P0171 - driving me nuts.

1.8-liter VVTL-i (2ZZ-GE) and VVT-i (1ZZ-FE) engine, transmission, exhaust, intake, and performance tuning discussions
Post Reply
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

This is the "new" Matrix - you can see everything I did to it in another thread in the Lounge.

No engine codes when I bought the car, drove it 30+ miles home with no codes, etc. Replaced the battery, ran the engine (idling) for close to an hour, plus a batch of driving. Topped the tank off with fuel, and within 18 miles, _bam_ - P0171.

Replaced all the quarter inch hoses, which were brittle/cracking, replaced the PCV with an autozone one, plus the PCV hose.

Driving me NUTS. I'm wondering if it was the fuel I put in, or if something was sucked in through the manifold when I cleaned everything. Have not tried a seafoam fogging.

I'm looking at putting in the MAF from the Vibe, just to mark that off of the list.
blue_can
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:21 am
Location: San Diego

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by blue_can »

Have you checked the sensors - specifically MAF, ECT and TP - with an OBD2 scan tool? Assuming this engine is the same as the 07 Vibe (I looked at your thread in the lounge) it would be worth following the troubleshooting chart for P0171 in the Vibe service manual.
'07 Vibe
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

I have a BlueDriver, so I've been monitoring all of it. So far, nothing is yelling at me saying "I'm the fault!". At idle, .2-3 lbs of air (it doesn't get very exact), etc, etc.

Engine coolant temperature sensor seems to be working fine. When car is up to temp, it runs 185-190 (thermostatic relief valve is on the list to replace, but I didn't want to do it all at once).

No clue how to test the throttle position sensor - but the car seems to be driving fine.

I will admit that I spent a LOT of time cleaning the crap out of the throttle body, replacing the screen and gasket. (What the Toyota manual calls the "THLOTTLE BODY" (not kidding. Just noticed that today)

I've just ordered a Denso upstream O2 sensor as well as the PCV valve. At 155k, it's probably reasonable to change the O2 sensor.
blue_can
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:21 am
Location: San Diego

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by blue_can »

Unfortunately this might be an intermittent fault which will be really tricky to track down. I'm not familiar with BlueDriver - I have an Innova scan tool - but since it says it can display live parameters you should be able to use it to look at live sensor data. Does the module have a Bluetooth link to the phone for streaming live data?

I can give you a quick summary of what the troubleshooting chart tells you to look at in order. Here it is -

1. Measure and check STFT as a live parameters. If out of range check vacuum hoses, PCV valve, look for exhaust leaks.

2. Check MAF, ECT and TP. Resolve if any out of range.

3. Check fuel pressure and fix if out of range.

4. Check for fuel contamination.

5. Perform fuel injector balance test.

Yes since the O2 sensor could be the culprit changing that might solve the issue. Maybe also try some injector cleaner.
'07 Vibe
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

It's not intermittent ,that's for sure.

The LTFT is far above what it should be. even the STFT seems high.

Already replaced the bulk of the vacuum lines completely, not just checked.

Fuel pressure isn't easily checkable on these engines. There's no pressure port for the fuel rail.
User avatar
joatmon
Posts: 9734
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:19 am
Location: SMC MD

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by joatmon »

My second vibe would sometimes throw a P0171, seemed to happen if I really gunned it while the engine was cold. Couldn't tell from your post if you tried it yet, but if not, clear the code and see if it comes back
Image
blue_can
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:21 am
Location: San Diego

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by blue_can »

I have yet to work on the Vibe fuel system. But I have worked on other vehicles without a pressure access port. What I've done is to pull of the hose to the fuel rail attached to the supply line from the tank and then use the tee supplied with the fuel pressure gauge to tee off the line. It's been a while since I did this so I cannot recall the exact details but I believe my fuel pressure gauge came with tees and hose stubs in order to take this measurement where there is no access port.
'07 Vibe
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

How high of a fuel trim are you seeing?

