Valve Adjustments?

Discuss any maintenance you've done to your Vibe & Matrix and ask how to perform maintenance on your vehicle
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joatmon
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Valve Clearance inspection

Post by joatmon »

Today I checked my valve clearance. My 03 base has 128,625 miles on it, so I figured it was due. I had no performance or noise issues that made me think I needed a valve adjustment, but it had been on my list of things to check for a long time. Turns out I can add this to my growing list of unnecessary maintenance performed on the Vibe, which is a good thing.It's pretty straightforward to do the check. The valve cover gasket is a nice sturdy rubber thing, so although I had bought a new one just in case, I re-used the original one when I put it back together. Only needed a 10mm tool for everything, except the long stud for the plastic engine cover is a 12mm.I'd do a how-to, but it's pretty striaghtforward, and is well covered already in the attached pdf, just skip steps 10-15. I didn't do the "seal packing" 16a/b, but I'll watch it closely for leaks and if so, it won't take long to open it back up to deal with. I'll hold on to the new gasket I had bought, if I get a leak then I'll go with the new one.The doc says that the tolerance for valve clearance is:Intake 0.15 - 0.25 mm (0.0059 - 0.0098 in.)Exhaust 0.25 - 0.35 mm (0.0098 - 0.0138 in)My feeler gauge set had increments in 1/1000th inch, and of the eight intake valves, one of them was at 0.007", the other seven were at 0.008". The eight exhaust valves were four at 0.011", four at 0.012". So, all 16 valves had clearances within spec, pretty much right in the middle of the acceptable range, so no need for adjustments in my engine at this time. I guess I didn't need to check them, but now I know that they are ok, one maintenance item to check off and one less thing to worry about.I've been running castrol gtx since aabout 3K miles, and in the engine guts I could see, there were no gunk or accumulated crud deposits, the absence of them is also a good thing.

Attached files a040001.pdf (362.8 KB) 
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djb383
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (eh_clark)

Post by djb383 »

Let me see if I can explain away some of the mystery of a "shim type" adjustable valve train. They are very common in motorcycles and are very reliable at high engine rpms. 14,000 + rpm redlines are not too uncommon in todays motorcycles. Old school self-adjusting hydraulic lifters, working a pushrod, connected to a rocker arm, which pushes the valve would never survive at those rpms. Plus, on most DOHC engines, lifters, pushrods and rocker arms are eliminated.A common saying, with regard to motorcycle engines, is "slappy valves are happy valves". On the Vibe "shim type" valve train, the tolerences (intake 0.0059-0.0098 and exhaust 0.0098-0.0138) actually get smaller (tighter) as the miles pile up on the engine. At first, I couldn't understand how tolerences could get smaller as an engine gets older. Here's how it was explained to me. The shims and the cam lobes are extremely hard material and wear, between the two, is virtually nill with proper lubrication. What wears, is the valve seat itself, which is located on the combustion chamber side of the cylinder head. As the valve seat wears, the valve moves up farther into the head, closer to the cam, thus reducing the tolerence (gap) between the shim and the cam lobe. If this gap is reduced too much over time, the valve will be held slightly open and no will longer seal properly against the valve seat. This causes reduced compression and the valve will begin to burn because it no longer receives proper cooling by having good contact with the valve seat.Some noise is perfectly normal. If the "shim type" valve train gets quiet, it needs to be adjusted because the tolerence (gap) has gotten to small. Remember what I said earlier.....slappy valves are happy valves. On the other hand, too much clearance means more noise and the valves are not being fully opened, which reduces performance.All mechanical valve trains "shim type" or "screw & nut type" or "solid lifter type" must be at least CHECKED at some point in time. Checking the valves is fairly easy, adjusting them is more complicated. Should they be checked at 60K? I don't know - but you won't know your clearances until you check them. joat checked his at 128K and all was within spec, no adjustment necessary but that's no guarantee that they all can go that far without needing to be checked. You'll have to make your own call when to check them. Hydraulic valve trains are quiet(er) and seldom need adjustment and are not as efficient as mechanical valve trains.
'05 Lava Tutone base, Pwr Grp, Moon & Tunes, 16" alloys, Auto.....Yep, it's gotta HEMI
MadBill
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (djb383)

