'09 ABS and Traction Control need a winter mode.

[dragon64]

Had a lot of snow and freezing rain last night. Almost got rear ended because of the traction control system last night. Started to pull away for a stop. Got half way through the intersection and hit a patch of ice. When the TCS kicked in the car almost came to a stop like the engine was stalling. The first time I pressed the gas harder and got slower. As I let off the gas the speed started to pick back up and started moving again. At the same time the guy behind me was spinning his tire and picking up speed and almost slammed into the back me. This happened a couple time before figuring out what was happening and finally started turning it off at each stop to safely get through each intersection without risk of getting rear ended or T-boned if the TCS kick in and decides to apply a lot of braking force to stop the wheel spin. Had the opposite problem with the ABS when it wouldn't allow enough braking force to the wheels and braking distance on snow and ice were several time long than what I would have expected in my old car. One time from 40 to 50kmh I could feel the ABS pulsing from 50 meters from the stop through the intersection and maybe a cars length down the street before coming to a stop. There was no cross traffic so decided to ride it out to see what the car was going to do other wise I could have just got on the throttle and cleared the intersection. I think the TCS probably would have stop the car faster than the ABS. Felt like I had bald all-season tires rather than brand new ice and snow tires. Finally had to start to used the hand brake to at least get the rear tire to "snowplow" and create a wedge of snow in front of them to stop. Took the girlfriends G3 without ABS or TCS out on the same route and was able to stop on the line from the same speed and distance every time even though it have got icier in the time that had pasted since I went through. I've driven a 03 Passat and many rental in the winter with ABS and TCS without the problem created by the system in my '09 Vibe. Seems like GM and Toyota are aware of the issues of driving with the ABS and TCS in the winter after reading the owners manual for the cars because they warns of increased stopping distance in the winter with the ABS and says to disengage the TSC to allow the wheels to spin to get the car moving in snowy and ice conditions. Volvo got it right and has the best system where you just press the "W" button to engage a winter mode which allow the wheels to spin and slip a lot more in winter driving conditions.

[shemp]

I agree. I've tested the system out in slippery conditions, and I must say that it does a good job of preventing the car from going into a sideways skid. I've had some frusterating situations with it as well in, and am peeved that I can't turn it off (it automatically turns back on at 40mph). IMHO TC is good in slippery conditions for the average driver who has not explored the cars traction limits, handling dynamics, practiced skid-recovery maneuvers etc. There are times when I would prefer to be in total control of the car, without the clumsey inputs form the TCS system intervening, but frustratingly I can't.

[Sublimewind]

TCS is just another way of removing the human from the driving expierence and "dumbing down" the whole of those that drive them... I have to rant here a little bit... Auto makers have spend BILLIONS to make cars safer, but has it REALLY made cars safer? OR, has it made the people that drive them more complacent??? Complacency kills.... You've got a car with ABD, airbags, TCS, ect.. what does that leave for the driver to do?? Not much, espically when they tend to get lazy (complacent) and allow the car to do everything, then, in the event like you had, leaves you scrambling for an instant soulition... I read in a Motor Trend or a Road&track once, can't remember... The guy went on to say that, ALLLLLLL of that money spend to develope air bags and traction control, could have EASILY been saved if we had just put a LARGE METAL SPIKE in the middle of the stearing wheel... Sound very strange and extreme doesn't? Well, if you had a large metal spink sitting in front of you in your car, you'd be one heck of a driver wouldn't you? Cause if you wern't, you'd be dead... Simple..

[dragon64]

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »TCS is just another way of removing the human from the driving expierence and "dumbing down" the whole of those that drive them... I have to rant here a little bit... Auto makers have spend BILLIONS to make cars safer, but has it REALLY made cars safer? OR, has it made the people that drive them more complacent??? That would explain the need for power opening and closing doors on many cars now and that they won't open when the vehicle is in motions as well. The funny part about cars with ABS, ESC and TCS is it does make people that drive them more complacent but at the same time all the auto manufactures state directly or indirectly in their vehicle owner manuals that these systems do not work there best in conditions where people assume they should work there best such as when you are slipping and sliding around in loose snow, sand, dirt or gravel. Until these systems include adaptive intellegence it will be hard for a electronic system to beat as in my case +30 years of winter driving and several season in the cockpit of a stage rally car on snow and ice. This not to say I don't appreciate having electronic assistance of these system 85% of the time but at least I have the driving experience to quickly figure out how to work around these issues on the fly where as someone say my girlfriend might have got into more trouble expecting the electronic to get her out of this mess.

