2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Handling, suspension, and brake tuning discussions
akstonbreakfast
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2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Hello friends,
First time, long time. I hope I'm posting in the right place.
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We all know the story: you're deep in the woods with your rugged AWD (ODO: infinity km) when you notice the sweet smell and gentle buzz of a rear tire shredding itself against the inner wheelwell because the rear subframe has the structural integrity of wet dirt and has completely let go of an upper control arm. Classic. "That's okay", you say, "I'll just pick up another subframe and swap it in. $500 tops." But you know very well (from the last time that this happened) that the only subframe left in the world is $1500 and in California. You don't have $1500 or 3 weeks to wait on a part. That's why you patched the one you have, which has failed again, like you knew it would.

Everybody's been down that road, right? Am I projecting?

Here's the specific point of failure:
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And here is my disgusting, blasphemous, just-enough-to-get-to-my-shop-but-actually-I've-been-driving-on-it-for-months temporary repair. 1.25" square tube from one upper control arm mount to the other:
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This is the side that didn't fail, mind you. What the other side's repair looks like is my own great and secret shame--for now.
Last edited by akstonbreakfast on Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Now, the situation certainly seems dire. I'm sure many a Vibe and Matrix have died for less.

...But "design an automotive suspension component" was on my 2023 vision board, so I decided to do something silly.

While I had my old one out, I took some measurements and whipped up a little something on the computer:

*ahem*
Stock Front Corner.png
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Stock Side.png
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Stock Rear.png
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Stock Upper Rear.png
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My design criteria:
-No specialized skills or equipment beyond what a hobby welder might have access to (welder, grinder, drill, hole saw, marker)
-$500 material cost
-Mostly laser cut parts, all of one thickness, that can easily be ordered online
-Constant radius tubing bends (meaning that they can be reproduced with a Princess Auto/Harbor Freight tubing roller)
-Simple "puzzle piece" assembly requiring minimal measurement (note the tabs and slots where pieces join)
-Easy, flat welds wherever possible
-Lots of room for adjustment when installing onto the vehicle (tube bends are tricky)
-Suitable for a good old-fashioned build thread

Ideally, this is a solution (or at least an inspiration) not just for me but for the AWD Vibe/Matrix community... (but, you know, don't try this at home, liability, etc.)

So stick around while I build one of these and test it out!
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joatmon
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by joatmon »

Welcome to genvibe!

Impressive and catastrophic rust , and nice design

I often use car-part.com to search junkyards, and they don't list the rear subframe as a searchable item, but when I searched for differential for a 2003 Vibe, turned up a number of AWD Vibes. Might try that for your area, you might get lucky with a yard near you that has a workable subframe they'll sell you.
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tpollauf
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by tpollauf »

Agree ... very impressive plan and approach. For simply "whipping up a design, it looks like you've done things like this before in the past. Update your profile for us , showing your location! Where has this Vibe been driven most of it's life and mileage? Over the 299999 limit? You need to make sure "zbyers" sees this post as he has replaced several subframes in his family fleet over the years. Looking forward to your progress :D
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
SSizler
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by SSizler »

My rear subframe has not failed yet, but it is coming.
I will be watching with great interest.
2003 Vibe Base / Frosty Mono / Moon & Tunes / Auto / 206k mi / Total Loss 1-23
2006 Vibe AWD / Lava Mono / Loaded w/Leather and Sport Pkg / 150k mi
Many other 2 & 4 wheel toys :mrgreen:
40 years with a wonderful woman / 2 adult kids
SlammedNiss
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by SlammedNiss »

That sure is a lot of crunchy bubblegum.
2003 Matrix Xrs Automatic - SOLD :'(
2011 Rav4 Sport
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Well guys,

Tubing is rolled, laser cut parts are in, shop is clean: all systems go.
I'm back, and it is build time.
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...And not a second too soon, because, in an update that will surprise exactly no one, things are even worse than before.
First, the tube supporting the differential let go
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

AND THEN the entire left side fell down, interestingly causing the opposite tire to lean
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So yeah, it's time to get started
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

About rolling tube:

This will be the most difficult part for anyone attempting to recreate this build because you will either need to do it yourself or find someone to do it for you. I called a few local shops around in my city (London, ON) to see if it was something that they would take on. I wasn't able to find anywhere that had the equipment. That said, I have the equipment, so I didn't look *super* hard. The places that I called were welding/fabricating businesses that came up in google results. I would guess that smaller fab shops of a more "off road/big trucks" flavour would be more likely to have a tubing roller and to be open to doing the job, though I couldn't speculate on price.

If this is a barrier for you, and you don't want to buy a roller because you aren't sure if you'll ever use it again: I'd encourage you to take the plunge and find out how handy they are to have around (spoiler: very)
If this is a barrier for you, and you can't afford to buy a roller or just don't want to: PM me. I can probably mail you the rolled parts.

I have this tubing roller from Princess Auto:
https://www.princessauto.com/en/tubing- ... 0008536708
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You may note that mine has some modifications vs the one shown in the link. We'll cover those.