Post by MadBill »

An excellent couple of posts on the subject!Allow me to provide an anecdote which speaks to djb's explanation of lash change with time:My previous vehicle was an '87 Pontiac Firefly (Metro/ Suzuki Swift clone) with a single cam 8 valve rocker arm set up. It was recommended that valve be adjusted at 50,000 km. intervals. At 50,000 I dutifully did so, noting that they were significantly wider than spec. Cleverly (!) anticipating future wear in the same direction, I set them right on the minimum and sat back for the anticipated 70,000 km. or so of valve maintenance-free motoring.Alas, about 65,000 km. later, one cylinder signed off due to a burned exhaust valve! A quick check (why did I wait so long?) revealed the exhaust lash had closed down to near zero on two and negative territory on the third. Who knew the %$# lash was going to close down this time? (Or maybe the factory had just set then way wide in the first place, knowing theyt would narrow with mileage...)Anyway, forego sceduled lash checks at your peril...
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joatmon
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (djb383)

Post by joatmon »

Quote, originally posted by djb383 » joat checked his at 128K and all was within spec, no adjustment necessary but that's no guarantee that they all can go that far without needing to be checked. You'll have to make your own call when to check them. yeah, I hope I didn't give the impression that I was saying people didn't need to check them. I should have checked mine earlier, today I finally did it. I am glad that the clearances in mine were within tolerance, but just because mine were ok does not mean that nobody else will ever need to check theirs.
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djb383
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (joatmon)

Post by djb383 »

Hey joat, thanks for spelling tolerance correctly, obviously I can't. I did try spell check but it wasn't working for some reason. Thanks again.
'05 Lava Tutone base, Pwr Grp, Moon & Tunes, 16" alloys, Auto.....Yep, it's gotta HEMI
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ColonelPanic
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (joatmon)

Post by ColonelPanic »

Yep, it would be good for others to check theirs. Although it seems like nobody really shows interest in getting it done. lol!The new owner of my car probably should for sure. It doesn't sound like a lot of trouble for a person or dealer to go through as long as things don't have to be adjusted.
03 Vibe base. Born 10/14/2002 06:07 AM
Auto, Moon & Tunes, power package. 143k
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joatmon
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (djb383)

Post by joatmon »

hey, if I spelled it right, then I got lucky, I didn't notice if you spelled it wrong. I usually have to edit my posts several times to fix typos. The forum software supports some sort of rating thing, luckily the mods/admins have it disabled, because it's supposed to take away points from people who edit their posts. Right now everyone is 100%, percents turned on and I'd probably be @ under 10% for all my edits
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MadBill
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (joatmon)

Post by MadBill »

Ha! I used to cut 'n paste my replies into an e-mail, spellcheck them, then move them back, but my lastest bows-er update (IE 7.0, I think) has an on-screen spiel cheque sew know eye all weighs get it wright..
Atomicpunk
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (MadBill)

Post by Atomicpunk »

One thing that should be pointed out for adjusting the valves is the specs given in the pdf link in joatman's post are for a COLD engine. Some manufactures give valve adjustment specs for both COLD and HOT engines. I prefer adjusting valves on a hot engine since everything is warmed up and expanded, thats where the valve train will be working and rotating.
vibebob
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Post by vibebob »

so, what is the final word on this. if out of warranty take it to Toyota who have several models that use the same engine or to a Pontiac dealer that has just the Vibe ?
no longer a vibe owner"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein.
jasonvibe
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Post by jasonvibe »

