SOLVED: Speed-dependent noise

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nato
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:07 pm

SOLVED: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

tldr: 05 FWD with speed-dependent hum; steering changes intensity; already changed two wheel bearings, a CV axle, and transmission mount to no effect; finally fixed by replacing other front bearing despite elsewhere on the internet saying it wasn't the culprit.

Hi,

I have a 2005 Matrix XR with 260K miles. It's FWD with automatic transmission and pink fuzzy dice.

The car has developed a hum sound that fills the cabin, and it has become louder over the last 500 miles. The pitch and volume is dependent on the vehicle speed and not the engine speed. It starts becoming audible at about 25 mph and gets louder and higher pitch (the frequency seems to be proportional to the vehicle speed) as the speed increases. At highway speeds it is now loud enough that to have a conversation I have to talk louder than normal.

To reinforce that this sound is speed-dependent, and not engine RPM-dependent: putting it into neutral and letting the engine go to idle (and even revving the engine) while moving doesn't affect the sound.

When turning to the right while moving the sound gets louder, and when turning to the left while moving the sound gets quieter. Based on this I replaced the front driver's side wheel bearing. This did not affect the sound.

I then noticed that the sound gets a bit louder when accelerating and a bit quieter when decelerating (even just using engine braking). Based on this I replaced the rear driver's side wheel bearing assembly. This did not affect the sound.

I rotated the wheels and tires left-to-right. This did not affect the sound, and it didn't affect the direction of turning required to alter the sound.

After reading a bit here and elsewhere I was sure it was the CV axle. That makes sense, right? I replaced the driver's side CV axle. This did not affect the sound.

I can't localize the sound--it fills the cabin with no discernible direction. Also, I can't tell if I'm feeling the vibration in the steering wheel or not. I had a friend stand at the sidewalk and listen as I made a couple passes by him at about 45 mph and he couldn't hear the noise over the other normal noises from a car passing by.

Update: This morning I paid a bit more attention and I could feel it coming through the steering wheel and the floor pan. I noticed it as it coincided with the noise difference between going at speed while turning left vs turning right (at the same time that the noise went from almost inaudible to quite annoying).

Update 2: This afternoon I replaced the transmission mount that was torn all the way through. It's on the driver's side. Replacing this didn't fix my problem.

I've run out of ideas. Anybody got a suggestion?

Thanks so much,
nato

Update 3: This afternoon I replaced the front passenger-side bearing. This fixed the noise contrary to the conventional wisdom that *loading* a bearing would cause the noise to increase. See viewtopic.php?f=17&t=47544#p529992 for more details.
Last edited by nato on Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
zbyers
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by zbyers »

When turning to the right while moving the sound gets louder, and when turning to the left while moving the sound gets quieter. Based on this I replaced the front driver's side wheel bearing. This did not affect the sound.
I would venture to guess you should replace the passenger front wheel bearing too-- I would have done that before even touching the rear bearing. Axles also would not be on the top of the list, as those usually make a pretty distinct clickity-clackity noise when they start dying.

This is a pretty reasonable video that helps determine which wheel bearing could be the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLmnFy12mKI
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andrewclaus
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by andrewclaus »

Did you try rotating tires front to back?

Is your suspension and alignment in good shape? Motor mounts?
tpollauf
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by tpollauf »

Welcome to GenVibe. Seeing how the martixowners site no longer exists hopefully we'll be your next best resource for Vibe/Matrix advise. I had a similar experience six months ago BUT mine was more definitive to the drivetrain. Not certain which side was the culprit, for the price of a second CV axle I decided to have BOTH replaced. It paid off and was back to smooth driving. Maybe you need to replace the other side now? Let us know how this saga pans out
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nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

zbyers wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:43 am
When turning to the right while moving the sound gets louder, and when turning to the left while moving the sound gets quieter. Based on this I replaced the front driver's side wheel bearing. This did not affect the sound.
I would venture to guess you should replace the passenger front wheel bearing too-- I would have done that before even touching the rear bearing. Axles also would not be on the top of the list, as those usually make a pretty distinct clickity-clackity noise when they start dying.