There must be an intake leak somewhere. How about the intake hose, cracks?

I had a toyota once that had an intake leak at the injector seal of all places, but that is rare. Since you mentioned you did some work, I would suspect those areas that were moved in the process.
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

I found a slightly squished o-ring for the MAF, and very carefully shoved it into place (that was tedious and awkward).

I also changed the PCV for a Toyota OEM.

I then added hose clamps to the (very tight) new vacuum hoses that I put on the other day (from the VSC)

I haven't done anything to the brake booster hose (it's very tight, and I can't see that it's cracked), nor have I changed the intake manifold.

Now, it's still higher than I want to see, but it's out of the berserk range. (not sure how a leak _at_ the MAF would do that, but changing both PCV and adjusting MAF seal was done at the same time, so can't tell)

That is, I'm still seeing LTFT of 24-28, but now it's varying, rather than staying locked the previous 20 bone cold, and almost double that when the upstream fuel/o2 sensor came live.

What I have left to do is replace the o rings on a couple of items, including the MAF - I just ordered a box with an assortment of sizes, going up to 'pretty darned big'. My current assortment stops at 13/16ths. Not helpful for 22mm ID with a 2mm thickness. Nor for a 36mm (power steering reservoir cap).

I'm thinking I'll go through ALL of the caps and similar and replace o-rings as I go along. This is absurd.

Anyway - back to the sensors. I'm still seeing odd readings, but hopefully not enough to trigger the P0171 again. I'm going to run the tank dry, drop in a bottle of seafoam, and fill up with ethanol free. I may also do a seafoam fogging on the intake manifold/injectors. Not sure if I should do it before or after replacing the manifold gasket.

I'm still planning on replacing the fuel/O2 upstream sensor. Gunning the engine, and dropping it, shouldn't give me 5 volts (pegged at max). All the diagnostic information I've found suggests it should be no higher than 4.8 volts, even after that.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Spoke too soon. LTFT is still better than it was, but seeing a bit over 35 at idle, which is enough to trigger the check engine light.

Oddly enough, it _does_ drop when the engine is at higher RPM's, but seems to still like a LTFT of 25. STFT keeps banging 10.

So, I picked up some sea foam fogger, can for the tank, and the O2 sensor. O-rings are in transit. (Sic transit..)
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Just refilled the gas tank. 92 Octane, non-ethanol gasoline, plus a pint of seafoam.

Best guess is that I got about 32mpg for the last tank, which isn't bad for an automatic transmission in Houston. Better than my last vehicle. I'll have to keep an eye out on that over the next few fill-ups. (I track mileage, always have. It's one of the best ways to spot trends in vehicle problems, esp if you drive a lot like I do. Minimum 1 fill up a week, generally)

So, next is to fog the intake, replace the intake manifold gasket, and then replace the 02 sensor.

I've basically run out of places there could be a vacuum leak.
zbyers
Posts: 1733
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by zbyers »

Have you replaced the intake manifold gasket? (Sorry, didn't read the full thread). If not, take a look at that. Those are common to cause this code.
'74 Thing, '79 El Camino, '83 VW DoKa '91 Vanagon, '03 Base, 04 GT
'06 CRV, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '12 Highlander Limited, '17 Frontier CCLB

Byerscrew Garage, GenVibe Facebook, How-To Index
Everything You Need To Know About the Pontiac Vibe
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Today was...

Fog the injectors - turns out you can't use the seafoam spray with the hose they have with our throttle body intake 'hose'. So I ended up pulling the hose from the front of the valve cover and spraying straight into that. (did create the huge smokescreen. Tasted nice when the wind was moving the wrong way)

Replace intake manifold gasket. Twice. I sheared the gasket the first time - it dropped when I was reseating a hidden vacuum hose on the throttle body, and I didn't notice.

