just poke around, hmm...DOME fuse is blown. Odd. So I plug it back in. It gets hot fast. Weeeeird. I pull it out. I notice it spark. I go to see if the keys are in, there's smoke pouring out of the cluster. OMFG!I pull the fuse and frantically run everywhere to find the socket to unplug the battery. I did. I try to get under the dash, but can't figure out what the cause is. Unplug my mirror, my remote starter even (this has caused problems in the past). Plug the battery in. Smoke. OMFG! I can't figure out what's going on here...and I need my car by tomorrow...Can ANYONE shed any light on this???Here's where it's coming from (you can even see the smoke in this pic):That picture is behind that left side storage bin, that is the top of the fuse block.

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hard to know what it might be, why the dome fuse under the hood would blow and the under dash fuse block would meltdown.without any other info, I would be inclined to suspect this:Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »So I'm working on something today, what part of the car is that pic of, the under dash fuse block looking at it with the storage bin to the left of the steering wheel removed?

UPDATE: The minute I posted, I had an epiphany. The only thing that I had done differently today is that I had changed my dome light knob from OFF to DOOR. So I tried something. I reconnected the battery, replaced the fuse. Moved the dome light knob from OFF to DOOR, and heard the fuse pop. Sure enough. The problem is in my dome light system somewhere...How could this randomly happen you ask? Why it's not random at all, friends, it is related to my big interior mod project to be unveiled as soon as I figure out what's wrong with my circuit!

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish » UPDATE:How could this randomly happen you ask? Why it's not random at all, friends, it is related to my big interior mod project to be unveiled as soon as I figure out what's wrong with my circuit! There it is folks, interior HID lights! Sun tan in the car!

Quote, originally posted by damronjr »There it is folks, interior HID lights! Sun tan in the car! Muwahahahahahahah!That's phase II!

With the battery disconnected, and DOME fuse in, (and light knob in bad position) try measuring the resistance from the positive battery lead to negative - if less than a few Ohms you've got a short from battery to ground.Do you have a service manual? Knowing what changing the light knob from OFF to DOOR powers up may help you track it down. Good luck!

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »With the battery disconnected, and DOME fuse in, (and light knob in bad position) try measuring the resistance from the positive battery lead to negative - if less than a few Ohms you've got a short from battery to ground.You mean use a multimeter on the two wires that normally connect to the battery?

does your interior project involve leds. and are some installed already? if so check the bias of your leds, and make sure the voltages and currents are correct.if not ignore this

Ok, in the interest of solving this problem, I'll leak.I am installing LEDs.What do you mean check the bias?

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »You mean use a multimeter on the two wires that normally connect to the battery?Yes.Also per LEDs - Make sure they are intended for 12 volts or have proper resistors in series with them.If they are not intended for direct 12v hookup - measure the voltage across the LED - it should be in the neighborhood of 1.8v to 2.5v. Also, measure the current; it should be in the area of 20mA (less is okay, more than 30 could be a problem unless they're multiple LED lights)PS Even if the LED current is > 30mA but is still less than an Amp or so it's not the main problem. I still suspect a short, possibly in the door based on your light switch settings. (but not necessarily)

Quote, originally posted by GMJAP »Yes.Is it safe to use an ohmmeter on the car? I've heard warnings everywhere about using an ohmmeter around airbags...makes me neverous...Quote »Also per LEDs - Make sure they are intended for 12 volts or have proper resistors in series with them.Yeah, they're specific to automotive use, come prewired with resistors built in.

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »Is it safe to use an ohmmeter on the car? I've heard warnings everywhere about using an ohmmeter around airbags...makes me neverous...That's a testlight numbnuts.. If you have a proper multimeter, it has an Ohm setting usually represented by the Ohm symbol.You probably melted through something, though... so i'd try unplugging all the random stuff you did, see if it's still popping fuses, and go from there.. Hopefully there's no major damage in the dash / fusebox.

Oh, and here's the worst part of it all.Somewhere along the line, I lost my handy-dandy fuse puller! And all the ones I have lying around are too big...ARGH!Anyone at a GM dealer wanna snag one for me?