This one from Harbor Freight seems to be very popular and is simpler, cheaper, and probably as good:
https://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-roller-99736.html

I use mine all the time for round and square tube up to 1.5" without issue. It's exhausting and time consuming, but it does work, and it's incredibly capable for the price. That said, I had never tried to roll 2" tube, and it had some feedback for me.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

About tubing diameter:

Do we need to be using 2" tubing? Great question, especially since I've foreshadowed that 2" would cause some problems.
The answer is No. Any size of tubing will work, within reason. 1.25", 1.5", 1.625", round, square, etc. As long as we bend it to the correct radius, it will locate our front bolt properly and perform its structural job without interfering with any of the vehicle's components.
I designed with 2" round tubing because I wanted to use a size and shape for which rolling dies are included with most tubing rollers. Right away, that narrows it down to 1.5" and 2" round tubing. From there, I wanted to recreate the factory shape as closely as possible, which meant 2".
There is a case to be made for using a smaller diameter because it would make rolling much easier, but it creates problems downstream when mounting the differential. Specifically, the differential hangers would need to use large spacers (yuck) or be made from bent or segmented plate.

I found that a true 2" O.D. wasn't available from my usual supplier (Canada Steel) and could only be bought at Metal Supermarket (The Convenience Store For Metal). The lengths required are 42" and 54", one of each. In 2" x .120" wall, from Metal Supermarket, these would have cost $67.08. A .065" wall was also available for $45.24. The .065" wall is likely the best choice for addressing the above concerns about ease of rolling and is also closest to the factory wall thickness.

Ultimately, I bought 1.9"O.D. x.125" wall tubing because it was $70.00 for a 24' length from Canada Steel, and I wanted some extra material on hand in case I mess up. This being the thickest wall, it would be the hardest to roll and, being less than the full 2" of my rolling dies would deform to a slight lemon shape, possibly the cause of all of my troubles.
tpollauf
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by tpollauf »

I've bent a LOT of heavy wall tubing over the years. I have access to the hydraulic Rigid conduit benders that electricians use to bend Rigid conduit up to 2" (which is just under 2.5" OD). Custom hand railings and similar projects is mainly what I've used them for. What you're doing is very impressive. You better take a lot of notes because it wouldn't surprise me that someone else out there could benefit from this engineering. Keep us updated! ;)
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
SSizler
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Location: Urbandale, Iowa

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by SSizler »

That looks awesome!
After you get it all done and working on your car, please build a second one and send it to me. :D
I would be happy to test your design on a different Vibe.
Plus, it is always quicker and easier to do things the second time....... :lol:
2003 Vibe Base / Frosty Mono / Moon & Tunes / Auto / 206k mi / Total Loss 1-23
2006 Vibe AWD / Lava Mono / Loaded w/Leather and Sport Pkg / 150k mi
Many other 2 & 4 wheel toys :mrgreen:
40 years with a wonderful woman / 2 adult kids
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

tpollauf wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:09 pm I've bent a LOT of heavy wall tubing over the years. I have access to the hydraulic Rigid conduit benders that electricians use to bend Rigid conduit up to 2" (which is just under 2.5" OD). Custom hand railings and similar projects is mainly what I've used them for. What you're doing is very impressive. You better take a lot of notes because it wouldn't surprise me that someone else out there could benefit from this engineering. Keep us updated! ;)
Hey thanks! Do you have any pro tips for bending?
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

tpollauf wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:10 am Agree ... very impressive plan and approach. For simply "whipping up a design, it looks like you've done things like this before in the past. Update your profile for us , showing your location! Where has this Vibe been driven most of it's life and mileage? Over the 299999 limit? You need to make sure "zbyers" sees this post as he has replaced several subframes in his family fleet over the years. Looking forward to your progress :D
It’s a Matrix, I just like this forum better than toyotanation—please don’t kick me out lol. It was bought new in Huntsville, ON and driven around there until I bought it at 143000km in 2017. I’ve had it in London, ON with me ever since—aside from a few cross-country trips and many trips to the US for concerts. I hit the 299999km max in 2020.
It has spent its life in the Great Lakes region with long winters and plenty of salt on the roads. Regrettably, I have never undercoated it. I’ve welded in new rockers once already, and they’re rusted through again. The driver’s side floor pan rotted through a few years ago. The front subframe broke in half from rust… cars don’t last up here.

I think the saying is “don’t fall in love with your horse” :roll:
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

SSizler wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 5:19 am That looks awesome!
After you get it all done and working on your car, please build a second one and send it to me. :D
I would be happy to test your design on a different Vibe.
Plus, it is always quicker and easier to do things the second time....... :lol:
It would be an honour. If you cover my gas, I’ll hand deliver it ;)
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Okay, let's get to rolling this tube.

Starting with the 42" piece, here's what we're making:
Screenshot (14).png
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This is the crossbar that the differential hangs from. Its a very easy, gentle bend, and there's LOTS of room for mistakes with this piece. 42" is much too long--the finished piece will be around 24" after we cut it down later, BUT the extra length gives us room for whatever waste your roller leaves at the ends and ensures that we won't be too short if the rest of the subframe doesn't go together exactly as expected. My roller leaves ~6" of waste either end, which gives me 32" of nicely bent tubing with a comfortable 8" of extra meat to trim as needed.

But how will you know that you've achieved the desired 140.358" radius? Fortunately, you don't have to. You just have to get close. The assembly process is designed to correct for human error by using the car's parts to align itself as we go. It'll be a breeze.