I think it foolish to go to a Pontiac dealer because they have only seen these powerplants for 4 years. The Chevy Prisim used a similar engine a few years back. The only ones who really know these engines are Toyota and independent shops near a Toyota Dealer. I have no issues checking them myself and pulling the cams if needed when the engine is cold. I have never seen "hot" specs because the definition of hot is just to vague. Hot is usually determined by oil temperature. But cold just means...not run for 8 hours. I said before. If you can do it...? It is cheaper to do it yourself and rent a car while it's apart and waiting for replacement buckets. FYI...these don't use shims. In fact the whole bucket is changed. Thus reducing the # of parts to produce this engine. Which was a requirement in the this design. I personally like shims because it is a much smaller and cheaper part to replace when compared to a bucket. But what can you do???
2005 AWD PlatinumAlloys, Moon & TunesPower group...just enough to be fun
BoostFrenzy
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Post by BoostFrenzy »

I was thumbing through the service manual and decided to join this thread, my gf's base vibe with 1zz now has 127,000 miles and it's had mobil1 synthetic 5w30 all it's life... but i'm the MOST (removed) person in the world and on a cold start i notice some minor tinny / tappy valvetrain noise which doesn't sound alarming, but makes me wonder if it's time for looking at, it's the kind of thing nobody would ever notice but me... but i'm paranoiddid anyone ever get a quote on this service from the dealer? doesn't do me much good to tear it apart and have to order specific shims when she needs the car every day, on a side note hers doesn't (never has) gotten the kind of mileage i'd expect from an ultra commuter with no power... she gets ~28-29mpg @ 70-75mph w/ cruise control, very well maintained and mpg concious tire pressures... maybe because it's an automatic i dunno
-2008 Corvette Coupe MN6, tuned & tinted... more mods to follow-2007 Mazda3 S-touring hatchback 5spd AUTO, stock & tinted. GF's-2003 Pontiac Vibe base AUTO, stock and winter duty (185k miles)gone but not forgotton...02 Z06, 04 & 05 STi, 93 & 94 RX-7 TT, 89&90&91 Audi 80/90, 02 A4
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Post by jasonvibe »

I get 30mpg on the hwy with the AWD fully loaded with passengers & gear. I live in the hills of N.E.. Where you are I would expect a bit better. Usually poor mpg is due to drivers gasing it around town or the O2 or other sensor is not feeding the correct info back to the CPU. The CPU only does what it's told when feeding the engine. You only get a warning light if a sensor is way out of spec. The valves would account for no more than a 3-5% difference in mileage. Unless they are waaaay out of spec. Is your GF's car AWD? If yes...then don't expect much more. But checking the clearances is straight forward for a confident mechanic. It the adjustment that's a bear. Doing it myself and renting a car for $40 a day & waiting for parts is cheaper than $85/hour to have someone else do it...that's my take on it. I am like you BoostF. I am a bit (removed) on noises and a proper running vehicle. I also use Mobil1 most of the time.
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Post by MywifesGT »

I get about 22-23 mpg city on a 2zz engine. My valvetrain is noisey when the motor is at operating temp at idle. I only have 45,000 miles, but they are hard city miles. Just wondering if i need to check the valves. I noticed the motor over time has gotten louder (tappet noise) at idle on a warm motor.
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Re: (MywifesGT)

Post by djb383 »

The only way to know for sure if they're within spec, is to check'um. Since the valve train is mechanical, not hydraulic, some noise (clicking-ticking) is normal. If the valves are too loose, noise will be up and performance will be down. If they're too tight, bad things can happen (burned valves).
'05 Lava Tutone base, Pwr Grp, Moon & Tunes, 16" alloys, Auto.....Yep, it's gotta HEMI
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joatmon
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Re: (MywifesGT)

Post by joatmon »

If you think your valves are out of tolerance, then check them, it isn't that hard, or have them checked. Or, go test drive a new one, see how it's valye noise compares to yours.
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Derf
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Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by Derf »

Thanks for posting the service manual pages. Project blends in nicely with other around the engine tasks.
Made video showing quick overview on how to complete valve lash check
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U526fHMofak
At 202k miles all my lifters passed, results below in mm based on closest feeler gauge:
Exhaust:
E1 .254 E2 .254 E3 .280 E4 .280 E5 .280 E6 .280 E7 .280 E8 .254
Intake:
I1 .150, I2 .178, I3 .178, I4 .203, I5 .178, I6 .178, I7 .155 I8 .155

