GenVibe - Community for Pontiac Vibe Enthusiasts

Yesterday I washed my car in the 30 degree weather. Then I went to work and it snowed on it and got it all wet again so I dryed it off in the parking lot with ym chamois. at about 9 I went to dinner with my boss and do some other things. At about 10-10:30 the water on the roads started freezin solid and it was very slippery. I was comin around a corner at about 30mph and I lost it on the ice, did a 180 and slammed backwards into a firehydrant. I was only going about 5-10mph when I hit it, but it put a hole on the left side of the rear bumper and put about a 5" diameter dent in the left rear quarter panel.It didn't chip or crinkle the paint so the dent should pop out fairly easy. I needed a new bumper anyway because some idiot backed into me and puncture where the reverse lights go. I dunno if I'm gonna claim it on the insurance yet I'm trying to figure that out. I can't believe I hit the only object on the side of the road within viewing distance lol. I feel so bad that I damaged my baby I feel like I've betreayed her...

hey man, it happens. You should acually feel lucky. When I had my saturn I lost control on the ice and bashed it into a tree.

Yeah man. Good things nothing serious happened. Sorry to hear that your car got messed up. And yeah, let us know what you're gonna do about this . I would also recommend getting some good tires. Those Goodyears are garbage! So, yeah. Inder

I could have easily steered clear of it if I was payinga ttention and focused...I cut the wheel to the left and the car was spinning to teh right. If I would have turned the wheels with the spin I would have just missed the fire hydrant.

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow »I could have easily steered clear of it if I was payinga ttention and focused...I cut the wheel to the left and the car was spinning to teh right. If I would have turned the wheels with the spin I would have just missed the fire hydrant.actually, you turned in the proper direction. did you hit the brakes when you started to spin?

They (who is "they" anyway?) now say to point the steering wheel in the direction you want to go. Also, look in the direction you want to go. If you look at the fire hydrant or other object on the side of the road with the intention of avoiding it, you will find that you tend to go where you look, so don't look that way.

O yeah. You don't have ABS, do you? Dude, that thing has saved my a$$ so many times. Seriously.Inder

Quote, originally posted by Robert G »They (who is "they" anyway?) now say to point the steering wheel in the direction you want to go. Also, look in the direction you want to go. If you look at the fire hydrant or other object on the side of the road with the intention of avoiding it, you will find that you tend to go where you look, so don't look that way.(edit)if you are sliding and your back swings out to the right, cut right and vise versa. is that what you meant?trd, in the snow, the brake, abs or not, is your enemy. he would have been better slamming the gas than hitting the brake. when i am in the snow and my (removed) end kicks out, i give it gas and cut the wheel slightly the opposite way until i get straight again. i cant wait until snow comes here! i love to drift around corners!

Well. I agree with you there. But, I haven't done that when I'm turning, like you do, give it some gas and swing the back end the other way to straighten the car around.Inder

When I was learning to drive, they taught that in a slide, you should turn the wheel in the direction of the slide. So, if the back was sliding out to the right, you'd turn the wheel to the right to correct the slide. That seems to have confused people, so now they say, point the wheel in the direction you want to go. And as i said, look in that direction as well.As to brakes, I thought that ABS was exactly for this situation. You slam on the brakes and let the computer modulate them to avoid the brakes from locking up. Be aware that if you slam the brakes on most ABS systems, you will feel a pulse back. Keep on the brakes. Most people feel the pulse and let up on the brakes, which stops the ABS from doing its job.

in my experience, abs kind of sux in the snow. it seems like forever to stop.