This is a pretty reasonable video that helps determine which wheel bearing could be the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLmnFy12mKI
Thanks for the reply zbyers! I actually had used that exact video to decide to replace the front driver side bearing. From the video:

"When i turn to the left it makes the noise louder. ... I turn to the right it almost goes away. ... When I turn left it throws the weight of the vehicle onto the right wheel so it's the right front wheel bearing that's going bad."

The guy in the video had symptoms opposite of mine. With mine the noise gets louder when turning to the right (because it is throwing weight onto the left wheel). Did I get that right?

Is it possible by removing weight from the passenger side wheel that the passenger side wheel bearing would start to "complain"?

Thanks again!
nato
nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

andrewclaus wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:39 am Did you try rotating tires front to back?

Is your suspension and alignment in good shape? Motor mounts?
Thanks for the taking the time to respond andrewclaus!

An update to the original post: This morning I paid a bit more attention and I could feel it coming through the steering wheel and the floor pan. I noticed it as it coincided with the noise difference between going at speed while turning left vs turning right (at the same time that the noise went from almost inaudible to quite annoying). I'll update the first message in this thread to reflect this.

I didn't rotate the tires front to back. The purpose of rotating left to right was to try to localize the tires/wheels or eliminate them as the cause. Since turning to the right before the rotation caused the sound to get louder and turning to the right after the rotation also caused the sound to get louder (and since I rotated left-to-right tires/wheels of *both* axles) I've eliminated the tires/wheels in my mind as the culprit. Is my thinking on this flawed?

On the suspension: No thumping or rattling, and I haven't experienced any uneven tire wear or a non-centered steering wheel. Having said that, I haven't ever had any suspension work done on the car since I got it at 40K (12 years and 220K miles later!). Also, after the front bearing replacement it might make sense to get a front-end alignment. Absent any of the obvious other suspension symptoms (thumping/rattling/tire wear/steering wheel non-centeredness--am I leaving any out?) what sort of suspension component failures could lead to a steering-direction-dependent, speed-dependent growl that I can also feel in the steering wheel and floor pan?

Motor mounts: Could motor mounts cause a sound that is speed dependent? Wouldn't such a failure be responsible for engine-speed-dependent noises?

Thanks again!
nato
nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

tpollauf wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:59 am Welcome to GenVibe. Seeing how the martixowners site no longer exists hopefully we'll be your next best resource for Vibe/Matrix advise. I had a similar experience six months ago BUT mine was more definitive to the drivetrain. Not certain which side was the culprit, for the price of a second CV axle I decided to have BOTH replaced. It paid off and was back to smooth driving. Maybe you need to replace the other side now? Let us know how this saga pans out
Thanks tpollauf!

Yes, us Matrix folks are just siblings of the Vibes, right? :)

Based on my symptoms of being steering-dependent (and being quieter when putting more weight on the passenger side), would it make sense to be the passenger-side CV axle?

At any rate, I'm trying to figure out how much more work (and money) I want to put into this car. After replacing the catalytic converter last year (with admittedly a bargain online version) it had failed in like 6 months! No worries, I'm not trying to solve this problem right now. I have emissions tests where I live every two years and don't think I have the energy to do another cat replacement before it's due again (although, after busting about a dozen rusted bolts the first time I'm sure this time would be a *LOT* easier). It also has an oil leak that I've made a couple of half-hearted (and unsuccessful) attempts to localize. There's probably a dozen less serious issues that I've let go by the wayside at this point that I can't even remember.

Story time: A couple years ago I had a valve cover gasket failure. Except I didn't know it until it fouled out an ignition module. The gasket failed at one of the spark plug wells and I suppose since it had never leaked or burned oil before I got out of the habit of checking the oil between changes. I guess it had run itself low enough (but not low enough for the oil light on the dash to illuminate) that a week after fixing the gasket (and topping off the oil) I had another engine code that was caused from the timing chain stretching. While replacing the timing chain I replaced a few things that probably would've failed soon, as you can imagine.