[QUOTE=ragingfish]Is it safe to use an ohmmeter on the car? I've heard warnings everywhere about using an ohmmeter around airbags...makes me neverous...QUOTE]I wouldn't use one on the wiring going into the airbag, but on the battery cables you'll be quite safe.An Ohmmeter puts a tiny voltage across the terminals and measures the current that flows to figure out the resistance. It won't set off anything that hooking up your 12V battery wouldn't. If you directly connected to random wiring on the airbag unit, especially while it was still powered from 12V, it's possible the Ohmmeter voltage could look like a "deploy" signal on the right pin. But here you're just connecting a 0.5v or whatever "battery" instead of the normal 12 volter.

I was looking at the service manual power distribution schematics for stuff coming off the DOME fuse. Unfortunately, no bright ideas hit me.If you can Ohm out from the battery terminals and see a short, though, you could go through the power distribution schematics and disconnect connectors one at a time from where the DOME path flows through the Instrument Panel Fuse block and the Junction Block Inst Panel Left. Each time you pull one, check for the short - if it goes away you know it's somewhere down the line from that connector. (You have a service manual, right?)Kind of a pain, but without knowing more that's my suggestion.Best of luck!

Ok, so, I am almost sure I eliminated the short when I disconnected my modified dome lights...So if I were to Ohm test right now, one on each battery lead...what would i have to see on the display to show I have no shorts?

Sorry, I just caught this thread about 10 minutes ago...I don't know if you're still up, troubleshooting, but if I understood your question, with the battery disconnected, and measuring across the battery leads, in effect you are measuring the resistance of the car's electrical system (at least whatever parts of it are 'on' - in this case, the troublesome dome light circuit.You might need the ignition key to be in the 'on' position to get anything other than 'no circuit' (hundreds of thousands to millions of ohms resistance)I don't know what resistance (Ohm) scales your multimeter has, or if it's auto-ranging (bummer in this case, cause a range of about 1,000 to 10,000 Ohms would probably help troubleshoot better), but I'd guess the 'normal' resistance back SHOULD be somewhere in the many hundreds to possibly thousands of ohms.As stated previously, if the ohm reading is at or near ZERO ohms on a low-ranging scale (10-1000 ohms, again if it's not auto-ranging), you most likely still have a serious short (e.g. smoking, damaging). My car is parked outside, and my multimeter battery is dead, otherwise, I'd go out and try to give you some readings.EDIT I'm assuming you know that if you're physically holding your fingers on the multimeter leads to press them onto the battery terminals, you could get a false resistance reading through your body. Probably something in the tens of millions of ohms though, depending upon how sweaty your fingers are. FWIW if it was me, MY fingers would be MIGHTY SWEATY about now...Best of luck!

Thanks kostby, I'll have to try this tomorrow...I've been leaving the negative battery terminal unhooked overnight until I solve this problem...

Since it's your DOME fuse, you probably don't need to have the ignition on- this may actually complicate your readings. You want to test with all fuses in and switches on and doors open etc that would cause the blown fuse with the battery connected. Also, you'll probably see more like 100's of Ohms for a normal reading.However, if disconnecting your mods solves the problem, then there's not much point in doing this - you know the problem is in the mods. Just measure the Ohms of the mod between where you would connect +12V and gound. It should be 100's of Ohms or more. If not, you've got a short in the mods. You can try disconnecting things in the mod and keep checking with the Ohmmeter until you get a good reading - so you don't have to smoke your electrical system to test it!

The various door switches connect a ground throught the dimmer/door/off/on dome light control, and tie in to something called an integration relay, which is located about where the smoke was coming out. Perhaps in your mod you connected 12V from somewhere into what should be ground/open input to the integration relay.Kind of hard to know what you might have done, what effect it might have had. I know you have the service manuals, but for anyone else trying to help troubleshoot, here's the wiring diagram.

Attached files 021il.pdf (50.6 KB) 

Ok, I did a ohmmeter test, and it's showing the resistance at 10 kΩ. And it was still creeping up when I finally decided to take the meter off...Is this good or bad?