Found that the rear bottom hose was off - even with the clamp, it just slid right off. I reseated that, plus the intake manifold gasket, and STILL have high fuel trims. (I figured even if it was still bad, the trims would change) So, I replaced the oxygen sensor (155k miles, not a bad time). No real change. Swapped the MAF/MAP with the one from my old Vibe - no change, so at least I don't have to try replacing that (removed).

So, I may replace the rest of the vacuum hoses with fuel hose or similar, just to rule them out, and then take the damned thing to a mechanic and say "Find it, and make it go away!" My idle _is_ higher now, it's up to about 740 from the 695 it was.

At this point I'm at the screaming and shouting stage. I can't see it being the spark plugs - they're the normal NGK Iridiums. it's not the MAF - I swapped that. not the bulk of the vacuum hoses. Not the intake manifold gasket (unless I torqued it too much/not enough?). I may have to rent a fuel pressure gauge and buy a vacuum gauge, and cut into some lines - since we don't have actual ports for that purpose.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

The Madstyle1972 manual doesn't really appear to be correct for much of the 2005-2008 cars, the Throttle Body By Wire systems.

The manual is suggestion I should replace my ECM.. :)

There's also a bunch of 'check your EVAP' - not sure how that could be related.

Oh - and the manual says that the P0171 is a RICH condition, with P0172 is a LEAN. Where everyone _else_ says that P0171 is a LEAN.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Here's a six page thread from ToyotaNation

https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/ye ... e.1560930/

Two years, and the guy ended up replacing injectors.

I'm looking at maybe buying a set just to try it.
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

As far as injectors, possible, I have not personally run into this. I have had a bad injector which causes a misfire, but for *all* of them to be low flowing is unlikely. Replacing them never hurts though. They are pretty cheap, and it gives you peace of mind

Not sure what the case is here, but here are lean codes I have dealt with on the past on other vehicles.

MOST OTHER CARS - Intake manifold gasket or TB gasket
Toyota Celica - dry, cracked injector seats caused intake leak
Honda Accord - cracked intake hose. Not obvious at first glance but when you bend it you could see the crack.
Volvo s60 - The brake booster had a vacuum leak in it, 2 diff mechanics could not find the intake leak, but I found it.
Lexus GS300 - fuel pump, the regulator is attached to the fuel pump and a bad o-ring caused low fuel pressure.

You can try the old trick of spraying soapy water around the intake manifold and injectors and see if you get any bubbles or idle change.
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Haven't tried soapy water, did try the carb cleaner trick.

I have two hoses left to replace - one's the brake booster hose, which appears to be in good shape, the other is the bridge hose from the back of the throttle body that connects to the junction to THEN get to the brake booster hose. I think they're both 3/8, and I have power steering hose of that diameter. I'll find out for sure later.

Engine light went out today - LTFT is hitting 21 at speed, and 28 at idle, so it dropped 5 today - possibly because it's been REALLY moist (raining, high humidity) Still higher than I want to see.

I still need to move my toll tag from the vibe, plus my jumper cables, and pull the dash console apart and see if I have wiring to move the inverter. Also need to change out the 12v in the storage bin for a dual USB charger. (plus see if I can fix the storage bin cap I have. The hinge was broken by someone stealing out of my car years ago)
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

For reference mine is +7.8% LTFT after a reset, which I thought was high. Mine is the older 1.8 of course. In my opinion anything over 10 is not acceptable for a stock car. Most cars I have checked are +/- 5% either way rich or lean.
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

I'm not going to let it go, even if it does disappear. I'll just have to put a few more weekend hours into the engine compartment, making sure all the vacuum stuff is as fixed as I can get it first. Then test vacuum and test fuel pressure.

I'm debating getting aftermarket injectors just so I can test and see if they do anything at all. (and it'll let me look at the various o-rings and seals).
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

I have seen as much as a 10-15% variance in injector flow with old used injectors.