I've got mixed emotions about the car. In the 220k miles and 12 years I've had it it has served me well. I abuse the car--push it hard ALL the time--and yet I haven't really had to do much to it in that time. And when I have it has been relatively easy to work on too--*LOTS* of room to work with under the hood compared to a lot of smaller cars.

More than you wanted to know, but that's kinda where I'm at it with this car.

Thanks again!
nato
andrewclaus
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by andrewclaus »

nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:11 am...I didn't rotate the tires front to back. The purpose of rotating left to right was to try to localize the tires/wheels or eliminate them as the cause. Since turning to the right before the rotation caused the sound to get louder and turning to the right after the rotation also caused the sound to get louder (and since I rotated left-to-right tires/wheels of *both* axles) I've eliminated the tires/wheels in my mind as the culprit. Is my thinking on this flawed?
I've never experienced it but I've heard of tread separation. My thinking is if the noise is steering-dependent, get both front tires to the back and see if the noise changes. It may be the easiest and cheapest thing left to try.

Suspension issues and motor mounts are long shots. The previous post to mine covered my top choices. I'm just thinking of things that could move in a turn that shouldn't. You can probably assume you don't have any damping left in your struts, which can change dynamics while turning.

Is the fuzzy dice comment a nod to Click and Clack?
Caretaker

Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by Caretaker »

nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:40 am Story time: A couple years ago I had a valve cover gasket failure. Except I didn't know it until it fouled out an ignition module. The gasket failed at one of the spark plug wells and I suppose since it had never leaked or burned oil before I got out of the habit of checking the oil between changes. I guess it had run itself low enough (but not low enough for the oil light on the dash to illuminate) that a week after fixing the gasket (and topping off the oil) I had another engine code that was caused from the timing chain stretching. While replacing the timing chain I replaced a few things that probably would've failed soon, as you can imagine.

I've got mixed emotions about the car.
Well, you certainly are at the point of throwing cash at diminishing resources. If mine so much as burps again, it is history. All depends on your financial situation. Now that I'm out of the hills of San Diego, my Vibe is running the best it ever has. At 140,000, I have a long way to go before the Corolla engine should give me pause for concern. However, my first goal is to get any car to 10 years. Then it is gravy on top of that. To me, you've been living on gravy for a long time. Fortunately for you, Toyota "quality" isn't the only game in town anymore. There are lots of great Asian choices out there, especially in the used car market. After 10 years, you have to come up with some kind of car formula for your family's financial situation. For me, if I was going to live to a ripe old age of 5,000, I'd do whatever it took to keep any car I spent many hours researching. But in this short life, I can't see throwing money into something that is fighting (and losing) the test of time.
nato
Posts: 16
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

andrewclaus wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:38 am
nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:11 am...I didn't rotate the tires front to back. The purpose of rotating left to right was to try to localize the tires/wheels or eliminate them as the cause. Since turning to the right before the rotation caused the sound to get louder and turning to the right after the rotation also caused the sound to get louder (and since I rotated left-to-right tires/wheels of *both* axles) I've eliminated the tires/wheels in my mind as the culprit. Is my thinking on this flawed?
I've never experienced it but I've heard of tread separation. My thinking is if the noise is steering-dependent, get both front tires to the back and see if the noise changes. It may be the easiest and cheapest thing left to try.

Suspension issues and motor mounts are long shots. The previous post to mine covered my top choices. I'm just thinking of things that could move in a turn that shouldn't. You can probably assume you don't have any damping left in your struts, which can change dynamics while turning.

Is the fuzzy dice comment a nod to Click and Clack?
andrewclause, thanks again for your attention and efforts. The motor mount comment got me thinking. I googled and found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqv8x4ywu0I which noted that a transmission mount could cause rattling at idle. Although that rattling is not what this thread or concern is about, I've had such a rattle for probably two years now. lol

Also, the transmission mount is on the driver's side and is actually really easy and quick. I went ahead and inspected the mounts and found that the transmission mount was cracked. I went ahead and replaced it this afternoon, finding that it was cracked all the way through. As a plus, this is a simple replacement and was way quicker than I'd expected. Additionally, it took care of the rattling at idle! ... Unfortunately, it didn't do anything for the speed-dependent noise. :(