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »Ok, I did a ohmmeter test, and it's showing the resistance at 10 kΩ. And it was still creeping up when I finally decided to take the meter off...Is this good or bad?Well, there's no short, so that's good, but whether it's supposed to be that high or not is another story.

Quote, originally posted by damronjr »Well, there's no short, so that's good, but whether it's supposed to be that high or not is another story.Well, I feel better then, even if that's too high, at least there's no short!I pulled the dash too, btw...pulled every relay and wire harness on top of the fuse block...not a single one showed signs of overheating...And I examined the main wire bus behind it, to the best of my ability again, no signs of heat damage.Which makes me wonder...WHERE did the smoke come from???

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »Well, I feel better then, even if that's too high, at least there's no short!I pulled the dash too, btw...pulled every relay and wire harness on top of the fuse block...not a single one showed signs of overheating...And I examined the main wire bus behind it, to the best of my ability again, no signs of heat damage.Which makes me wonder...WHERE did the smoke come from???Sounds like one of your components might have let out it's "magic smoke" that makes it work. Does anything appear to not work? Might give a clue as to where your problem is.

Quote, originally posted by damronjr »Does anything appear to not work? Might give a clue as to where your problem is.Not as of yet. Guess I'll find out tonight on my way to work...

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »Not as of yet. Guess I'll find out tonight on my way to work...Try everything you can think of and see if anything is either not working or not working properly. Hopefully you will notice a problem. Make sure you listen as well as look for potential problems. It may be a visible or audible problem you may notice. Something had to go for smoke to be coming out like that.

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »I pulled the dash too, btw...pulled every relay and wire harness on top of the fuse block...not a single one showed signs of overheating...And I examined the main wire bus behind it, to the best of my ability again, no signs of heat damage.Which makes me wonder...WHERE did the smoke come from???All those amps of direct current can heat up things in a real hurry (though it may seem like hours when the smoke is pouring out, it was probably only a few seconds).In a brilliant flash of the obvious, and since you're NOT trying to duplicate the 'Smoke Test' feat, let me suggest generically that 'something plastic' near 'something metal' got really hot really fast in the short circuit that was created... a) wire insulation, b) plastic housing of a shorted/affected module or relayc) plastic housing for the circuit board that holds the relaysd) plastic of the mod you installed.Unless you manage to touch it while it's still hot, you'll probably never find out precisely what caused the smoke. I'm amazed that you were able to take a picture of it!I guess the ultimate question is: Have you tried to start the car now that the mods are disabled?And now for the smart@ss sarcastic comment you're probably all expecting me to make...Quote »Trying to turn your Vibe into a huge George Foreman Grill is really generous of you, Michael, but I'd wait until the Super Meet in Fenton, when you could cook lunch AND THEN get the dang thing fixed by the Joseph Pontiac techs the same day!

Quote, originally posted by kostby »I guess the ultimate question is: Have you tried to start the car now that the mods are disabled?Yeah, car starts normally. Haven't DRIVEN it, but it starts.I had checked quickly for burnt relays, and burnt insulation on the main wire bus leading to the fuse panel, but because there are SO many wires in there, i can only see the outside ones, and i'm not untaping them just to find if one is even melted...I never thought about plastic though...It was weird, even after I cut the power the smoke kept pouring out...for about a minute...usually if plastic melts, IIRC, it smokes for a few seconds and stops as soon as the heat is removed...makes me wonder, would an electrical component and/or wire smoke for a long time even after the short is stopped, or was it more likely plastic?While I reconnected the battery and want to leave it reconnected, I'm still so paranoid about somethign else being wrong...I keep having mental images of the dateline report where some guys ford truck had a short in the CC switch because it was fault, it kept getting hotter and hotter and finally ignited the car, charring it down to the chassis...I PRAY the issue is what I think it was, the dome lights, and that it's done and over with (since the dome lights are staying out until I can rework them...

Just to be safe, don't park it in the garage tonight (or close to the house for that matter)What does IIRC mean?