Also created excel sheet to log and keep results with car, for comparison during next scheduled check.
Valve Clearance 1ZZ FE.xlsx
(36.8 KiB) Downloaded 244 times
If you need to get replacement lifters the following PDF sheet has the Toyota part numbers based on needed thickness
ValveShimPartNumbers-1ZZ.pdf
(24.32 KiB) Downloaded 417 times
Last edited by Derf on Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
2005 #10,524 Neptune Vibe "Bandit" Auto, Moon & Tunes 235k :D
1991 Pontiac Bonneville 3.8L "Granny's Whip" 142k (33nd Anniversary :o )
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lannvouivre
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Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by lannvouivre »

Derf, you've posted the edit link for your video. Here's the fixed link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U526fHMofak
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Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by Derf »

Thanks, updated post link
2005 #10,524 Neptune Vibe "Bandit" Auto, Moon & Tunes 235k :D
1991 Pontiac Bonneville 3.8L "Granny's Whip" 142k (33nd Anniversary :o )
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schwartzy18510
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (eh_clark)

Post by schwartzy18510 »

An extremely informative thread. I recently used @Derf's helpful YouTube video and valve clearance table document to check valve clearances while replacing a leaking valve cover gasket on my 2003 Vibe base model equipped with the 1.8L 1ZZ-FE engine, front wheel drive, and automatic transmission. Mileage at the time of inspection was 173,925. Here's my numbers, checked with a feeler gauge with the engine "cold":

Intake Cam (.0059–.0098")
  • I1 — .008"
  • I2 — .012"
  • I3 — .008"
  • I4 — .009"
  • I5 — .010"
  • I6 — .009"
  • I7 — .010"
  • I8 — .009"
Exhaust Cam (.0098–.0138")
  • E1 — .012"
  • E2 — .012"
  • E3 — .013"
  • E4 — .013"
  • E5 — .013"
  • E6 — .014"
  • E7 — .013"
  • E8 — .013"
There was only one valve (I2) that was significantly out of spec, although I had three others which were marginally (.0002") out of spec. The clearances on all valves — both those in spec and out — came in on the high end of the given tolerance range, which I initially found quite believable at the 174K mark according to the conventional wisdom of tolerances increasing with wear.

However, @djb383's earlier post in this thread indicates that the clearances on the "shim type" valve train on these DOHC engines actually shrinks with wear, rather than growing over time, due to the wear point being the valve seat rather than the surfaces of the shims or cam lobes:
djb383 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:45 am Let me see if I can explain away some of the mystery of a "shim type" adjustable valve train... Here's how it was explained to me. The shims and the cam lobes are extremely hard material and wear, between the two, is virtually nill with proper lubrication. What wears, is the valve seat itself, which is located on the combustion chamber side of the cylinder head. As the valve seat wears, the valve moves up farther into the head, closer to the cam, thus reducing the tolerance (gap) between the shim and the cam lobe. If this gap is reduced too much over time, the valve will be held slightly open and no will longer seal properly against the valve seat.
While this explanation makes perfect sense to my mind, how does it mesh with my clearance results from an original valve train at 174K miles, which indicates many valves at the max tolerance and a few just outside it? Wouldn't this indicate virtually no wear? After all, @joatmon's results from his Vibe at 128K had most of the valves right in the middle of the allowed range:
joatmon wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:46 am Today I checked my valve clearance. My 03 base has 128,625 miles on it, so I figured it was due. I had no performance or noise issues that made me think I needed a valve adjustment, but it had been on my list of things to check for a long time. The doc says that the tolerance for valve clearance is:Intake 0.15 - 0.25 mm (0.0059 - 0.0098 in.)Exhaust 0.25 - 0.35 mm (0.0098 - 0.0138 in)My feeler gauge set had increments in 1/1000th inch, and of the eight intake valves, one of them was at 0.007", the other seven were at 0.008". The eight exhaust valves were four at 0.011", four at 0.012". So, all 16 valves had clearances within spec, pretty much right in the middle of the acceptable range, so no need for adjustments in my engine at this time.
For sake of context, I run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synthetic 5W-30 motor oil at 5,000-7,500 mile oil change intervals and baby the car most of the time to feed my hypermiling addiction. Car gets 28 MPG in mixed driving with my wife behind the wheel and two kids in the backseat, I can usually pull about average 32-34 MPG in mixed driving with all four of us in the car when I'm behind the wheel, peaking at 36 MPG at 59 MPH.