I don't know the original origin of the pink fuzzy dice comment, but a guy named Dave worked at a parts place called Handy Automotive in Maryland Heights, Missouri near where I lived until 15 years ago. The questions for finding the right part: "What year is that Chevy pickup?" "1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, or 1 ton?" "4.3L or 5.7L or 6.8L?" "Power steering?" "Air conditioning?". He always added "Pink fuzzy dice?" It's a dad joke, but I'm a dad, so it's just a reflex and comes out like that, even in forum posts. lol

Thanks again,
nato
Last edited by nato on Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

Caretaker wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:19 pm
nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:40 am Story time: A couple years ago I had a valve cover gasket failure. Except I didn't know it until it fouled out an ignition module. The gasket failed at one of the spark plug wells and I suppose since it had never leaked or burned oil before I got out of the habit of checking the oil between changes. I guess it had run itself low enough (but not low enough for the oil light on the dash to illuminate) that a week after fixing the gasket (and topping off the oil) I had another engine code that was caused from the timing chain stretching. While replacing the timing chain I replaced a few things that probably would've failed soon, as you can imagine.

I've got mixed emotions about the car.
Well, you certainly are at the point of throwing cash at diminishing resources. If mine so much as burps again, it is history. All depends on your financial situation. Now that I'm out of the hills of San Diego, my Vibe is running the best it ever has. At 140,000, I have a long way to go before the Corolla engine should give me pause for concern. However, my first goal is to get any car to 10 years. Then it is gravy on top of that. To me, you've been living on gravy for a long time. Fortunately for you, Toyota "quality" isn't the only game in town anymore. There are lots of great Asian choices out there, especially in the used car market. After 10 years, you have to come up with some kind of car formula for your family's financial situation. For me, if I was going to live to a ripe old age of 5,000, I'd do whatever it took to keep any car I spent many hours researching. But in this short life, I can't see throwing money into something that is fighting (and losing) the test of time.
Caretaker, dang it, you're right! :)

Maybe I just came here so that someone on the internet that I've never met and will never meet is giving me release from keeping this car going. lol

I'm not *quite* there, but I'm getting really close.

I'll probably take another look at the passenger side front bearing (although everything I'm seeing suggests that *can't* be the problem), but I'm running out of ideas, and running out of energy to put into this.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Thanks again Caretaker!
nato
zbyers
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by zbyers »

nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:00 pm
Caretaker wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:19 pm
nato wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:40 am Story time: A couple years ago I had a valve cover gasket failure. Except I didn't know it until it fouled out an ignition module. The gasket failed at one of the spark plug wells and I suppose since it had never leaked or burned oil before I got out of the habit of checking the oil between changes. I guess it had run itself low enough (but not low enough for the oil light on the dash to illuminate) that a week after fixing the gasket (and topping off the oil) I had another engine code that was caused from the timing chain stretching. While replacing the timing chain I replaced a few things that probably would've failed soon, as you can imagine.

I've got mixed emotions about the car.
Well, you certainly are at the point of throwing cash at diminishing resources. If mine so much as burps again, it is history. All depends on your financial situation. Now that I'm out of the hills of San Diego, my Vibe is running the best it ever has. At 140,000, I have a long way to go before the Corolla engine should give me pause for concern. However, my first goal is to get any car to 10 years. Then it is gravy on top of that. To me, you've been living on gravy for a long time. Fortunately for you, Toyota "quality" isn't the only game in town anymore. There are lots of great Asian choices out there, especially in the used car market. After 10 years, you have to come up with some kind of car formula for your family's financial situation. For me, if I was going to live to a ripe old age of 5,000, I'd do whatever it took to keep any car I spent many hours researching. But in this short life, I can't see throwing money into something that is fighting (and losing) the test of time.
Caretaker, dang it, you're right! :)
He IS pretty good at living up to his screen name. He's been taking care of us since the beginning of [Vibe] times.
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SSizler
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by SSizler »

The way you describe the noise is exactly what my Vibe was doing.
It was a wheel bearing.
I replaced them both and am now back to smooth cruising.
2003 Vibe Base / Frosty Mono / Moon & Tunes / Auto / 206k mi / Total Loss 1-23
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nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

SSizler wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:20 am The way you describe the noise is exactly what my Vibe was doing.
It was a wheel bearing.
I replaced them both and am now back to smooth cruising.
SSizler,

I don't suppose you remember which direction of turning made the noise louder? And which bearing was the actual failed bearing?

