2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

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Zia242
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 am

2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Zia242 »

Hi GenVibe community.
I am new to the group but have been the proud owner of a 2008 Vibe since 2009. My baby just hit 100k about a month ago.

I love this car and want it to last but have had some issues in the past couple of years.
Try to bear with me as I give a bit of background. This is a long post. I just don’t know where else to turn for advice.

I live in a small town and most of the driving I do is below 30mph. Often they are just short slow ten minute trips.

A couple of years back I had a serpentine belt replaced which then set of a host of other issues. The car made noise and ran badly and I wound up taking it to a Toyota dealership where they told me when they pulled the car in the thought the car had been misfiring and it smelled of gas.
They wound up replacing the water pump and all the spark plugs. ( And a couple of other things I probably didn’t need.)

When I got the car back from them, she hasn’t been her pre-serpentine belt replacement self, but overall fine. I do notice though that when I start the car in the morning, it revs very high and loud for a couple of minutes.

I told the Midas shop where I get my oil changes about it I even suggested they maybe check the engine timing. But they said that the high rev was normal.

Ok now two years later, I get a check engine light and bring the car to Midas where they tell me it's a P0420 cat code. The tech says there are other reasons I could get that code but when I ask him about the cost of a cat replacement he says about $500. I ask, "..with labor?" He says yes.
They clear the code and tell me I should drive and if it comes back on to come back. I drive a few days possibly a week and the engine light comes back on.

Bring the car to Midas they say they will do a diagnostic and I ask them to call me after they do it to let me know what they find and we can go from there. After about an hour I walk back into the shop and the tech says he was told to put a catalytic converter cleaner (the RunRite stuff) and they charge me about $136. I was kind of annoyed they didn't contact me first but pay the bill and leave.

I purchased a code reader at a friend's suggestion.
Within a week after their cat cleaner treatment the check engine light is back on and I hook up my code scanner and this time I get a P0301 misfire code.

I do some googling because I want the old girl to last and I have always taken excellent care of her so I want to get some idea of what is happening and how I can do preventative maintenance and keep her running for another 100k.

I read somewhere that there's a trick where you let the gas get close to empty and then fill up with high octane gas. I did that. After that gem of a trick that is supposed to clean the cat, the check engine light stopped coming on.

I had already booked another appointment at Midas to get a thorough diagnostic, so I went back to them. Told them I had the P0301 misfire P0420 car code code but after the high octane gas the check engine light had not reappeared. They hook the car up to the computer and then a new counter guy tells me that I need a catalytic converter because it has a pinhole in it. He says if I don't replace the cat I won't pass inspection and he gives me an estimate of $1130. And about $987 of that is for the cat alone.

I should note, the only issues I have with drivability are that I have that high rev in the morning when I start the car or after starting it after its parked at work for a few hours, I have also noticed some lack of acceleration when climbing hills and I have noticed that my fuel economy is down and I am having to fill up more. It’s just not running as well as it used to. But hey, she’s 12 years old.
I tell them I’m going to have to think about the cat replacement and suggest we check some other things first. After all, dirt in the gas tank, an improperly closed gas cap, a bad tank of gas, fuel injector coils and a host of other things could cause the 420 code.

At this time the tech I most trust there is shaking his head. Is ask him to let me know why and he says 'You don't need that (meaning the catalytic converter)". We talk and I say well it could be something else like a fuel injector cylinder, and the good tech the says "yeah you did have a fault in your ignition coil".

So, I say well can we try fixing that first, that's only about $130 to replace the coil pack. He says yes and I tell the other dude to give me an estimate for that. It's about $140.

I take the car home and try to decide what to do.
The engine light did return briefly after the subsequent fill up of regular gas, but went off again within a half hour. Has not returned in nearly three weeks.

I did some research online and then called and spoke to the guy who gave me the high estimate and said, “I’m confused by your estimate. Is this a top of the line converter? You do realize my car is 12 years old?" And he then tells me that there is a less expensive $600 cat. I also ask him, if I were to order the parts would they just charge me labor to install and he says yes.

(I have since learned that universal fit non-OEM cats fail quickly but have heard direct fits might last up to five years. But would probably pay more for the OEM replacement if I thought that was the only problem and it would fix my issues and keep the car running well.)