So how do you get close? Look at the two dimensions in the upper half of the above picture: 23.589" and .5". 23.589" is roughly 23-9/16", .5" is 1/2". You can use these to make a crude measuring tool. Cut a piece of wood to 23-9/16", make a mark in the middle, rest your bent tube on your freshly cut piece of wood and measure from the center mark to the tube. If the gap less than 1/2": keep rolling, 1/2" exactly: perfect, more than 1/2": probably still fine but be prepared to make a new piece later.

If you don't want to waste good wood on a single-use ruler, fair enough. You can also use the edge of your workbench as shown below:
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Make two marks on the edge of your bench, a mark in the center, measure as above.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Now comes the hard part.
With the 54" piece, we're making this:
Screenshot (13).png
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This one requires a little more attention to detail because we're going to use the waste sections, note the 6.375" straight sections on either end. First thing, measure 6.5" or 7" in from either end (we can trim excess later) and mark a line all the way around at that point. I used green tape for visibility; a black mark will be tough to see when inside the roller. This is our stop point. We roll until the tape contacts the center die (that is, the one doing the bending), stop, roll back the other way. As you roll yours, you'll find that it becomes harder and then impossible to roll right up to the tape--get as close as you can. Don't worry about measuring until you're into a semicircle/horseshoe shape--we're measuring diameter.

This will be physically tough but easygoing otherwise until about this point:
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If you encounter no troubles, continue rolling while checking the measurement along the center line after every pass. For the uninitiated, the center line is the purple line along the center of the tube in my CAD drawing above. It is also the shiny ridge where the dies chewed up my tubing in the above picture. Measuring from this line means that the measurement is the same no matter what size of tubing you're using, and it simplifies measuring from a curved face. We're looking for a 10.441" center line radius, or a 20.882" center line diameter (much easier to measure). 20.882" is about 20-7/8".

You should end up with something like this:
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If you have a hard time visualizing the center line, and your roller isn't chewing it up line mine is, lay your bent tubing on the ground (I'm assuming you have a cement floor) and move it around while pressing down like you're scrubbing the floor with it. Flip it over, and the scuffed area is your centerline. You can also do this less crudely on your workbench with a file or some sandpaper.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Problems and solutions while rolling tubing:

Once I got past the perfect semicircle shape, my tubing roller started breaking. and breaking. and breaking some more. Though it comes with 2" dies, this wall thickness is a little out of its depth. Again, this might all be because I'm using 1.9" tubing and that room for deformation is translating to insane outward pressure on the dies--I can't say, I'm just a guy rolling. Experts, please weigh in.

Anyway, the first problem I encountered was that I couldn't turn the wheel with my hands anymore. That isn't new, it needs to be turned with a shovel handle for any square tubing over .75", but this became exceptionally hard.

I noticed that things started slipping. The wheel and the chain sprockets are held in place by set screws that sit in flats notched into the shafts that drive the dies. The dies are keyed to the shaft--no problems there.

The wheel started slipping on the shaft. I would tighten its set screws, and then the chain sprockets would slip, back and forth until all of the set screws were stripped. I got new set screws for the wheel, and I welded the chain sprockets to their respective shafts.

That worked until I sheared the shaft off.
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This happened at a point where the shaft had a hole drilled through it for a cotter pin, but I think the real cause was that the wheel stands too far out from the roller. I get why it's that way, mounting on a bench, etc, but having it that far out creates bending and twisting, rather than a clean torsion. I welded it back together and resumed.

The chain stretched and snapped. That was a blessing in disguise because it comes too long from factory and skips teeth, but isn't long enough to remove a link. Before snapping, it had stretched enough to be the perfect length with the broken link removed. YMMV.

Shortly afterward, the threaded rod that pushes the center die down stripped. It was a 1"-13 thread, and I contacted a few fastener suppliers for prices on some fine-threaded 1-1/8" rod and nuts to replace it with. Everywhere I heard back from wanted around $200 for the minimum length of 1-1/8" threaded rod they would sell.

Princess Auto to the rescue again:
https://www.princessauto.com/en/1-1-8-x ... 0008865842
This is the top link pin for mounting tractor attachments. It's 1-1/8" thread and comes with a nut for under $10. I imagine these are available anywhere that sells tractor or heavy equipment stuff.
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I drilled out the old hole and welded the nut in place, cut the unthreaded segment of the pin off, and welded a socket to the top so I could turn it. No more problems with that.
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Finally the driving shaft sheared again, and I decided to rework it rather than just weld it back again. I bought a 3' length of 3/4" keyed shaft for $40 (https://www.princessauto.com/en/keyed-s ... Id=8079733), a couple of impact sockets that fit over it, and an impact extension. I cut the new shafts as short as they could be, welded sockets the ends of both so I could drive the roller from either shaft, and welded the extension into the wheel, making it easy to remove for storage.
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It has functioned admirably ever since.