Anyone: Is it possible that reducing the weight on a front wheel (by turning the steering wheel in the direction of the troubled bearing) could make the noise from a failing bearing louder? This is counter-intuitive, and everywhere I've seen talks about *increasing* the weight causing the sound to get louder.

Thanks again to all for your help!
nato
SSizler
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by SSizler »

nato,
My bad bearing was on the left side / drivers side.
I think the noise would get louder when I turned right / loaaded the bearing, but that was back in February, and I am not 100% postive that is correct.
I could easily feel the roughness of the bearing after I got the axle out of it and could turn it by hand.
2003 Vibe Base / Frosty Mono / Moon & Tunes / Auto / 206k mi / Total Loss 1-23
2006 Vibe AWD / Lava Mono / Loaded w/Leather and Sport Pkg / 150k mi
Many other 2 & 4 wheel toys :mrgreen:
40 years with a wonderful woman / 2 adult kids
zbyers
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by zbyers »

The noise will get louder on the outside bearing that gets loaded, as more weight is on that corner. So if you are turning left, and the noise gets louder, it is the passenger side bearing that is bad since more weight is loaded on that corner.

That said, if you have already done one front bearing, you might as well go ahead and do the other. They both get the exact same amount of usage. And you're chasing a noise that has been described exactly like a bad wheel bearing. Would be logically to definitely eliminate that as the other option than to continue to wonder what the noise is. *shrugs*
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nato
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Re: Speed-dependent noise

Post by nato »

zbyers wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:21 am The noise will get louder on the outside bearing that gets loaded, as more weight is on that corner. So if you are turning left, and the noise gets louder, it is the passenger side bearing that is bad since more weight is loaded on that corner.

That said, if you have already done one front bearing, you might as well go ahead and do the other. They both get the exact same amount of usage. And you're chasing a noise that has been described exactly like a bad wheel bearing. Would be logically to definitely eliminate that as the other option than to continue to wonder what the noise is. *shrugs*
zbyers, tpollauf, and SSizler,

You were all right! It was the passenger front bearing. Why did I ask for your opinion if I wasn't going to listen to it? lol

This afternoon I disconnected the knuckle from the CV axle and when I spun the hub I felt and heard something I hadn't when I did the same thing for the other two bearings I'd already replaced. BTW, these are the only wheel bearings I've ever replaced, so for anybody who's reading and hasn't felt or heard a failing bearing spun by hand at a slow speed, you'd probably be surprised just how little drag and noise at slow speeds can turn into LOUD noises and vibrations when under load at high speeds.

I removed the entire knuckle/wheel hub assembly and had a local machine shop remove and install the new bearing because that was just too scary for me to do myself. :) I put it back on did a quick test up to 55mph with no more bearing noise. Yippee!

So I guess I answered my own question:
nato wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:59 pm Is it possible that reducing the weight on a front wheel (by turning the steering wheel in the direction of the troubled bearing) could make the noise from a failing bearing louder?
The answer is most definitely "yes", as that was the case here. Turning to the right shifts the weight away from the passenger side, reducing the weight on the passenger front wheel, yet this reduced weight resulted in a louder sound. This is contrary to what everyone on teh interwebs sez. I guess that's what I get for listening to those people. lol

OK, so I have until May of 2021 before my tags expire. Since I'm pretty sure I'm not going to fix the exhaust again, that'll likely be the end of my journey with this car. At the rate I'm going I should be able to squeeze another 12-13K miles out of this car. Wish me luck!

Thanks again for everyone's help!
nato
Caretaker

Re: SOLVED: Speed-dependent noise

Post by Caretaker »

Here's your next car:

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