Disabling the "Soft stop" in the moonroof

[Jahntassa]

Creating a thread on disabling the "safety stop" in the moonroof, where it pauses halfway through closing. A little history on the topic can be found in the Audio forum: http://forums.genvibe.com/zero...age=1Here's an excerpt from the serivce manual on the limit switches for the moonroof:"For the sunroof switch assembly to activate the sunroof motor and to allow sunroof switch requests, certain conditions have to be present. The sunroof switch assembly monitors the sunroof limit switch inputs. Once a sunroof limit switch is closed, the 12 volt reference will be pulled to 0 volts. The sunroof switch assembly understands the position of the sunroof glass position based on the input combinations from the sunroof limit switches. The sunroof switch assembly uses the sunroof limit switch input combinations to control the soft stopping of the sunroof glass in the flush closed and halfway closed positions and to disable certain sunroof switch requests."Note the "uses the limit switch to control soft stopping." Joatmon brought up a very good point about testing this out, so here's what we basically need.Looking at the harness for the switches, we can see where the limit switches come into play (according to the wiring diagrams, it looks like the logic circuits are in the moonroof switches) Also they show up at the motor harnessWhat we need to see is what the behavior of the limit switches is while the roof is closing. Someone needs to get a multimeter, and see what voltage/ground is going across the switches as the roof open/closes/tilts.In theory, the Limit 1 should go from 12v to ground when the roof closes halfway. Limit 2 is most likely when it's either open or closed all the way, though it could be tilt.Once we figure out what signal the logic circuit gets to know the roof is halfway closed, we should be good.Also, the manual says the logic circuits automatically shut off the roof motor after 10-60 seconds, so there's little chance of overdriving the roof.

[joatmon]

EDIT - things got a bit mixed up in the great 2012 forum software migration.
Jump to the mod procedures if you want to bypass some confusing stuff




the two limit switches identify to the electronics the following four glass positionssw1 sw2 position 0 12 closed 0 0 slid open 12 0 slid halfway 12 12 tilted open You could get rid of the stop halfway by putting in a relay or maybe a couple of diodes or something so that whenever sw2 was 0, then sw1 was 0 also, and when sw2 was 12, sw1 would be passed through like normal.There is a small circuit board behind the switch buttons with a relay, an IC, 4 switches and some misc other components. The IC is labelled MG7060 7E16A THe 12V Denso relay is pn PK2-1840113. The wire colors/pin #s are internal to the control assy, and don't show up/match whats in the wiring diagram

Attached files

[cdFxer]

You coould take a small, say the one with 8 I/O points, BASIC "STAMP" and implement the single touch mod you are looking for. You would only need to hook up 6 wires to the connector. Use the I/O pins on the STAMP as inputs and outputs. The rest is a matter of simple BASIC programming. A STAMP can be had for @ $30.

[Jahntassa]

cdFxer - Are you talking like, replace the whole control board with that? Granted, it'd probably be simpler.

[cdFxer]

No, you should be able to "piggy back" the signals onto the existing wiring. That keeps any protection circuitry in that module intact and makes it eaiser to remove later if needed.For what I was thinking, you will need to solder one wire to each of the switches in that module, then a wire to ground and one to +12V. After that it is a matter of programming. Well before all that it is a matter of programming, lol.

[ToolGuy]

Has anyone successfully done this mod yet???

[joatmon]

I bought a relay from radio shack just for this, but haven't dropped it in yet.

Attached files

[ToolGuy]

When I wrote the sunroof removal and install service manual procedure for GM small cars 4 years ago, sunroofs had their own control modules. Does this one, because this stop may be programmed into the module. I do not know and would have to research it...

[cdFxer]

The pictures Joatmon supplied shows the controller for the roof open/closing. The IC labled IC1 is the controller. I have been unable to determine what chip this is. PLUS I have been waay too busy with my job(s) to go ahead and build the prototype. After rereading Joatmons post, it might be possible to use relays and diodes to accomplish this.

[ToolGuy]

Here is a GM serv manual pic of the Sunroof Control Module, it resides next to the motor #3... Who knows maybe you can tap into it to do this.