After that experience, my trust is a bit shaken with Midas, so I go to another shop that a few friends had recommended and that had good reviews.
I tell them what has been happening, codes, drivability issues etc. They too tell me I have a small opening near where the heat shield is welded to the cat. He also brings up my MAF sensor as reading high at idle and that I have issues with my long term fuel trim being about plus 9 and 10 is the top. (I have to admit I don’t understand the fuel trim issue at all or what it really means. But I have read it shouldn’t be more than plus or minus 3. So now I am worried as he said it’s near 10.)

I asked him if he would spend the $1000 on a new catalytic converter for a 12 year old car and he said I should just bring the car back to Midas and have them weld the current cat. Which I didn’t even know was an option.

I am concerned that even if I have the cat welded or replaced that this fuel trim issue is indicating something else is wrong. And possibly engine related?

Also, I have asked both the second dude and Midas to replace the fuel injector ignition coil pack because it is only $130 bucks and I have been concerned since that misfire code came up. I have also read online that driving with a bad ignition coil can “rapidly damage” the catalytic converter. The car is at 100k and I think it prudent to replace them.

I asked a friend who is a car guy and who worked in an auto shop if misfires are just random things and he said no and told me it’s usually the start of a problem. I asked him if he thought I was nuts to want the coil pack replaced and he said no, he would probably do the same. He also confirmed that a bad coil could actually be the reason for the cat code coming up in the first place. Especially as the misfire code came up sandwiched in between cat codes.

I get that there IS a crack in the catalytic converter that I’m going to need to address at some point, but I am also concerned about the misfire. I just can’t see why they don’t want to take my money and do some preventative maintenance for me and replace the dang coil pack and see if it helps.

So here is my dilemma. Do I just sit back and not worry unless I get another check engine light as Midas suggested? Couldn’t I be doing more damage by ignoring a faulty coil? When I called back after having received the second opinion Midas basically refused to change the ignition coil pack. (Even though they had given me an estimate for it.)

Should I ask them to weld the cat to fix the hole like the second guy suggested? Or do you think I should just find a new mechanic? I hesitate to return to the Toyota repair shop because dealerships sometimes fleece you. And they did come up with an over $1k bill when I brought the car to them. Should I avoid the dealership shop or is it a better option?

I want to be proactive and keep this car running and I have to say, as a woman, I often feel like if I do research after they tell me what the problem is and make a suggestion as to how to handle it, my suggestion and my concerns are being completely disregarded.

If anyone has any suggestions as to what to do here I would so greatly appreciate them. I want this car to last. I bought it because I knew it was a solid car with Toyota Matrix guts (and also because I fell in love with the car right away.) I am I in utter admiration of those of you who are already at 200k and above with your Vibes and I would love for Sandy to last me at least another 50k. (I live in a beach town so I called my car Sandy). I just had to replace an airbag for a recall and the GM dealership said that the car is in excellent condition. But both the shops I have gotten these diagnostics from are making me feel like the car is on its way out.

I apologize for the lengthy post. But figure it couldn’t hurt to ask and it would be best to give you the whole situation.
Thanks in advance for any help and I appreciate you so much for reading this whole post.

(P.S. Admins - if this post is too long - I will try to cut it down. Just let me know.)
Caretaker

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Caretaker »

Here's the first rule of medical triage: stop the bleeding.
Here's the first rule of auto triage: start with the simple and work towards the difficult.
First things first: you need to find a reliable mechanic in your area and once they have proven themselves to you, your friends, and your neighbors, begin a life long relationship with that shop. DO NOT take your car to Midas or to a dealership.
Also, don't be confused with Toyota and "forever." These Vibes are not forever cars by any stretch of the imagination. There are better cars out there so don't become over enamored with yours. At some point, it will become a money pit and you'll have to cut it loose.
Aside from giving advice on what you have written as to what might be the problem, I encourage you to find that trusted mechanic. If you have money to burn in parts, you certainly can start with 4 new Denso spark plugs and Hitachi or similar Japanese ignition coils. These are basic wearable items that need replacing in everyone's car. I won't comment on the catalytic converter or other items since I have no confidence in any diagnosis from a Midas or a dealership's service department.
www.repairpal.com is a site for you to enter your zip code and find a repair pal certified mechanic in your area. Repairpal shops must abide by pricing guidelines to remain a part of the network. nextdoor.com is also a great resource to reaching out to your fellow neighbors to find trusted mechanics in your area.
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joatmon
Posts: 10018
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:19 am
Location: SMC MD