TL;DR
You can most likely avoid the perils described above by shortening the driving shaft of your roller, welding a socket to the end and driving it that way. If your die-pressing bolt strips, replace it with the upper link pin available at your local tractor store for under $10.
OR if you have the Harbor Freight roller and some extra money, SWAG Offroad can solve these problems for you https://www.swagoffroad.com/products/sw ... ing-roller
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Ordering laser cut parts (which ones?):

Here's what you need, ALL CUT FROM .188" (3/16") MATERIAL
Screenshot (8).png
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I'll make the files available at the end, BUUUT, on the off chance that I die before that happens, take this screenshot to your local laser cutting store and ask them very nicely to trace the shapes :lol:

You may notice that Stock_Front_Plate.dxf and Stock_Rear_Plate.dxf look slightly different than their real life counterparts that I posted earlier:
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I designed two versions: one that replaces the stock subframe, one that replaces the stock subframe AND corrects the suspension geometry for the popular 2" lift kit. Any of us who have tried to install the 2" lift kit on our AWDs will have observed that, while the kit *does* extend the rear struts by 2", the lift is closer to 6" at the rear wheels and narrows track width considerably. Why not seize the opportunity to solve that problem?

All but 4 parts are the same between stock and lifted versions, and the assembly procedure is identical except where noted (upper control arm alignment tabs). The lifted front and rear plate differ from stock in that they move the mounting locations of the upper and lower control arms down by 2" and add clearance for the exhaust.
Stock upper control arm location:
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Lifted upper control arm location:
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^[Whispers] That smaller piece? It's the same one, just flipped upside down.

Anticipating that the stock replacement will be what most people need, I designed it first and then modified it for the lift kit. I'm making the lifted version because my Matrix has a lift. Both sets of files will be made available.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Where to order your laser cut parts from:

In my initial design criteria, where I said "under $500 material cost", I assumed you'd be ordering them online. For a quick, comfortable, no-nonsense experience, I recommend https://app.sendcutsend.com/customer#/quote
The site is easy to use, reasonably priced, and has flat-rate shipping anywhere in North America--$29 at the time of writing.
I got a quote from them for all of the required parts: $391.79, shipped. Pretty good.

But, if you have a local laser cutting store, call around! I got quotes from 7 businesses in my area, just to get a feel for the range of prices, and heard back as high as $725. Most places were around $325, all local pickup.

What about plasma cutting?
Plasma cutting is a lot more common than laser cutting--and usually a lot cheaper.
The thing about plasma cutting is that it can't cut 90deg inside corners--there's always a radius. That's fine for almost all of our joints, but it causes some problems with the Upper Mount Top Plate where it meets the Front and Rear Plates because I've used those sharp inside corners for alignment:
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Same goes for the brackets that hang the differential:
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I intend to rework these as pass-through joints like everywhere else. In the final [computer] file pack, plasma cutting won't be an issue, but as of right now, getting your pieces plasma cut means you'll have to [hand] file these corners out--which you may find to be worth the savings anyway. I got one plasma cutting quote back for $195.

So what did I do?
I went with my go-to local laser cutting store: Ontario Laser Cutting in Tilsonburg, ON http://ontariolasercutting.com/2d-laser-cutting/ who came back with a price of $160 cash for everything.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Upon receiving your laser cut parts:

No matter how confident you are in the designer (I'm flattered, really) it is always good practice to inspect your parts before going any further. Some things look right on the screen but jump out immediately when you've got the part in your hand. I found I had made two mistakes, and thank goodness I caught them early.

1) This part (the back of the differential hanger brackets):
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had somehow been turned into this file:
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and was delivered as such.
Fortunately, it was an easy fix with a 2" hole saw:
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

2) My elongated bolt hole wasn't quite long enough for the alignment bolt's full range of movement and had to be filed out:
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It took about 6 minutes per hole (4 holes) using a round file to remove most of the material and a 1/2" drill bit to smooth out the shape.
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akstonbreakfast
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Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Bolt Sleeves:

To make the sleeves that the bolts pass through to mount the subframe to the car, we need our laser cut bolt sleeve caps and some 1.5" O.D. round tube. I paid $14 at Metal Supermarket for the four pieces pictured, precut to 3", which was longer than I needed. I kept them full length for testing and shortened them later.
reducedIMG_2637.jpg
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The dimensions you need to cut them to are: 1-7/8" for the rear sleeves (making 2-1/4" with the caps welded on) and 2-1/4" for the front sleeves (making 2-5/8" with the caps welded on).
Once you've cut them to length, bevel the edges
IMG_2638.JPG
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Line the holes up--I aligned the nub on the caps with the seam of the tube, as shown
IMG_2639.JPG
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Then weld them together and grind the welds smooth
IMG_2640.JPG
IMG_2640.JPG (877.92 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
You will likely have to grind the entire surface as shown to get the appropriate fit since the tube won't be exactly round, etc. Expect some trial and error here.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

A note about bolts:

While it would have been ideal to reuse all of the factory bolts, and you technically *can*, I wasn't happy with how little thread was engaged on the front bolts when I test fitted later. I'm talking like 2-3 threads. The front sleeves can't be shortened any more than they are while still passing through the rolled arm fully, so we need some (2) longer bolts.

If you have time to wait, the right bolt (M12x1.25 x 90mm, flange bolt, grade 10.9) is easily found online:
https://www.amazon.ca/M12-1-25-Flange-S ... B00MZC1LWW
https://www.clipsandfasteners.com/1-M12 ... m33339.htm

If you don't have time to wait, like I didn't, you'll find that M12 x 1.25 is a thread pitch that NOBODY stocks in anything longer than 75mm, which is the length of the bolt we're trying to replace, and we have to use that thread because we're threading into a hole that's just part of the car--not something we can change.