A new set would give you some peace. Although, I'm not sure how reliable the china ones are. I got some for myself too planning to go in.
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Zbyers is sending me a set from a used engine of his; I'm going to refurbish them, replace the parts, and try those out. This way I can take my time to make sure everything's as clean as I can get it, including making a 9 volt 'trigger' to activate the solenoids.
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

What is your MAF reading at idle? I would assume it was low with an intake leak.

I get 1.8 at idle in park and 2.2 to 2.30 in Drive (not moving).
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

At high idle, 1227 rpm, I'm at .5 lbs per minute. (My bluetooth doesn't do grams per second)

In reverse, foot on the brake, I'm at .4 lbs per minute.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

With what I did today, with the engine warm, I'm leaning towards a fuel delivery problem, not an air flow/vacuum problem.

Unless the vacuum problem can be _not_ in the engine compartment, I've used carb cleaner on every joint in the system. Zero change in the engine.

To check, I pulled the cover off of the air filter, and sprayed carb cleaner there. THAT caused a stumble and rev in the engine. (Not enormous amounts. Just enough to get a reaction).

So, I'm suspecting that it sat for a bit, I poured ethanol free into the car when I got it home to put enough fuel in for testing, ran it a bunch, and then used a high pressure gas station hose to fill the tank up with 6+ gallons of standard gasahol 87 octane. I'm guessing something moved through the lines and caused a clog.

I may be wrong, but I can't find any vacuum problems, and all the real problematic hoses have been changed. (If I pop one off, the engine then starts to stall).

So, I need to order some beck/arnley gaskets for injectors, and I'll try the ones I've been sent, after doing a quick cleaning of them.
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

Seems you are reading more than I am. My idle in park at 75 degrees is .26 and in D starts at .35 and settles to .32?
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Hmm. I swapped the MAF from the Vibe to the Matrix, and saw no change. I guess I'll pull the airbox off again, and check the filter gasket.
cigvibe
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:29 pm

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by cigvibe »

If you had an intake leak, I would think that you would read less air at the MAF than me.
Cali Vibe 238k Wave Blue

mods
2zz "brown" 320cc injectors - Full time E85 gas - K&N airbox insert - charcoal filter delete - 3" fresh air duct
User avatar
joatmon
Posts: 9734
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:19 am
Location: SMC MD

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by joatmon »

Off topic, but every time I see this thread's title, I am reminded of a joke, like the one that accompanied this bit from robot chicken


dmn.jpg
dmn.jpg (62.48 KiB) Viewed 285 times
Image
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

As long as it's tangentially related to the topic, it's not off topic.

Managed to switch my BlueDriver app to metric.

At idle, 700 RPM, I'm running 1.6 g/s
At drive idle (brake pushed in), I'm sitting at 2.01 g/s (640 rpm)

Hopefully tomorrow I'll be doing some testing - pulling things like the brake hose off, plugging it, etc.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

completely disassembled everything I did prior to the P0171.

Replaced two more hoses that were loose enough that they rotated even with the clamps.

Managed to shear off one of the throttle body stud bolts, and that was _with_ a torque wrench. Now I have to disassemble everything again, pull the stud, and at least put in a bolt.

Found that the spark plugs were NOT in place properly. They were slightly loose. Pulled them out, cleaned threads, re-seated to 17 lb/ft (just being careful).

STILL have the same problem.

All that I can think of left to do is clean up the injectors I was sent, replace those, and see if they make any difference at all. If not, then I'll just have to take it to a "qualified" mechanic to charge me a ton of money to play with a smoke machine or something.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

I guess I could replace the valve cover gasket - I have one now - the previous person had someone that used _orange_ RTV to go across the timing chain cover bridge.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Waiting for the replacement 10.9 throttle body bolts. Apparently nobody even knows what the studs are (size-wise), let alone carries them.

I fished the snapped off nut out from under the car, and I checked it - M6-1.0

So I ordered a pack of 5 M6-1.0 6cm hex head bolts (or 60mm for weirdos in Europe that can't round decimals). Haven't decided if I'll use washers or not, I'll see what it looks like when I'm done.