Yeah. in most cases. I wouldn't trust it either. But, it's saved me from other people before. So, I'm happy.Inder

There was no possibility of swinging the backend since the backend was pulling the front end. I did a 180 and continued going i the same direction only rear-end first. I had the gas slammed and I don't think I hit the brakes...I might have pulled the e-brake, can't remember...Either way, I'm pretty upset. I thought of myself as a descent driver and this kinda shattered my pride and confedence

Quote, originally posted by drunkenvibe »in my experience, abs kind of sux in the snow. it seems like forever to stop.I disagree...My first car, an 89 bonneville, had no abs. In the snow one time, I slammed on the brakes. The wheels locked up, and the car was moving fast enough that it kept sliding across the top of the snow for a good 25 - 50 feet....In my vibe last winter, even with the crappy contis, i find the "gradual" decelaration that anti-lock brakes provide helps to reduce stopping distance.But also, if the snow is heavy enough, I keep my distance, and as soon as a light turns yellow, I downshift...yes, on an auto.I find downshifting and using the engine to slow down as much as possible is the safest and most easily controllable method of "braking" in snow and rain that you can do...All my humblest opinions, of course.

I downshift in my auto too...I usually drive with over drive off, and shift into second if I am driving under 30mph.

alright merz, you can tell us, your mom wont find out... what were you really doing?? in a fwd, it is pretty hard to do a 180 on accident without slamming on the breaks or pulling the e-brake, i dont see how it could happen just going around a turn. the worst that should happen would be understeering straight through the turn....not getting down on you, just inquiring

Driving in ice and snow..... that's a pretty regular occurance up here. Best way to get out of a spin? Avoid one. If there's any moisture on the road, and it's starting to drop below freezing, you ought to be driving slower than normal. I usually slam on the brakes on a straight stetch of road to see if there's ice on the road.I took an Advanced Vehicle Control course through work and they teach than during a spin, just take your foot off everyting (including gas), and try to steer where you want to go and look where you want to go. The reason is that once you start losing grip, you only have a certain amount of force to exert via the tires, what is the preferable thing to do, use what ever grip you have to slow down (over the next 30-50 ft), or use that force to try to correct your course.BTW, if you did happen to pull your e-brake, it would have swung your back end out even more, as it gurantees that your back tires will not grip on the ice and the back end will continue in the same direction it started in. I usually pull the e-brake when I'm TRYING to spin out the back end. Lots of fun on empty parking lots

(removed), ok here's the story...I went around this corner. The car slipped a little because I had no idea it was solid ice. I slowed down a bit because my tires are virtualy bald and as Inder said, I don't have abs. I remember last year on the way home from school the roads were covered in about 3 inches of snow. I pulled the e-brake and the car went sideways and I drove down teh street at like an 80 degree angel for about 10 seconds. It was sweet and I regained control of the car easily. I tried to do this yesterday on the ice...same concept same proceedure. I did it successfully. The only problem I think is that I waited ot long to let the e-brake off so the back end swung around. The accident was 100% my fault that's why I'm so upset about it. I'm usually pretty good about this stuff but for some reason i decided to do something stupid

aha!!! remember, ice is far worse than snow! in snow, you have a great chance of recovering, on ice, there is virtually no way to get a decent grip. ill save you the beginner driver lecture and just say to remember, there will be plenty of time to have fun once you have more experience behind the wheel.

Man, you used that crowbar and pryed the truth out of him. I'm sure he wasn't expecting the spanish inquisition.

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow »I was comin around a corner at about 30mph and I lost it on the ice, did a 180 and slammed backwards into a firehydrant. Just be glad you did not knock the Hydrant right off the pipe, like in the movies! Then there really would have been ice and if caught on video, would be on ebaumsworld.com now!

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Poopypants »Man, you used that crowbar and pryed the truth out of him. I'm sure he wasn't expecting the spanish inquisition.>noone expects the drunken inquisition!!!!

HAHAHA I was waiting for someone to pick up on that.

lol...I've done ice drifting millions and millions of times before but I gues I needed to regain the feeling a little more before I start doing stuff since this is only like the second snowfall...My friend let me drive his 5spd manual civic today (first time driving a stick) so that cheered me up a bit He just got a new Ractive exhaust on it...sounds kind of like the borla on teh Vibe but louder and lower pitched.Thanks for all of your concern and not flaming me "you stupid kids, all you guys do is screw around! Go kill yourself" like I was expecting (removed)...BTW, if we do decide to claim this on the insurance my mom will tell them she was Christmas shopping at the mall and she came out of the lot and saw the damage. It does kinda look like I got rear ended. If we tell them I was driving it the insurance will skyrocket. I don't understand what the point of insurance is if you cannot use it in anyways without the rates going up dramatically? I think it's bullsh*t.I'm probably just gonna end up buying a new bumper myself and taking it to my mom's friend's bodyshop for hte dent. Maybe I can convince her to let me get the Psycho bumper I wish!