There are, however, some bolts where thread pitch isn't essential to their function, namely 90080-11511, which can be replaced by a bolt with a 7/16"-20 thread, which is much easier to source locally.
a1_481474B.jpg
a1_481474B.jpg (82.03 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
OR you could ask your local Toyota dealer if they have any 90080-11511 on hand.
I wish I had thought of that before right now. :roll:
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Alignment tabs:

First, we need to bend over the outer alignment tabs--make sure you keep track of left vs right side and bend them opposite of each other
reducedIMG_2649.jpg
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Draw that line, which is just the continuation of the adjacent edges, and cut along it *almost* all the way through
reducedIMG_2650.jpg
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Then put it in the vise and hammer it over 90 degrees
IMG_2651.JPG
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And fill the valley in with weld
reducedIMG_2652.jpg
reducedIMG_2652.jpg (898.91 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
Easy.

This step varies slightly between Stock and Lifted designs. In the stock design, there are 4 outer alignment tabs to be bent: two on the upper control arm ears, two on the front plate. In the lifted design, there are two outer alignment tabs to bend: on the upper control arm ears ONLY. The lifted front plate front plate uses 4 laser cut alignment tabs, while the stock front plate uses only 2.
TL;DR with the lift kit, you do this step twice. Stock, you do it four times.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Next, we weld in the laser cut alignment tabs.
These need to be facing the same direction as the tabs we just bent, to trap the alignment bolt.

Position the alignment tab through the rectangular hole, as shown. Note that the tab has room to move inside the hole.
reducedIMG_2652.jpg
reducedIMG_2652.jpg (898.91 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
Tack it in place from behind and check that the alignment bolt can spin and move properly. If it gets stuck, the tabs are too close. If it's sloppy, the tabs aren't close enough. (lifted front plate shown, stock front plate would have one bent tab)
IMG_2654.JPG
IMG_2654.JPG (818.51 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
Once the tabs are positioned properly, weld them in from behind and on the front face that the bolt doesn't touch.
Grind the rear welds flat and wirebrush. Your end result should look like these:
reducedIMG_2655.jpg
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reducedIMG_2653.jpg
reducedIMG_2653.jpg (830.25 KiB) Viewed 2075 times
tpollauf
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by tpollauf »

Awesome engineering and work so far. Very few of us here would never in a million years tackle a task such as what you're doing. Very impressive and I enjoy watching the progress you've accomplished so far. Keep up the good work and can't wait to see the final product assembled onto the car and functioning ;)
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Next step, Dry Fit:

I found that my pass-through joints were a little tight, so I tapered the male sides of my braces with the grinder rather than hammer them together.
reducedIMG_2648.jpg
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^left side: untapered, right side: tapered

Following that, I put the rear bolt sleeves (the shorter ones) through the upper and lower mount plates. Assembly starts here because this is the most finnicky joint. The bolt sleeve, as mentioned, may need some shaving down to fit properly. Then I put it in place on the front plate
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IMG_2657.JPG
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Some important considerations for this step:
1) even though the upper mount plates are the same pieces for left and right sides, they are asymmetrical, which means you need to assemble them mirrored to each other. If you don't, the whole subframe will mount crooked.
2) the alignment tabs need to face towards the bolt sleeve, as shown in the picture, but which feels backwards when you're doing it.
3) depending on which way you install the upper mount plates, the bolt sleeve will biased towards the front or rear of the vehicle. It should be biased towards the rear.
4) the bolt sleeve should protrude by 1/2" from the upper mount plate
5) the lower mount plate (the one not at 90 degrees to the bolt sleeve) will bite and lock the bolt sleeve wherever you have it, after which you can make fine adjustments by tapping it with a hammer or twisting it with pliers.
Screenshot (22).png
Screenshot (22).png (196.08 KiB) Viewed 2053 times
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Dry Fit (con't.)

Once that's all handled, plop the 5 braces into their slots
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reducedIMG_2659.jpg
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Check that everything is sitting flat and without any gaps.
If it looks good, proceed to put the rear plate on top.
reducedIMG_2660.jpg
reducedIMG_2660.jpg (914.69 KiB) Viewed 2053 times
Check again that everything is fitting properly, give it a little shake, aaaaand get ready to tack it.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Tacking:

This step wasn't terribly exciting. I tacked it together.
reducedIMG_2661.jpg
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Of note, however, I did not tack the bolt sleeve in place. Why? First, that biting lower mount plate holds it tightly enough not to need a tack. Second, being able to turn the sleeve affords us an extra dimension of adjustment that we might need later.
reducedIMG_2662.jpg
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Removing the old frame:

Now seemed like a good time to take the old subframe out, the new one being ready for a test fit and all.
Here are a few more shots of the carnage and my little piece of tube, struggling to hold it all together
reducedIMG_2666.jpg
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Fitting new frame:

Now we install the tacked together frame to make sure it fits and to use as a jig to manufacture the remaining parts. I used the factory flange nuts to align the frame left-right and front-back. If the nuts are centered on the bolt sleeves, you're probably good, BUT you can measure from the crossmember in the last pic to be extra sure.

If you're off by more than the play available in the bolt sleeves, something is wrong. If the something that is wrong isn't to do with the assembly of the subframe, this is where being able to rotate the bolt sleeves comes in handy to correct for that--though you're into some pretty advanced measuring at that point. Whatever you've gotta do, make sure the subframe is straight relative to the car.
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ReducedIMG_2674.jpg
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Marking the curved arms for drilling:

There are 3 ways to perform this step. I'll be demonstrating the method that assumes the least specialized tools and systems of measurement--also the one that corrects itself.