Attached files

[ToolGuy]

From the serv manual again. Maybe this will help. Now build it already! Just kidding!

Attached files

[joatmon]

When the glass is sliding closed and it hits midway, the relay in the switch module clicks off. I think the limit switch is used to tell the switch module to stop halfway closed. If the switch module was not also the control module, there would be no apparent need to run the limit switch outputs back to the switch module.Anyway, I was thinking of taking a 12V SPDT relay, running the coil between +12V (IGN) and limit switch 2. (tapping into SW2 signal, not cutting it. Would cut the SW1 wire though. ) connect the common of the relay switch to the limit switch one signal going to the switch module, connect the normally closed side of the relay switch to limit switch one coming from the sunroof motor, and connect a ground to the normailly open side of the relay switch. probably go for it this weekend, will let you know if it works or not.

Attached files

[cdFxer]

Uhm, Joatmons picture IS the controller. It is just called the "Sunroof Switch Assembly" in your service manual. The "ECB" mentioned in the "Sunroof Motor" is probably some sort of overload protection and interconnects on a PCB. How do I know this? Trace the wires to the switch/controller. The red and green wires are across the contacts on that relay (RT1?), so there can not be much "controlling" going in the motor itself. They are probaly calling it a "controller, even though all it has is the wiring interconencts for the motor and limit switches. The "brains" are all handled in the "Sunroof Switch Assembly".Also interesting, your schematic shows map light switching being handled in that controller board as well. Moon & Tunes packages do not have map lights normally, right?The service manual I have from the 04' Matrix shows the only thing at the motor are the limit switches and thermal protection for the motor. This matches exactly the controller in Joatmons pictures and my 04' Vibe. Perhaps your manual is newer than mine?

[cdFxer]

One more thing, the 04' Matrix manual has no "ground" connection from the motor-the relay on the controller/switch is using the NC and NO contacts to form a reversing function. So in one direction the motor will have +12V/0 on the G and R leads and in the reverse direction it will have 0/+12V on the G and R leads.Joatmon, either Im gettin awful sleepy, or I am unclear on what you mean. I think you are going to need a diode to "isolate" the motor leads from the ground connection they will pick up through the relay coil. That will make the relay active during the open cycle and you can use the contacts to open/close the midway switch as needed, or in this case make the controller 'ignore' the middle switch and stop as needed. You would need to wire the relay and contacts in a latching arrangement (may need 4PDT), that would supply the "one touch" open you want. Oh, wait, you just want to kill the midway stop, right? If so, then never mind the latch part.Gad. Ya happy now? This is gonna bother me until a hardware solution is made.

[cdFxer]

Look, you ARE mistaken. The diagram you supplied does not match what is in Joatmons Vibe or my Vibe. Joatmons picture IS the switch/controller module. Have you checked YOUR Vibe? I bet you will find it does not match your diagram either. Does your Vibe have those three parts you mention? Mine does not, Joatmons evidently does not either, nor does Jahntassa's.I back what I am saying with 20+ years of electronics experience and the actual physical evidence. Lets see a picture (From a Vibe) of these three parts! I would be happy to see just a picture of this third component you mention that is the control module.

[joatmon]

well, I don't know what is a controller and what is a switch assembly. I do know that the relay in the pcb behind the switches clicks audibly when the glass is closing and it hits halfway, and the voltage on the wire identified as limit switch 1 goes from 0 to 12 V. Empiricaly, it appears that SW1 going to 12V causes the PCB to make the relay let go, which causes the sunroof to stop. I figure if I can keep that pcb from seeing SW1 go high at halfway closed, then the glass won't stop on the way closed. It would be slick if there was an easy way to mechanically modify the sunroof mechanism to prevent SW1 from sensing the midpoint. Maybe a hole somewhere that could be filled in, or a bump that could be filed off or something straightforwarrd like that, but it would probably require someone disassemble the ceiling in their car to figure it out, which is more trouble than it is worth to me at this time. Anyway, cool that this thread has been revived, because now maybe I'll motivate to try something. I have a spare switch module controller doohickey thing, so if I (removed) up one I can still go back, as long as it doesn't cause some sunroof disaster