Did you pull the relays to see if maybe the plastic around the relay socket might be melted? If it was something metal with some amount of mass to it that got hot enough to smoke some surrounding plastic, it might have enough thermal mass to cause the smoke longer after the short was removed.Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants »What does IIRC mean?If I remember correctly, IIRC can mean:Illinois Institute of Rocket ChemistryI is really coolIt is really carcinogenicI imagine recreational copulation

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »If I remember correctly, IIRC can mean:Illinois Institute of Rocket ChemistryI is really coolIt is really carcinogenicI imagine recreational copulationNot to be a skeptic but I don't think he is referring to any of those, must be another meaning

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants »Not to be a skeptic but I don't think he is referring to any of those, must be another meaning If I remember correctly, IIRC can mean:Incremental Inertia, Rotational ComponentInternal Internet Relay ChatIndigenous Iriquois Reservation CouncilIngesting Imitation Real ChocolateIrish Isle Roman Catholic

its incredibly runny capimpossibly idiotic retarded cowi inexplicably ride cowgirls

Nice try guys, but i believe it meansIf I remember correctly.Or Is Iceland Really Cold?

nothin gets by the poopmeister

I'm a quick one!

I am far from an electronics guru, so instead I brought my

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »Did you pull the relays to see if maybe the plastic around the relay socket might be melted? If it was something metal with some amount of mass to it that got hot enough to smoke some surrounding plastic, it might have enough thermal mass to cause the smoke longer after the short was removed.Yeah, i pulled all the relays, and still can't explain where it came from...I drove to work and back, no noticeable problems, but then again, i'm SO paranoid somethign is wrong, i kept thinking i felt things abnormal that I'm sure I didn't.I'm still uneasy because I know SOMETHING isn't right -- something had to burn out or melt to make that smoke...and I don't know what it is...and I don't know if I found the source of the problem...Until I know those two things for sure, I'm not gonna be comfortable. ColonelPanic seems to be a bit of an electronics guru, maybe he can take a peek next weekend...Then again, I might just suck it up, pay the money, and have the dealer give me the all clear.

having the dealer look at it enough to give you the allclear could get expensive, but I understand the uneasiness of just hoping nothing is about to go wrong after smoking something electrical.If you can post or send me a diagram showing what your mod was and how you actually hooked it up (which, given the smoke, is not necessarily how you wanted to hook it up or how it should be hooked up ) then it would be easier to try to identify which part would have taken the hit, perhaps narrow down the search for damage some.

Well, here's basically what I did.Using my handy-dandy add-a-circuit that I used for my dimming mirror, I created a second offshoot for my LED system. I bought the same LEDs as a colonelpanic -- 6 super-bright LEDS in each unit. I have two units under the driver side dash, two under the passenger side dash, two under the driver seat, two under the passenger seat, one in each of the four dash vents, and one in each of the three dome lights. What I did was ran a main wire bus through the dash, up into the roof, and then ran it down both running boards and under the seats. I spliced in along the way for each of the connections. What I am pretty sure happened is that when I modified my dome lights to accomodate a bulb AND LEDS, as seen here: I think one of the wires that soldered to the bulbs may have snapped off and touch the roof somehow...I can't confirm this however...The LED circuit itself is unharmed. All units still work. What I discovered after I first had the probelm was the center dome (incandescent) out, then I realized the broken wire...so that's why I'm ALMOST positive that was the problem..The other reason I think that was it is that I remember leaving the dome knob in the OFF position prior to the smoke, because I found the domes get so hot, they melt the plastic of the LED units...so I decided not to use them unless necessary. I remember driving however, Wednesday, and found the dash was hard to read because my headlights were on, and the gauges dimmed, so I turned the knob from OFF to DOOR. Then I got home, started working on the the project, and started smelling the odor, followed by smoke after I replaced the fuse.

Joatmon, any thoughts?

Looking again at the photo on page one of this thread, it appears that a plug-in connector ("JUNCTION CONNECTOR"?) may be what was smoking.