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow »BTW, if we do decide to claim this on the insurance my mom will tell them she was Christmas shopping at the mall and she came out of the lot and saw the damage. It does kinda look like I got rear ended. If we tell them I was driving it the insurance will skyrocket. I don't understand what the point of insurance is if you cannot use it in anyways without the rates going up dramatically? I think it's bullsh*t.1) WARNING: If you insist on misreporting your accident (normally a collision loss) as a hit & run (normally a comprehensive loss), "you" (whoever's name is on the policy) are guilty of insurance fraud, and "you" (whoever's name is on the policy) WILL be cancelled immediately if and when they ever find out about it. 2) Insurance claims reps DO investigate loss reports before making payments. Malls DO have security cameras. If the insurance company can't substantiate your claim, they'll deny it anyway, and may still cancel you for false reporting.It varies from state to state, but when "you" (whoever's name is on the policy) are cancelled for fraud, you become 'damaged goods' and most other insurance companies will NOT even consider you at any cost. You will probably have to enter a state-operated 'high risk' insurance pool, and your rates will be at least several times higher than what you're already paying, for far less coverage than you're now getting (probably state minimum requirements).3) Many people misunderstand the purpose of insurance. Admittedly, the insurance industry does little to try to correct the misconceptions or explain what it is you're buying.Many people see their insurance payments as a 'subscription', e.g. if you subscribe to a Cable-TV, you expect to get your money's worth out of it every month by watching Cable TV programs.Insurance is different. In exchange for a 'small' regular payments [See Note 1 below], the insurance company protects "you" (whoever's name is on the policy) and its other insureds against large unexpected losses. Your policy has certain coverage 'limits', the maximum the company will pay for property damage, collision, and comprehensive losses caused by you or incurred ('done to you').Your insurance cost is based upon rates determined by a number of factors, among them being loss-experience (your claims and your at-fault accidents in the past 3-5 years), driving record (moving violations especially), your age (it's unfortunate but completely true that young male drivers have the most accidents), your creditworthiness (now used by many companies, though still quite unpopular with consumer advocates), the value and age of the vehicle you're driving - including whether the vehicle is 'high performance' or popular with thieves, how many miles you drive annually, whether your vehicle is used in your work, the crime rate in the area where you live, where you drive, and whether your vehicle has safety equipment and anti-theft equipment.[Note 1]The term 'small' is relative of course, but even $500. per month is 'small' when compared to the potential replacement cost of your entire vehicle if it's totaled, added to the potential cost of repairing/replacing property (other vehicles, structures, signs, plants, animals, landscaping) damaged by your vehicle, and medical payments to you, your passengers, the passengers of other vehicles, and pedestrians, plus the costs of investigation, and legal fees if there is litigation involved in determining who is at fault, which company has primary coverage, and so on. LOSS SCENARIO: Say for example, you're blinded for a moment by morning sunlight as you approach an unfamiliar intersection in a nice neighborhood. You blow a stop-sign, and in trying to avoid a collision with a surgeon hurrying to the hospital pulling through the intersection in his new Lexus, you glance off the side of his car and slide through someones meticulously landscaped yard with special rose bushes brought over from the old country and planted last year by the homeowner's now-deceased grandfather. Skidding across the freshly-watered lawn, you then run over a lady out walking her highly pedigreed prize-winning cocker spaniel, and crash horrendously into a brand new Mercedes bus full of lawyer's kids on their way to private school, injuring one kid seriously (ICU), 4 kids (broken limbs) enough to require overnight hospitalization, and 5 others with assorted bumps and scrapes.(You should read actual claims files. This is not even close to some real cases!)Sideswiped Lexus - $20,000 damage.Surgeon - missed his scheduled bypass surgery due to the accident - his patient died, he's being sued, and he and his patient's family are suing you for unspecified damages.Lawn job - $10,000 to re-landscape and repair damageRosebushes - Priceless, but the homeowner will settle for $5,000Lady - deceased - Despite her $1,000,000 personal Life Insurance policy, her family's lawyers want you to pay her estate $5 million for 'wrongful death' for starters. The lawyer who will agree to defend you will cost you $150,000, even if you win.Dog - deceased - valued at $25,000 (BRIGHT SPOT: the dog may have been insured)School bus - $125,000 damage, just because it's a Mercedes.Kids - $15,000 per day for the one in intensive care, $1,000 to $5,000 per kid for transportation to the hospital and an emergency-room visit, and that's just for medical treatments BEFORE their lawyer-dads get hold of you!If you have $300,000/$100,000 coverage, your insurance company will quickly pay the 'limit' ($300,000 per accident, $100,000 per occurence) and you're going to be left holding the bag for the rest of the costs, including legal fees while they sue your @ss off!Bottom line: 1) It's probably cheaper to pay for your bumper out of your own pocket. 2) Please drive carefully!