Attached files

[ToolGuy]

To see the control module you have to lower the headliner have you done this? Or have you just taken the switch out and apart which is easy to do? And no I have not lowered my headliner, I have no reason to do that, you guys are the ones interested in the mod more than I am. I can see I have a roof and of course the switch, which is the above post pic. Lower yours and tell me what you have.... I am only speaking from experience that roofs have switches, control modules and a motor. A switch is a switch and if you want to call it a controller go ahead. But a switch and a control module are not the same. BTW, the above information came from the GM electronic Service Manual used by the GM technicians found at esi.service.gm.com under 03, 04 and 2005 Vibe Sunroof removal. Nuff said! Good luck! Joatmon if you need my info IM me...

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by MiVibe-ToolGuy »Joatmon if you need my info IM me...Thanks, I have the printed 2003 service manual, which I got off ebay a while back. I'm just looking for an easy way to do this, I figured the thing with the switches on it is easy to get out, and I bought a spare (also from ebay) to mess with a couple of months ago. I'll try the insert relay thing, and if it works, then it's about a $5 mod, which should eat up my mod budget for the summer, but the extra 37 HP will be well worth it

[joatmon]

A while back I found someone had a softcopy of the matrix manual on line, so I grabbed it. The attachment is the wiring diagram for the moon roof according to Toyota. It shows a slightly more detailed schematic of the device that has the switches on it, and it calls the thing "Moon roof control relay and SW" Not seeing another device as a just a "controller" though.looks like the limit switches are ground when closed, or just open. I measured 0 and +12V, but it must have been pulled up to 12V by the controller/sw assembly when the limit switch was open.The matrix manual is broken up into hundreds of separate PDFs, I need to look at all the various files to see if there are any clues to how to keep limti switch one from noticing the halfway point. Maybe I'll look more into that approach before I go after inserting a relay. Would be nice to come up with a zero cost option.

Attached files 036mr.pdf (25.2 KB) 

[joatmon]

here's another section to ponder over

Attached files i740001.pdf (34.6 KB) 

[cdFxer]

Hmm, looks like the testing procedure for the thermal overload device in/on the motor. Oh yes, be careful if you want to supply voltage to or "ground" a signal to/from the switches on the controller board/switch assembly OR from/to the limit switches. They are pulled up on the controller/switch assembly board by onboard resistors. They could take being "grounded" but if you supply +batt V to them and close another switch-! Clear as mud?Im wondering if you could take a relay with a diode in series with the coil, so it only actuates when the motor is closing the roof/tilting closed. Then use the contacts to "bypass" sw1. That dog gone 'soft touch' feature has me a bit aprehensive about this 'simple' fix. I hope to try it this weekend. IF I can find my 12V relays. All I have in stock right now are 48V and 120/240/480 stuff.

[joatmon]

I was going to use +12V ign and the signal from SW2 on the relay coil. When SW2 was ground, the relay would activate. Would cut the SW1 line, run the common contact of the SPDT relay to the SW1 line going to the switch module/controller, run the normally closed contact to the SW1 line from SW1, and the normally open contact to ground. when SW2 was open, (or ign off) the relay would be unactivated and the SW1 signal would pass through the relay unchanged. When SW2 was grounded, (which occurs when the glass is slid) then the relay would activate, which would connect SW1 line going to the switch/controller to ground, the same as if SW1 was closed. This would make the switch/controller assy. not notice when SW1 opened when the glass is halfway.the test procedure PDF shows the actual limit switches, indicates that the limit switch button pushed in makes contact, sends a ground signal to the controller. That means that when the glass is slid open, there is something that pushes SW1 in, but thee is a hole in that thing such that at halfway, it lets SW1 open. To mechanically disable the soft stop, you'd have to find that hole and fill it in. I was hoping the logic would be reversed, that there would be a bump somewhere that caused SW1 to open. was imagining that it would have been easier to remove a bump than to fill in a hole. Can file off a bump, but have to epoxy or weld up a hole. Now all I have to do is figure out where I put that spare switch assembly after I took it apart back in March