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by joatmon »

My experience with those codes is that the 420 never went away and it took a new cat to remedy it. I had random 30X misfire codes from time to time, nothing consistent, and it could go months between recurrences, never did anything to address it.
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jolt
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by jolt »

This may help with the P0301 code. At least you can read it and may give some ideas to ask the shop about:

https://www.engine-codes.com/p0301_toyota.html

Two possible things to have checked are:
+ Insufficient cylinder 1 compression
+ Intake air leak

The first gen Vibes had a problem with intake gaskets and if the gasket is starting to leak on cylinder #1, that is one of the things to have checked. If replacing the coil, I recommend using Denso brand coils and spark plugs on a Toyota. Denso is the company that designed the electrical system for this car. Other brands can or may have reduced life and/or other issues. Because of things like this, some shop will only use OEM (orginal equipment manufacture) parts.

P0420 code - the smallest air leak from the cylinder head to the back of the catalytic convertor in the exhaust system can cause this code. A crack, that has to be corrected if you have any chance to correct that code. Aftermarket converters are cheaper because they do not contain as much catalyst as the OEM convertor. Because of this the aftermarket convertor is not going to last as long as the OEM part but how many more miles are you going to drive the car? Do you need to go another 100,000 miles? How long do you plan to keep the car? The car could get hit by another vehicle next week and totaled out; do you want to spend for an OEM vs price of an Aftermarket? What are the warranty differences between the two convertors? Some states will only let you install an OEM convertor. These are things you have to ask yourself and the shop that is giving you estimates.
Zia242
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 am

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Zia242 »

Thanks for the reply. That is what I said to them. No I don't want to spend 1k on an OEM catalytic converter. And I have heard some good things about the Magnaflow direct fit converters that are about $300.
Hoping the car will run for another 30 - 50k and I do less than 10k a year so that gives me time to save for a new car.
I am going to get the car inspected a couple of months early so I know I can get a pass and I will then have another year to see what happens.
Thanks for the advice on the Denso brand coils.
After the inspection I'm going to see if I can get those replaced.
Thanks again.
Zia242
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 am

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Zia242 »

Thanks Caretaker. I have been really trying to find a reliable mechanic out here but it's rough. I had decided to stop going to Midas after they refused to replace the ignition coils after they were the ones who informed me I had a fault in one of them and even gave me an estimate.
I will check out that site.
Much appreciated.
Caretaker

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Caretaker »

You are quite welcome Ma'am. You and I are kinda in the same boat. I was inches away from having to get rid of my Honda Fit and give the Elantra Touring away as a replacement. I spent 15 minutes in the Subaru dealer where it took me only 15 minutes of polite banter to negotiate my Crosstrek deal to replace the HET. Turns out, the Fit's immanent transmission failure was just a wheel bearing. All three cars returned to their normal parking spaces days later. Hopefully it bought me another year as well as I really want to wait for the next gen Crosstrek as the 2021 is now essentially 6 years old in its design and is now falling way behind current models in its accoutrements. But should another incident cause another reshuffling of the cars, I now know where to go should disaster strike, which manager to go talk to, and what car I would drive home in. It is always good to plan and know where your next car would come from should the worst happen to the current one. By the way, yelp is also a good way to see what your neighbors think about local mechanics. Good luck in finding your next one.
Zia242
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 am

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Zia242 »

Thanks again.
I have been looking at the Crosstrek as well. Cool car. Have heard good things. Just gonna stash some cash and hope old Sandy holds up for a few more years. I think she will.
🙂
Zia242
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 am

Re: 2008 Vibe - P0420 & P0301 codes - Catalytic converter - possible other issues - any help you can give appreciated

Post by Zia242 »

As far as finding a good mechanic, that guy I went to get the second diagnostic from was very well recommended and right in my town. But he said he couldn't weld the cat for me and didn't really seem to want to help me.
I did find one from the Repair Pal network. They have great ratings and aren't too far. Going to see if they will replace the coil pack without giving me forty questions about why.
Have a good day.
:lol:
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