wow i guess i never really understood how that insurance works , that was an awesome explanation, thank god i'm not a doctor, my job they pay me to kill but they make me leave the country to do it ha ha ha

Well thanks aot for straightening that out. You're right, no one ever explained it to me. So atleast now I know where my money's going. I still think it's b/s that you pay that much and you are too afraid to report a d*mn $300 bumper replacement when you pay $2400 a year.You wanna know what Progressive insurance quoted us? $7600 A YEAR!!!!!!!!!!! I would have paid more in insurance in little over two years than the whole d*mn car. Here's the stupid part. I was listed as secondary driver just like in the policy we've got now, my mom has never been in an accident (neither have I...well that I could report atleast) and my mom has only gotten one ticket in her life and that was for cutting through residential area during the restricted time. At that time I did not have any tickets either. I dunno how the hell they calculated $7600 when we asked for the exact same coverage as we have at this place...and on top of that, they only gave us the rates of ONE OTHER COMPETITOR instead of 3 like the comercial said and the on competitor was just as bad with a quote of about $4000 a year.I understand it's just a pillow to fall back on but what if you go through life never needing insurance. Then you've wasted hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of dollars paying insurance for nothing. They should give you a return check for a couple hundred each year after you pay enough insurance to buy your car back twice. Atleast that way you get something back if you don't use it...or maybe atleast be able to qualify for the check. You wouldn't get one if you've crashed alot ina given length of time or whatever.

Insurance companies are their own worst enemy. They seem to design their policies and services in a way to infuriate the most people they can. Not that you'd ever figure this out from dealing with an insurance company, but the concept of casualty insurance is one of the greatest inventions of mankind, enabling private individuals and enterprises to take on all sorts of activities, that without insurance, would be way too risky. (No, I don't work in the insurance industry.) From the days of Lloyds and sailing ships, insurance has made it possible for individuals to pool their risks by paying a premium that is relatively small, predictable and affordable, and then being able to recoup in the event of a catastrophic loss, thereby avoiding total financial ruin.Look at driving. Those of us who have something to lose (house, savings, business) literally would risk everything we own just by driving. I now have a 16 year old son driving. If I could not buy $1 million of liability insurance, I could not afford to let him drive - see Kotsby's worst-case scenario for a good example. Even at $1 million, I feel underinsured when I read something like that.Follow Kotsby's good advice, don't fudge an insurance claim, it is fraud, it is illegal and it just isn't right. Insurance is designed to mitigate large losses but you still have to take life's smaller lumps. Check out the price of getting it fixed then decide if you should claim it or not. Glad you were not hurt, It is easy to lose it on ice.

when i first bought my car USAA wanted to quote me with 484 a month, i switched to GMAC and am now paying just over 80 a month

Sorry to hear that,don't forget that we are human sometime's is normal to do some mistake.