[cdFxer]

Hmm, its on the bottom underneath everything else.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by cdFxer »Hmm, its on the bottom underneath everything else. It's always in the last place you look (unless you're stupid) Anyway, found it, put it in and it works like I thought it would. Got to admit though, after all this debate, it's fairly anti-climactic, it doesn't stop half way when closing anymore, but it's not like there is some really cool new thing to play with.Anyway, I used a Radio Shack SPDT relay, PN 275-241A, think it cost about $4US. I tack soldered three wires on the PCB, one each for IGN, SW2, and GND. Used IGN and sW2 on the realy coil, GND to the normally open contact. Cut the wire for SW1, ran the PCB side to common, connector side to normally closed. The attached diagram shows a modified version of the diagram out of the matrix manual PDF attached above, I added a relay and the three wires shown as blue.The SW1 wire is a bit stiff, so I put in a bit of extra wire on the PCB side so the relay could sit over the lamp part of the assembly, there's not much room over the switch/pcb part when you put it back in the car.so here's a question for you, would it work if instead of a relay I jsut put a single diode between SW1 and SW2, allowing current to flow from 1 to 2? Think that would be enough to pull SW1 singal low whenever SW2 was a ground? Sure would be a lot easier mod, and you wouldn't have to cut any wires, just solder a diode on the PCB. Guess it depends on what the IC interprets as a ground. if it has to be zero volts, or is a single diode drop above ground still good enough. Hmmm, wish I had tried that before I started cutting wires

Attached files

[cdFxer]

Ah I see now what you were talking about! It looks to me like a diode across those inputs would do what you wanted since the inputs are pulled 'high' normally anyway via the resistors. Could not do any damage either.

[cdFxer]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Was just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel at work when I get ANOTHER project in addition to my regular job. Ive got to automate testing of the heater tanks for the new model my employer is coming out with. So far I will have to rework part (if not most) of the holding jig for the tank, interface and automate a Hi-Pot and high accuracy DMM (no clue why they needed this expensive monster for this-they about died when I said I could do the same thing with a $70 meter, lol), design all the crap to do this and write the program to run it all. Wheeeee. Looks like the %^&#&^$% one touch open/close project just got another 6 month boot. Got an idea for it using latching relays though Bit more expensive, but it can be had much sooner, lol.

[joatmon]

A diode works just as well as the relay did. A pack of two diodes from the shack costs 59 ¢ I soldered the diode across two of the terminals on the circuit board. Didn't take a pic of the actual diode in place, but this shows where I put it (and orientation)

Attached files

[cdFxer]

Hehe, sure looked to me like that would work. Good job!

[cdFxer]

Ok, finally squeezed in a bit of time to work on this. Sort of. Before I put the PLC 'brain' into the latest project at work, I did a little mad scientist work. I soldered leads to the existing buttons and relay on the control/switch board and ran them to a PLC with a program I wrote that should work. In short, it did. Of course, a 4" X 6" PLC is not only a bit large and massive overkill for this, it was a proof of concept. I just went very simple and used short timers to do the work. Of course me sitting in my car in 50degree weather (and raining) with what looked like something from a blown up Radio Shack brought about some stares.....told em' all it was just FM...

[glassman]

what type of diode did you use?i can solder but don't know the rating or type you used

[joatmon]

I used a Radio Shack P/N 276-1101 (1N4001) basic small diode, rated at 1A continous, but I doubt it sees anything close to that. package of two incl. tax less than a buck.

EDIT - Here is a better description of the soft stop disable mod:

1 Remove the one screw in the sunroof control cover, then pull the whole cover off (If you try to pry up just the clear plastic lens you'll mess it up)

srcmod1.jpg (15.53 KiB) Viewed 7080 times

2. Remove the screw that holds the sunroof controls to the headliner and pull the controls out, disconnect the one connector and take it to a better place to work on it.