The reason I'm asking about valve train wear is because I recently sprung a slight leak from the crankshaft front main seal, and am preparing to pull the serpentine belt and crankshaft pulley to replace it. If my valves are already on the high end of the tolerance range and additional wear will INCREASE my measured clearance, I will take advantage of the overlap in work to pull the timing chain cover, replace the chain, and pull the camshafts as well to shim my valves to the mid-point or low end of the acceptable range.

However, if further wear will only serve to DECREASE my current clearances, I'll save myself the headache and just slap in a new crankshaft seal. I'd love to hear more input from fellow Vibe owners regarding their experiences on this point and to see more valve clearance check results for sake of comparison.
2003 Salsa Red Vibe Base Model
1.8L 1ZZ-FE, FWD, AT, 190K Miles
*Unresolved Vibration at Idle*
Caretaker

Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by Caretaker »

while I'm no mechanic, I vote for the latter. I have been repeatedly told by real mechanics that our VVTi engines cannot have the valves adjusted. From your own measurements, it seems that they are well within specs. I think our "valve tap" on these Corolla engines are much worse than anything I've had from Honda VTEC engines (which require routine valve adjustments). Unfortunately, whether it was at a dealership or my own private mechanic, each time I asked to have the noise silenced, I was sent packing.
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Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by Jbenrod »

I am pretty confident with this statement: ... the clearances on the "shim type" valve train on these DOHC engines actually shrinks with wear, rather than growing over time, due to the wear point being the valve seat rather than the surfaces of the shims or cam lobes.

I too am surprised with your I2 reading. These engines do not use a replaceable shim, just the buckets themselves which do come in different sizes for making adjustments if desired.
2005 Base - 220k
Jedman
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Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by Jedman »

I just checked the clearance on my 2010 2AZ engine w/ 190000 miles and was happy that all intakes were .009 and all exhausts were at .011 + or - .001 and the engine runs quiet.
I took off the right front tire and pulled the plastic panel that covered the crankshaft pulley nut so I could rotate the crank easy.
I was replacing the valve cover gasket anyways and this took maybe a extra 20 minutes to do. :D

Jedman
schwartzy18510
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Re: Valve Adjustments? (eh_clark)

Post by schwartzy18510 »

schwartzy18510 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:01 pm An extremely informative thread. I recently used @Derf's helpful YouTube video and valve clearance table document to check valve clearances while replacing a leaking valve cover gasket on my 2003 Vibe base model equipped with the 1.8L 1ZZ-FE engine, front wheel drive, and automatic transmission. Mileage at the time of inspection was 173,925. Here's my numbers, checked with a feeler gauge with the engine "cold":

Intake Cam (.0059–.0098")
  • I1 — .008"
  • I2 — .012"
  • I3 — .008"
  • I4 — .009"
  • I5 — .010"
  • I6 — .009"
  • I7 — .010"
  • I8 — .009"
Exhaust Cam (.0098–.0138")
  • E1 — .012"
  • E2 — .012"
  • E3 — .013"
  • E4 — .013"
  • E5 — .013"
  • E6 — .014"
  • E7 — .013"
  • E8 — .013"
There was only one valve (I2) that was significantly out of spec, although I had three others which were marginally (.0002") out of spec. The clearances on all valves — both those in spec and out — came in on the high end of the given tolerance range, which I initially found quite believable at the 174K mark according to the conventional wisdom of tolerances increasing with wear.