For more advanced fabricators, who have a drill press or a pipe notching tool, here are the measurements:
Screenshot (25).png
Screenshot (25).png (183.17 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
^Front hole to rear plate on left, front hole to rear hole on right, with the minimum length of straight pipe at center
Screenshot (24).png
Screenshot (24).png (152.45 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
^Pipe clocking angle, the two little notches are 0 and 22.5 degrees, which you can align with the center line of the tube

For everyone else, take the horseshoe from earlier
reducedIMG_2647.jpg
reducedIMG_2647.jpg (897.2 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
Cut it in half, and hang the halves in the tacked subframe like this
reducedIMG_2696.jpg
reducedIMG_2696.jpg (856.84 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Marking continued:

Now get your trusty Milwaukee Inkzall (say, isn't that the exact same diameter as that M12 bolt?)
reducedIMG_2697.jpg
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Take it apart
IMG_2698.JPG
IMG_2698.JPG (493.82 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
and thread it into the front subframe bolt hole with some pliers
reducedIMG_2699.jpg
reducedIMG_2699.jpg (964 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
Now move the arm forward and backward against the tip of the marker. The arm's movement is constrained by the holes in the front and rear plate, so the marker will draw a fairly straight line.
Screenshot (26).png
Screenshot (26).png (294.9 KiB) Viewed 2052 times
Repeat this for both sides.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Interpreting the marker line, drilling guide holes:

The next few steps will seem crude, but I promise everything works out perfectly.
reducedmarkedIMG_2702.jpg
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The marker will have drawn something like the yellow line. Since the marker was in the bolt hole, we know that our bolt hole needs to be somewhere along that yellow line. Easy enough. And because the arm can move along the yellow line for now, it doesn't matter where along the yellow line we put it.
But there are other factors to consider, namely the size of the bolt sleeve we intend to put through the pipe. Since the bolt sleeve is 1-1/2" in diameter, and the inside diameter of our pipe isn't much more than that, we need to be fairly close to the middle of the yellow line. The middle will be the highest point: the top of the hump you felt when dragging the arm across the marker tip. I drew myself a crosshair (red line) and added the blue line (center line from bending) for reference.
Important: don't assume that the intersection of the center line from bending and the yellow line is the middle of the yellow line. It isn't. We rotated the tube 22.5 degrees away from the plane on which that was the center line.
This locates the top bolt hole only, and thereby sets the location of the tubing arm.
Once you've located your bolt hole, drill it out with a bit smaller than 1/4". It MUST be smaller than 1/4", otherwise our hole saw will be sloppy.

Next, we need to locate the bottom bolt hole, which sets the drilling angle. This step is just eyeballing, trial and error. Pick a spot, drill through to the top bolt hole, and use the angle of the bit to deduce where your next attempt should be. As long as you're close, the wrong guesses will all be cut out by the whole saw. Only the right guess matters, and you'll know when you've got it.

Here's my first attempt
reducedmarkedIMG_2707.jpg
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The purple line is obviously wrong, but it made it very easy to see where the green line should go
and my second attempt was perfect
reducedIMG_2709.jpg
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Both sides too two tries, no shame in that.
As you can see, the mistaken first attempt is well within what the hole saw removes
IMG_2704.JPG
IMG_2704.JPG (859.47 KiB) Viewed 2051 times
Once we've located these two holes, we can use them to guide our hole saw in accurately cutting this angled hole that would be nearly impossible to freehand.
reducedIMG_2705.jpg
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Drilling with the hole saw is a lot of work. Maybe meditate first, I don't know. It's going to bind and kick and smack your ribs or twist your wrist A LOT. If you have a drill press that can do angles, that's probably the move.

But I am a man of the people, so I did mine with my Milwaukee M12 drill. I went through at least 10 charge cycles.
Here's what I ended up with
reducedIMG_2710.jpg
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The tape gave me a smooth cut line, 1/2" from the bolt sleeve, top and bottom
IMG_2718.JPG
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reducedIMG_2717.jpg
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akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Reinstalling, tacking the arms:

Once you've finished drilling out the arms, install the bolt sleeve into the arms. This should be a friction fit, but don't worry if it's a little loose.
IMG_2710.JPG
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Next, slide the upper control arm ears over the ends and reinstall the arms into the subframe as we did earlier.
IMPORTANT: DO NOT FORGET THE UPPER CONTROL ARM EARS. YOU CANNOT INSTALL THEM LATER.
detailIMG_2722.JPG
detailIMG_2722.JPG (40.18 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
The ears are just going to hang loose for now, but they need to be on the tube before we tack it in place.
Double check that you've got them oriented correctly and on the correct side, since they are side-specific.
Screenshot (30).png
Screenshot (30).png (223.04 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
^Lifted orientation on the left, Stock on the right
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Once you're sure everything is oriented correctly, install the front subframe bolts to attach the arms, through the bolt sleeves, to the vehicle.
As you're tightening them, pay attention to whether the arms are pinching or binding anywhere.
This is the step where all of our previous human error and sloppiness resolves itself--inaccurate bending, hand drilling for the bolt sleeves, eyeballing the drilling angle--it's all gonna come out in the wash right now.