Basically, I'll remove the throttle body - again - remove the studs, and just use bolts. Not going to trust the other ones, after one snapped.

For anyone else that's looking at torquing the throttle body - a number of sites claim it's 12-13 foot pounds. It's NOT. It's 13 _Newton Metres_. That is, 13n/m. In foot pounds, it's 9.6.

It turns out that most sites even say straight out that the highest torque you can put on standard zinc plated steel 10.9 M6 bolts is 17.0 N/m, and 8.8 bolts is 11.8 N/m. That's 12.5 and 8.7 ft/lbs, respectively.

Watch out for the bolt class/property. You absolutely want 10.9, and those are harder to find. Almost all the easy to get ones are 8.8, including all of the ones at Home Depot and Lowes. I don't know what Canada Tire and Meynards carry.

Interesting part. After all of this, even with only three corners tight on the throttle body, the LTFT has dropped 4% on average, and the variance isn't as high anymore for gunning the motor and letting it drop.

Debating paying a local company to take the injectors I've received and do a cleaning/flow test on them, (using my seals, but maybe using new baskets from them), before sticking them in the car. It may be the seals around the injectors didn't like all the cleaning I did. it'd run me about $100 for all four injectors, and take about a week, max.

BW
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

Latest update -some good news.

I have not yet replaced the fuel injectors, but it's looking more and more like I will need to replace them.

I've had the persistent P0171 code. Until I could get it to a shop, I just lived with it. Last week, I checked the codes again, and found an additional code - P0441, if I recall correctly. (I have it in a report, I'm just not going to dig it out). Basically, something glitching with the purge solenoid/evap system.

Some hours of research later, the number one cause seems to be the gas cap. Never had issues on any of the previous Vibes or other cars - I think I've replaced two gas caps in 30 years, and only one was for my personal vehicle. (another was a rental truck, where the 'cap' on it didn't fit - assholes didn't reimburse me for it either)

So.. I hit O'Reilly, where the caps were a bit more reasonably priced, and picked up a bog standard cap with a retainer. Popped it on, tossed the other into the back seat, and did a full "reset all codes".

It's now been about a week, and the check engine light has not returned. However, the LTFT is still higher than I'd like to see. the STFT compensates enough. (I may do a battery disconnect and full discharge and re-learn) To me, that implies that I still have a lean condition, so back to the fuel injectors I will go.

Gasket on the original cap was a bit compressed, but was intact. I suspect that when the weather was colder, as in when I bought the car, none of the warnings would happen, due to the metal around it being slightly contracted into the seal. When I finished all my maintenance, it was a good 10 degrees warmer, on average.

So, sometimes it's a simple thing. I don't regret any of the time I spent on the rest of the engine, because the only part that I replaced that didn't need to be replaced was the fuel ratio sensor ('upstream' oxygen sensor). After 15 years, I considered it safe to replace, and I'll keep the original one as a spare.

I'm still going to get it to a mechanic shop and pay them to do a full assessment, including locating the pinhole oil leak (I'm thinking this one is the timing chain tensioner), and give me a list of things that should be done.
Bookworm
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: P0171 - driving me nuts.

Post by Bookworm »

More 'eeenteresting'.

I went ahead and added one gallon of E85 (probably closer to 53%, but what the hey) to 9-10 gallons of regular E10 ('regular unleaded'). I knew it was likely to set the P0171 back off again, so didn't worry about it when it did that after about a third of a tank. The reason for this was to try to do some on the fly fuel injector cleaning.

The interesting part is that now that I'm down to a quarter of a tank, the engine light went off. My LTFT is running about 28 (still way too high), but that's with the higher alcohol content in the vehicle. I'm debating spending the way to darned much per gallon (6 bucks or more per gallon) for alcohol-free unleaded tomorrow, and do about 10 gallons of that, and see if the LTFT drops further or not.
Post Reply