Don't let the photo deceive you...The smoke came from the rear of the fuse block, I saw it wafting through and out the front of the dash...

the dome lights normally get constant +12V from the dome fuse, and the various controls that turn the lights on switch in a ground. If you shorted that +12V to ground it should have just blown the dome fuse. You changed it so that the dome light +12V now comes from your add-a-circuit? What fuse location did you plug in your add-a-circuit to? There doesn't seem to be much in the dome light circuit to act up, other than the "integration relay", which is part of the power door lock circuit also. I am not sure which part is the integration relay. I bought a 2 volume set of the Vibe service manuals, and haven't been able to find volume two for months now, that has been quite frustating. I can use the softcopy matrix manual, and for some things it's better, but not in this case.

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »the dome lights normally get constant +12V from the dome fuse, and the various controls that turn the lights on switch in a ground. If you shorted that +12V to ground it should have just blown the dome fuse. You changed it so that the dome light +12V now comes from your add-a-circuit? What fuse location did you plug in your add-a-circuit to? There doesn't seem to be much in the dome light circuit to act up, other than the "integration relay", which is part of the power door lock circuit also. I am not sure which part is the integration relay. I bought a 2 volume set of the Vibe service manuals, and haven't been able to find volume two for months now, that has been quite frustating. I can use the softcopy matrix manual, and for some things it's better, but not in this case.No, I think I confused you.The standard incandescent dome lights till operate normally. All I did was solder a wire directly to the bulbs, and to the contacts of the fixture, so that I could move the bulb off to the side and shove the LEDs up there too. All the LEDs are running off of the add-a-circuit, which the mirror is also running off of, and they are pulling off of the gauge fuse (i think???)The dome fuse did blow under the hood twice -- but once it didn't blow until AFTER the smoke...

UPDATE:I made an appointment with the dealer for Wednesday. I braced myself before making the call for a lecture and scolding, and when I called, they said "bring it down, tell us what you need done then." So they don't even know what they're in for yet! Will let y'all know the deal Wed.

I've been trying to think what might have smoked, but even if I looked over the car myself I would still be reluctant to tell you that everything was fine. I'd hate to have a serious problem go ignored becauase of bad advice from me, so although I worry that the dealer inspection may cost you a bunch of money, you and I will probably have a lot more peace of mind if they look at it. Sorry I couldn't help any more. Good luck Wednesday.

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I've been trying to think what might have smoked, but even if I looked over the car myself I would still be reluctant to tell you that everything was fine. I'd hate to have a serious problem go ignored becauase of bad advice from me, so although I worry that the dealer inspection may cost you a bunch of money, you and I will probably have a lot more peace of mind if they look at it. Sorry I couldn't help any more. Good luck Wednesday.Fear not my friend, you helped a lot.I don't think the dealer inspection will kill me monetarily, like I always say, my family has gone to this dealer since before my grandfather died, and the original owner of the dealer was my grandfather's best fried...so they're like family to me. Will I pay something? Absolutely. And I full expect to, after all, this was my fault trying to do something the manufacturer tells me not to.But as you said -- I need the peace of mind, and since they can probably remove the lower dash better than I could (it's the ONE part of the car I've yet to successfully get out), they can take a much closer look at that whole area and see what exactly happened...

Well, I'm slowly piecing together more of the mystery.After removing the badly-modified dome assemblies, properly insulating them, and reinstalling them, I came to discover tonight that something DOES NOT WORK!Turns out, the dome lights DO NOT trigger anymore when the doors are opened...SO, I believe I found my smoking gun (literally!)Based on the troubleshooting steps presented in the service manuals, I suspect one of the following is the answer:(A) replace the instrument panel wiring harness (GOD I HOPE NOT!)(B) replace a diode(C) replace the dimmer switch (unlikely)(D) replace the multifunction alarm module (unlikey, but more possible than (C))Anyway, fill find out for sure tomorrow.

wow, sure hope it's not "A"Where is the diode that might be bad, or do you know which one it is in a wiring diagram?"C" does seem unlikeley since it was not where the smoke was coming from, "D" doesn't sound cheap, but a probably a bargain compared to "A"