Check again that you've installed the upper control arm ears correctly. Last chance. (Blue arrow)
detailreducedIMG_2719.jpg
detailreducedIMG_2719.jpg (984.27 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
We have 2 positions that we know are correct and that are locked in: the location of the bolts, and the holes in the laser cut subframe plates.
All we have to do is guide our bent tube to the best fit between those positions.
We have 4 primary dimensions of adjustment to accomplish that (Red arrows):
1) The arms can rotate relative to the subframe plates
2) The arms can move forward and backward relative to the subframe plates
3) The arms can move up and down relative to the bolt sleeve
4) The bolt sleeve can rotate in the arm, moving the bolt hole (slot) relative to the arm
And 2 more secondary dimensions of adjustment (Purple arrows), that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary because they compromise one of our fixed positions:
5) The subframe can move up and down relative to the rear bolt sleeves
6) The rear bolt sleeves can rotate, moving the subframe forward, back, left, right, and at angles relative to the vehicle.
Again, these last two get messy. Only for those playing on expert mode.

Tightening the bolts down will do 95% of the adjustment automatically. The most you're likely to have to do is tap the end of the arms up or down along the bolt sleeves.
You'll know you've found the right position when the front bolt sleeves are tight to the vehicle and visibly straight.
Here are some pics from the future of roughly what you're looking for:
Screenshot (31).png
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Screenshot (32).png
Screenshot (32).png (627.48 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
Stay tuned for a "How To Replace Your Rotten Subframe Mounts (Front and Rear!)" thread. Much smaller project than this.

Once you're in the right position, tack the tube where it passes through each plate to lock everything where it is. We want to do the least welding possible with the subframe on the car, so 4-8 tacks per side is plenty. I put a thick towel over the gas tank to insulate it from sparks and my arc from gasoline vapors. Taking the gas tank out would have been better. Use your judgement. It is also good practice to disconnect the battery.

Tacks done on the vehicle:
reducedIMG_2720.jpg
reducedIMG_2720.jpg (740.83 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
If you left your gas tank in, DO NOT tack the front bolt sleeves to the arms while the subframe is on the vehicle. If they're tight enough for a friction fit, great: take the subframe off and tack them on the bench. If they're too loose for a friction fit: trace the edge of the hole in the tubing where they meet so that you can find that exact position again on the bench. DO NOT BLOW YOURSELF UP TRYING TO SAVE A STEP. I know the temptation is strong. I too have felt it.

Tacks done on the bench:
IMG_2725.JPG
IMG_2725.JPG (994.27 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

For those supremely confident in their measurements and assembling entirely on the bench without jigs, here's a shot of those notches lining up with the centerline:
reducedIMG_2721.jpg
reducedIMG_2721.jpg (905.76 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
While including this feature was a flex, I kneel before anyone brave enough to use it.

For intermediate-level or less mobile folks who don't want to use the car as a jig but wouldn't mind making one on the bench, here are the measurements you need to do that and assemble it upside down:
Screenshot (33).png
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Screenshot (34).png
Screenshot (34).png (130.6 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
However you do it, I highly recommend a test fit on the car before you move on to the next step.

Mine at this stage vs the original:
reducedIMG_2722.jpg
reducedIMG_2722.jpg (846.85 KiB) Viewed 2039 times
Keep in mind mine is supposed to look taller--it's lifted.
tpollauf
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by tpollauf »

That last photo really puts it in perspective! Do you even get any time to sleep? :o This reminds me when I was in my 20's (40 years ago!) and got by on very little sleep while working a full time job, going to college, and restoring old muscle cars … and a girlfriend too. Simply amazing & admirable. Keep up the great work ;)
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Okay, time to wrap this baby up. We've got the diff hangers and crossmember, sway bar mounts, torque strut/bushing arm thing, weird hose, and reinstall left.

Locating the crossmember:

First thing is to check clearance with the diff and associated components
reducedIMG_2724.jpg
reducedIMG_2724.jpg (949.36 KiB) Viewed 1958 times
Bushing looks good, easily installed by hand, which tells me it'll be appropriately tight with the steel sleeve that it normally has.
reducedIMG_2727.jpg
reducedIMG_2727.jpg (930.66 KiB) Viewed 1958 times
Nobody's clashing here, that's good.
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reducedIMG_2728.jpg (981.41 KiB) Viewed 1958 times
This looks right...
IMG_2726.JPG
IMG_2726.JPG (921.08 KiB) Viewed 1958 times
^this is a little closer than I'd like. Luckily, the measurements worked out that the diff should be 1/2" forward anyway, so this gets resolved by adding a 1/4" spacer either side of that arm that goes to the bushing.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

The crossmember that hangs the diff should be 7-3/4" off of the front plate at center. For a 2" tube, that means lines parallel to the plate at 6-3/4" and 8-3/4", as shown.
reducedIMG_2736.jpg
reducedIMG_2736.jpg (902.54 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
and our points along those lines where it is the shortest distance to the corresponding line on the opposite tube--that is, where the center line of the crossmember will go.
reducedIMG_2734.jpg
reducedIMG_2734.jpg (950.98 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
After that, measure the distance between points on the top line and between points on the bottom line. Red to red, blue to blue, as shown.
marked_reducedIMG_2743.JPG
marked_reducedIMG_2743.JPG (940.72 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
Your measurements should be around 24", but they will vary depending on what happened in the earlier steps with tube bending and the self-correcting assembly step. As long as you're the correct distance from the front plate, everything else will work itself out.
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Now we're gonna do the same trick as before, locating sets of holes and using them to align our hole saw to notch the tube.