However, @djb383's earlier post in this thread indicates that the clearances on the "shim type" valve train on these DOHC engines actually shrinks with wear, rather than growing over time, due to the wear point being the valve seat rather than the surfaces of the shims or cam lobes:
djb383 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:45 am Let me see if I can explain away some of the mystery of a "shim type" adjustable valve train... Here's how it was explained to me. The shims and the cam lobes are extremely hard material and wear, between the two, is virtually nill with proper lubrication. What wears, is the valve seat itself, which is located on the combustion chamber side of the cylinder head. As the valve seat wears, the valve moves up farther into the head, closer to the cam, thus reducing the tolerance (gap) between the shim and the cam lobe. If this gap is reduced too much over time, the valve will be held slightly open and no will longer seal properly against the valve seat.
While this explanation makes perfect sense to my mind, how does it mesh with my clearance results from an original valve train at 174K miles, which indicates many valves at the max tolerance and a few just outside it? Wouldn't this indicate virtually no wear? After all, @joatmon's results from his Vibe at 128K had most of the valves right in the middle of the allowed range:
joatmon wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:46 am Today I checked my valve clearance. My 03 base has 128,625 miles on it, so I figured it was due. I had no performance or noise issues that made me think I needed a valve adjustment, but it had been on my list of things to check for a long time. The doc says that the tolerance for valve clearance is:Intake 0.15 - 0.25 mm (0.0059 - 0.0098 in.)Exhaust 0.25 - 0.35 mm (0.0098 - 0.0138 in)My feeler gauge set had increments in 1/1000th inch, and of the eight intake valves, one of them was at 0.007", the other seven were at 0.008". The eight exhaust valves were four at 0.011", four at 0.012". So, all 16 valves had clearances within spec, pretty much right in the middle of the acceptable range, so no need for adjustments in my engine at this time.
For sake of context, I run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synthetic 5W-30 motor oil at 5,000-7,500 mile oil change intervals and baby the car most of the time to feed my hypermiling addiction. Car gets 28 MPG in mixed driving with my wife behind the wheel and two kids in the backseat, I can usually pull about average 32-34 MPG in mixed driving with all four of us in the car when I'm behind the wheel, peaking at 36 MPG at 59 MPH.

The reason I'm asking about valve train wear is because I recently sprung a slight leak from the crankshaft front main seal, and am preparing to pull the serpentine belt and crankshaft pulley to replace it. If my valves are already on the high end of the tolerance range and additional wear will INCREASE my measured clearance, I will take advantage of the overlap in work to pull the timing chain cover, replace the chain, and pull the camshafts as well to shim my valves to the mid-point or low end of the acceptable range.

However, if further wear will only serve to DECREASE my current clearances, I'll save myself the headache and just slap in a new crankshaft seal. I'd love to hear more input from fellow Vibe owners regarding their experiences on this point and to see more valve clearance check results for sake of comparison.
Has anybody here checked their valve clearance more than once with a significant amount of miles between inspections? I've been pulling my hair out dealing with the dreaded 1ZZ-FE rough idle / engine vibration issue for better part of the last year starting a few months after my original post above, and after exhausting all easy and logical explanations as to cause, am returning to valve clearance.

I'm wondering if the out-of-spec .012" valve lash on my I2 lifter could be a contributing factor. I'd like to know definitively whether valve lash increases with wear on these engines, or whether it actually decreases due to valve seat wear over time as outlined above. I'm thinking that two valve lash checks on the same engine a good many miles apart might tell the tale.
2003 Salsa Red Vibe Base Model
1.8L 1ZZ-FE, FWD, AT, 190K Miles
*Unresolved Vibration at Idle*
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Valve Adjustments?

Post by 10vibe »

Just thought I would remind some that the 2zr-fe 1.8l in the 2009-2010 Vibe and 2009-present Corollas and Matrix's have hydraulic valve lash adjuster and roller rocker arms and should not need adjustment.
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
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