3. On the back of the sunroof controls, there is a black rectangular box that holds the control circuit board.

srcmod2.jpg (12.49 KiB) Viewed 7080 times

It may be possible to remove the two ("C") screws and then unhook the four ("B") tabs to take the back off the black box without removing the black box from the rest of the assembly, but I unhooked the four ("A") tabs to pull the black box out of the assembly, then took out the two ("C") screws and unhooked the four ("B") tabs to open the thing up.
NOTE Inside the black box there are four tiny white plastic pieces that may (will) come out of place if you take the circuit board out of the case, and these are important, so don't lose them.

srcmod4.jpg (20.22 KiB) Viewed 7080 times

4. Solder a diode between two terminals on the circuit board. Pay attention to the polarity, a diode is directional, the silver line on one end has to be connected to the correct terminal. Solder it in in such a way to allow the black box cover to fit back on ok.

srcmod3.jpg (15.58 KiB) Viewed 7080 times

5. Test it out before you put it all back together
6. put it all back together (and don't forget those little white internal pieces I warned you about)

[ragingfish]

So is there any chance of this becoming a reality?

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by ragingfish »So is there any chance of this becoming a reality?the diode to disable the soft stop does work, that's the way mine has been since august. When I first did it I still expected it to stop halfway closed, and found I would still press/release/press even though it didn't stop on it's own. I bet I'd find it a pain in the whatever to go back to having the halfway stop now. a one touch open/close would be nice, but it's not important enough to me anymore to put any effort towards.

[cdFxer]

The one-touch open/close I am/was/whatever working on has hit some snags. Mainly: Price. My initial design would run about $40~50--as a kit no less! Waaaay too much. So I went back to the drawing board. I am thinking a "piggy back" add-on to the existing switch/controller board (yes in the Vibe they are one in the same, no matter what you may read here) would be the best. I refuse to put cheap switches on the &$%&$ thing, so if we use the existing setup, that would be the best bet. But now that raises the issue of having peeps solder the thing in. Blech.Maybe it is the winter blahs, but Im not liking this project very much right now. Plus work has me coming and going. I, hopefully, will be more gung ho come spring-heck thats when I open and close it anyway

[the_nite_owl]

Reviving an old thread.My brain is too fuzzy to re-read the entire thread and try to understand all of the interactions of the switches so I pose this question instead.To do one-touch operations could you not use a simple timer to drive a relay providing power at the factory open/close switch? When the switch is pressed it latches the relay providing contact in the direction pressed for x seconds and thereby fully opening or closing the moon roof. I have to look over the schematics or take a look at the switch to see if it is more complex than a simple contact but even if it did something tricky like reversing pos/gnd it could be accomplished with a relay and the 555 timer circuit could be adjusted to the approximate number of seconds to fully open or close the roof.I assume that the system already has a cutoff so that if you held the factory switch in one direction it does not keep trying to drive the motor so all you really need to do is automate the holding of that switch. Could get fancy and do a crossover from each side of the switch so that if one of the timers are active going one direction and the button is pressed on the other side it would cancel the timer again.If the idea is sound, you could either use seperate buttons for one-touch operations or you could use the factory button and setup the cancel option so that you have control over opening/closing only partway if you like.I did a latching timer circuit like this a long time ago to make a simple alarm system for my old motorcycle after someone had tried stealing it once. Never actually got it installed but I got the circuit working and gave myself a pat on the back even if it is a simple circuit. I have done lots of electronics assembly work but am only self taught for design so...Great info on the diode to remove the soft stop I will be using that myself when I get time and it is of course a must if my idea above is to be used for one-touch closing.If someone more experienced than myself could come up with a simple circuit that would only latch if the button were held less than a predetermined time it would make a much nicer mod. It would then work as the one button down for the driver window. One quick press would latch it to do the whole opening but holding it down for more than say 1/2 second would not latch it and let it move only until you released the button.Lemme know what you think. Would love to have a mod like this.Same thing could be applied to passenger side windows at least for one-touch DOWN. One-touch UP would be dangerous without some type of pressure sensor on the window.Ciao!

[joatmon]

I think that the feature I would like the most would be a one touch auto close on the moonroof, and it seems like that would be an unsafe thing to have, like an auto up on the side windows.