HAHA, $5800 eh? I dunno where they get these quotes from but some of them are insane. Well I can't claim it because my rates will skyrocket...I don't understand why one little bumper replacement will cause hte rates to go up so much, I've been driving for a year and had no problems, why do they think just one accident will lead to others? I think it's just an excuse to get more money from you...yeah I'm sure it does happen to some, getting into accident after accident, which would then be a very fair and justified reason to reaise the rates, but come on just one minor accident shouldn't be a reason to raise the rates. I personally think after the second claim they should be able to rasise them but the first should have no impact unless of course its a major accident.

The first still costs them money though, and depending on what you damage, it could cost them quite a bit, regardless of whether or not the accident itself was "major."Really minor stuff shouldn't be reported... What's your deductible? Even if it's $250, you're only saving yourself $50 by filing, which makes it not worth it in the long run with the rate increase.

Quote, originally posted by Merzbow »Thanks for all of your concern and not flaming me "you stupid kids, all you guys do is screw around! Go kill yourself" like I was expecting (removed)...No prob man, I sure wouldn't give you that kind of crap, since I would be a hypocrite for doing so, I was once young like you... Was what you did immature? Maybe, but we've all done crazy things in our lifetime. I've done plenty of things in the past that scare the crap out of me today when I look back. "(removed) was I thinking!!!?!??" As long as you've learned a little something from this incident, it's all good.... If not, that's bad! I agree that you're probably going to be much better off by bringing the repairs under your control, not the insurance company. You really don't need higher premiums, and the potential legal issues if you guys file a misleading claim! When I was in high school, insurance was way through the roof, and I had a spotless driving record - I never had to make a claim back then, but it would have been horrible if I would have. Once I was out of high school and was around 18, I ended up being too stupid and inattentive to notice a red light... Blew right through the intersection and smacked someone. Now, that sucked! Paid for that for I don't know how long. Use the insurance only if you absolutely need to! I would just order whatever parts you need, or seach the salvage yards... That's probably going to be your best bet, and will save you plenty of money in the long run.

The deductible is $500 so yeah forget that. I was going to try and convince my mom to let me get the psycho rear bumper as a start Don't thnk it's gonna work though.

ABS brakes DO NOT make you stop quickly on slick surfaces. It alows you to keep control while trying to stop. You still need to allow for a greater distance in stoping compared to normal conditions. The difference is compared to no abs on slick surfaces where if you held on the brake you wont stop unless acted upon by an outside force.

As far as "fix it yourself vs. report it", another variable is the actual repair cost. Years ago my sister had a minor accident with my car. She took it in for an estimate first. They asked if it was insured and then quoted over $1,000. I didn't want my only "freebie" (before my rates skyrocketed) used up for so little, so we didn't claim it. The same shop fixed it for $500 cash, exactly the deductible if we'd gone through the insurance...

I could put the new bumper on myself so that knocks off half the cost right there. The only thing I would need a body shop to do is punch out the dent.

Well, I got a new digital camera for X-mas so here's the damage. I washed hte car the day of teh accident and washed it again two days before these pics, but as you can see the state of Michigan did a little overkill with the road salt...very very very dirty, makes the damage look even worse than it is. I'll take a few better ones when it warms above 30 and I wash it.

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Yeah, you can't really tell when the car is as dirty as it is. Sucks though man.Inder

Close up of puncture...the quarter panel is dented as well but as I said, the salt's too thick to see it.