Take the slightly bent tube from earlier, and make sure you can see the bend center line on both sides. I rubbed it on the ground so the line shows up as scratches:
reducedIMG_2737.JPG
reducedIMG_2737.JPG (781.79 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
Now pick a spot somewhere near the middle (yellow line). Mark it all the way around, as close to perpendicular to the bend line as possible. I used a piece of tape in later pics.
reducedIMG_2626.JPG
reducedIMG_2626.JPG (445.1 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
From the line in the middle, measure out HALF the length of the point-to-point measurement from the last step the add HALF the diameter of the tube you're using to account for what the hole saw will cut away. Since I'm using 2" tube and a 2" hole saw, my measurements were HALF +1, as shown.
marked_reducedIMG_2743.JPG
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marked_reduced_2IMG_2743.JPG
marked_reduced_2IMG_2743.JPG (951.49 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
marked_reducedIMG_2737.JPG
marked_reducedIMG_2737.JPG (813.08 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
akstonbreakfast
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Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Once the holes are marked, drill them out with a 1/4" or smaller bit to guide the hole saw
reducedIMG_2738.jpg
reducedIMG_2738.jpg (771.94 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
and then drill through with the hole saw
reducedIMG_2739.jpg
reducedIMG_2739.jpg (955.38 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
You'll get something like this (you can see from the two little notches that I forgot to add the half tube diameter)
reducedIMG_2741.jpg
reducedIMG_2741.jpg (976.71 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
which you can clean up to look like this
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IMG_2742.JPG (783.26 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
and finally fit into place like this
reducedIMG_2743.jpg
reducedIMG_2743.jpg (851.51 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Tack the crossmember into place and test fit on the car:
reducedIMG_2745.jpg
reducedIMG_2745.jpg (973.33 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
reducedIMG_2744.jpg
reducedIMG_2744.jpg (934.27 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Back on the bench, the best way to assemble these hangers is to bolt them onto the bracket that they hang. This way, you know they'll fit.
reducedIMG_2731.jpg
reducedIMG_2731.jpg (955.55 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
reducedIMG_2730.jpg
reducedIMG_2730.jpg (822.68 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
Tack them together and then we'll use the diff to locate them on the crossmember.
The differential (technically the viscous coupler housing) has a little flat part that you can mark the center of, rather than trying to find center of the whole bulky object. Your mark should be centered between the two forward bolt sleeves, which should be 39" outside-to-outside, putting your mark at 19-1/2" as shown:
reducedIMG_2732.jpg
reducedIMG_2732.jpg (900.98 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
reducedIMG_2733.jpg
reducedIMG_2733.jpg (961.69 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

You will note that the diff hangers can rotate on the bolt. The top edges of each face are cut to the same curve as the bend line on the crossmember, so just line them up and tack.
Screenshot (52).png
Screenshot (52).png (994.09 KiB) Viewed 1956 times
Don't worry about these gaps. The bushings are a little thicker than 2", so this is expected. When the time comes (not yet), weld across the gap. If you don't like your first pass, do a few more.
reducedIMG_2747.jpg
reducedIMG_2747.jpg (879.47 KiB) Viewed 1956 times
Now it should look like this:
reducedIMG_2746.jpg
reducedIMG_2746.jpg (989.41 KiB) Viewed 1956 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Sway bar mounts:

This step was some trial and error. The sway bar gets moved up relative to the factory position, but there are so many hoses and straps up there that I didn't try to figure it out beforehand. It fits where it fits, which happens to be right above where it's supposed to go.

Here's what worked for me:
reducedIMG_27592.jpg
reducedIMG_27592.jpg (802.79 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
It's a piece of 1/4" plate, 2-1/4" x 3", with the long side cut to match the curve of the tube, mounted 7-1/2" off of the front plate. I'll add a file for this to the pack.
reducedIMG_2762.jpg
reducedIMG_2762.jpg (907.45 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
reducedIMG_2761.jpg
reducedIMG_2761.jpg (836.92 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
reducedIMG_2760.jpg
reducedIMG_2760.jpg (829.36 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Clearances are tight, but nothing touches.
reducedIMG_27562.jpg
reducedIMG_27562.jpg (722.29 KiB) Viewed 1954 times
reducedIMG_2755.jpg
reducedIMG_2755.jpg (952.17 KiB) Viewed 1954 times
akstonbreakfast
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:02 pm
Location: London, ON

Re: 2003 AWD Rear Subframe BUILD THREAD :O

Post by akstonbreakfast »

Upper control arm ears:

As with the diff hangers, the best way to locate these is to bolt the upper control arm in place.
reducedIMG_2763.jpg
reducedIMG_2763.jpg (838.29 KiB) Viewed 1954 times
Rotate on the bolt to make sure the gap around the tube is consistent before tacking. 2" tube won't have this gap.
reducedIMG_2765.jpg
reducedIMG_2765.jpg (939.04 KiB) Viewed 1954 times
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