[the_nite_owl]

Yes, that occured to me after I posted. One touch open would be great but close could definitely be unsafe.But hey, we could take the method I described and apply it to all windows and optionally the moon roof to do a one touch open that opens up everything at the same time.Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I think that the feature I would like the most would be a one touch auto close on the moonroof, and it seems like that would be an unsafe thing to have, like an auto up on the side windows.

[cdFxer]

Yes you could use a timer. The motor is thermally protected. Mine shuts off when the limits are reached in some modes but in others, the control still draws power if held down. Using timing functions in a microcontroller (PIC 16xxx series) was my plan, along with a custom PCB so it would be plug and play... Going on a year later, I've done nothing new with the project. I simply do not have the time. My poor Vibe is crying for some new stuff, but it just hasn't happened..

[zionzr2]

This was just added to the Mod Index!

[LedFootin]

I just did this mod yesterday and Hoo Raahh! I've hatted that soft stop since day one. It was very easy, in and out in fifteen minutes. You were right about the little white actuators, they went fling. Found them all though.Thanks!

[snouter]

I appreciate this thread describing this DIY project and especially joatmon for the great pics and instructions! I had this bookmarked for a while and finally tried it last night on my Matrix after getting the $0.50 diode from Radio Shack. Today was the first day I had the mod in place and each time I parked the car I would look up unbelievingly while the sunroof closed without stopping. I found the time consuming aspects were trying to be careful not to break the plastic things involved including the main unit (a couple tabs on the long sides need to be pressed inward for easy removal from the headliner) and the tabs on the circuit board cover. I used a really small screwdriver to pry the cover off that. For the soldering step, I put a little flux on two trimmed wires (not sure if that matters) and bent them so the wires were snug against the stock soldering and that helped the diode stay in one place while applying the solder.Thanks again!

[Chuck McKnight]

I am definitely going to be trying that diode trick soon. That soft stop has been the only thing truly irritating about the Vibe so far.I also love the idea of a single button to open it all up. I wouldn't want to use the moonroof button though. I'm thinking maybe the rear-right window button would be good, as I can't think of an instance where I would want that window to be open but not everything else.

[Chuck McKnight]

I just got back from Radio Shack. The guy at the counter asked me what I was fixing. I got a rather blank stare as I tried to explain what I was doing, lol.

[Chuck McKnight]

Question for those of you who have done this mod before. How exactly did you get the control cover off? I took the one screw out, but it's still holding firmly in place. Is there a release somewhere I'm missing? Maybe I'm just being too gentle with it, but I don't want to pull it too hard and break something.

[silverbullet]

BBeen a while since I did it but I think I had to pry it off. To get it to fit over four clips on the sides

[djkeev]

Funny what people get all irritated and their shorts in a wad about!Having to release the button and push it again is just so time consuming and aggravating!?!?My line of thought is that it was put there for a very good reason, auto manufacturers don't spend money on a feature that doesn't have a very good purpose attached to it. I am guessing it has some safety factors associated with it. To each their own though! Enjoy your mod, seems like a lot of work for such an insignificant problem.Dave

[Chuck McKnight]

More irritating than the action itself is the fact that we have to put up with it because they don't think we're smart enough to check if a passenger has his head through the roof before closing it. It's a nanny feature. The actual level of inconvenience it causes is irrelevant in light of the ideology behind it. Just my $0.02.

[Chuck McKnight]

One YouTube crash-course in soldering later, and we're in business. The diode trick worked perfectly. Thanks for the write-up!The only difference is that those diodes now cost more than twice what they did in 2003! Speaking of which, I have an extra diode that I'm not going to need. If anyone wants it, I'd be happy to mail it out to you (free). Just send me a message with your address if you're interested.

Attached files

[knightrace]

how long did it take to do this? i have found the stop annoying as well. owned several cars with a sunroof and they never had a stop.

[Chuck McKnight]

Well, I ended up kind of doing it in sections spread out over several days with the removal of the controls, the disassembling thereof, teaching myself how to solder, and the actual modification/installation. But I'd say if you already know what you're doing with soldering and can just do it all at once, you should be able to get through it all in under half an hour.Want a diode?