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Dang man. O well, it happens to the best of us.Inder

Man, that sucks, merz. I can't lecture you either because I've done plenty of stupid things for fun with my cars before, too. Now I've learned to just have a little fun in the snow/ice in wide open places with no traffic (the receiving/loading dock area at WalMart late at night is my current favorite place lol)Too bad I don't live near you. I could probably knock out the dent with a rubber mallet or a body dolly for you, depending on how tough it is to reach it from behind. Biggest thing there is to make sure that the paint isn't cracked or broken anywhere. Road salt on bare metal surfaces can begin to cause rust in a day or less. The bumper just has to be replaced which isn't really a major deal, as you already seem to know. If it was mine, I'd honestly wait until spring and fix it myself as long as the paint didn't crack from the dent. With all the orders for the Psycho bumpers here, you'd be really smart to wait for those people to get them, you could probably get someone's original bumper really cheap when they install the new ones. The plastic bumper can't rust, so it really won't hurt anything to wait. The dent can usually be pulled out by a paintless dent repair service for much less money than a body shop, and many of them will come to your house to pull the dent.So if it was me, I'd call around to some local paintless dent removers in the area (see your phone book) and have that done soon. Usually costs about $50 or less for them to fix something like that. If you wait for GenVibers to receive their Psycho kits, you might be able to buy a used bumper for $50-$100. In any case, this repair really isn't all that bad and you could possibly get away with fixing it up good as new for less than half of your insurance deductible. As others have said, there's no way that claiming this on insurance makes any sense.I've encountered the local body shops' dual price quoting system before too. If you're claiming the damage with your insurance company, they quote you a much higher price than if you're paying out of pocket. To be fair, though, when they write a quote for insurance, they have to base the estimated cost off of a data table for standardized repair times and rates. A profile for each car on the market is made to determine the time that it takes to remove, repair, and replace each separate component of every car. They take that time out of a book or database and multiply it by their shop's hourly labor rate to get the estimate. They also have set amounts of materials that are required to repair each component, and they do the same math as with the remove, repair, and replace rate. If you bring in a damaged vehicle to them and they know that it takes their employees half the time to perform the work than what the book/database calls for, they will give you a lower estimate because they want your business and they know that another shop down the street will do the same thing if you take it to them. Also, they might have some paint leftover from a car they recently fixed that matches yours that they can use, so they can save you some cost there. Another expense I always see on the estimates is the cost of the cover for the vehicle to protect it from overspray. They always charge you for a new one on an insurance estimate, but if you're paying yourself, it is highly likely that they have one on hand that's been used before, but will still work perfectly fine so they don't have to charge for that either. There are lots of little things here and there in those estimates that can be cut out and still perform a perfectly good repair job. But insurace always just pays the book rates for everything so I can't blame to body shops for taking the money if the ins companies are perfectly willing to pay it.I know around me, some ins companies have formed business partnerships with some local body shops. What I think happens with these is that the ins company agrees to refer their claims to the body shop as "certified repair facilities" and gets them to offer a lifetime guarantee on the repair work, and in return, the body shop gives the insurance company a nice discount when the ins has to pay for the repair. So it is conceivable that, as in madbill's case with his sister's car, the shop can fix it for about $500, but bills the insurance for about $1000. Now if you can walk in and pay $500 cash to repair it, that shop could offer that same discount to the ins company (they might "rebate" or something like that to get around legal complications). So say that you have a $500 deductible, the insurance company gets the bill for $1000, but because of their "special deal" with the body shop only has to pay the $500 that the shop is willing to actually charge for the work. Now you pay your $500 deductible, which happens to cover the actual cost of the repair, but the ins company puts a $1000 claim on your record and holds it over your head for the next 3-5 years even though they paid out nothing, and charges you a higher premium because you made a claim. Now, again to be fair, it is not every time that the ins company gets off having to pay nothing, but the point is that the amount that they record as having paid out on your behalf as part of your claim is not the actual amount that they paid, even though your record shows otherwise so they can bilk you out of more cash every year on your premium. That's what I call my version of "insurance fraud".

lol. Either way I hate insurance companies and I dont nesicarly trust bodyshops, I've seen lots of shotty work done Thanks alot for the details now I can see where my money will be going. That is an EXTREMELY good idea about waiting for hte psycho kits I never thought of that!!! I dont know of any two toned vibes though getting the psycho kit.