[psiu]

My next car will be tough to find. I hate ABS.And I would guess any AWD vehicle will come with it. Rgggghh..

[northvibe]

I think these things can help in certain situations. obviously the truck driver was not driving properly for the conditions and staying far enough back. Its not always you/your car's fault..theres a lot of idiot drivers out there. I think cars should come with these options and have a on/off switch or be a option from purchase. And the on/off switch must do as it says and none of this "partial off crap". LIke my ms3, i turn TSC off and i can do almost whatever..turn it on I cant put the car sideways very nice for nasty conditions. its all about knowing the situation, your car, how your car handles and if you can turn off/on these things....

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by 13Vibe03 »You can always pull the ABS fuse but does that work for traction control?Ding ding ding ding.... I used to pull the ABS fuse in my Subie... The ABS would come in WAY to early and was a general nightmare.. I've found a few techniques when driving that car to stop in the snow FAR quicker than you would with ABS, it's dance, but when mastered, it's amazing... Does it show, I miss my beater Subie... lol...

[dragon64]

Screwing around in the parking lot found a novel use of both the ABS and TCS at the sametime. From 30-35kmh in loose snow wasn't getting much braking action out of the ABS. Had the clutch in, drop down a gear and let out the clutch again hoping to get some compression braking. Blipped the throttle, as soon as the TCS light started to flash the car stopped on a dime almost like slamming on conventional brake on dry pavement. Also found 2 other things the TCS doesn't work in reverse and at higher speed even with the TCS you can get a pendulum going and can do a decent Swedish forest flick before the TCS catched the rearend drift.

[GenuineVibe]

apparently if you HOLD the off button for TC, it will shut off the Stability Control and both will not turn back on until the button is pressed again. Thats what it says in the manuel but hey they could be lying.

[trask]

I have tried this and both VSC and Traction Control lights remain on until I push the switch again. I took it up to 60MPH and both warning lights remained on. I have not tested this in the snow though.To turn off both the traction controlsystem and StabiliTrak®, pressand hold the switch whilethe vehicle is stopped. The tractioncontrol system warning light andthe VSC OFF light will come on.To turn the systems back on,press the switch again. If bothsystems are turned off, they will notturn back on automatically whenvehicle speed increases.

[ou.grizzly]

Wait. So your telling me Toyota designed a system can be turned on or off by pressing the button and they even put it in the owners manual?

[ned23]

So far I really like the traction control. I have no desire to turn it off during normal driving. The loss of control is frustrating, and it is a bit of a bruise to my ego because I considered myself a very good winter weather driver (never an accident due to snow or ice) but I'll get over it. I may turn it off to do some doughnuts in an empty parking lot, though. You know that's really important practice everyone should do every year to keep their skills sharp.

[GenuineVibe]

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly »Wait. So your telling me Toyota designed a system can be turned on or off by pressing the button and they even put it in the owners manual? Apparently So.

[psiu]

There are times I would like ABS--around here in Detroit area I would probably like it more often than not. The road crews here suck. But once the snow really starts piling up--I want to be pushing the brakes to the limit and sometimes locking them so I can build the pile in front.

[elkhaze]

I myself consider myself a good winter driver, but there are some rare occasions were i am thankful to have ABS. My old car did not have ABS, and after a snow storm when the city clears the road, there might be some slippery spots, and the one that might be dangerous are the ones just before a traffic light or a Stop sign. You would be driving without any problems, and all of a sudden, when trying to slow down or stop because the traffic light became red, or any emergancy event, and you hit a slippery patch, and your car keeps sliding forward, and you only have less than 5 seconds to react to the problem before hitting someone. The only option you might at this stage is hitting the emergeny break, hopping it will spin the car and stop with minimal damage to surrounding cars, or keep sliding hopping no one will T-bone you. This is the only situation where I would need ABS + winter tires.

[bcm]

I too have been cursing the traction control. I am currently living in a hilly and snowy part of Newfoundland and if I don't have some speed up before going up a slippery hill I won't make it because the traction control kicks in and takes all the power away. I have stalled out a couple times because of this.A winter mode would be much more convenient and less of a pain in the a$$.

[vintagegz]

I think if you press the button once while driving it will disable traction control, if you hold it in for a few seconds when stopped it disables traction and stability control but turns on automatically at a set speed. There are 2 areas of the owners manual that deal with both situations.

[trask]

What speed do they automatically turn back on again? After disengaging both systems by holding in the switch I took mine up to 60mph and both traction control and stability control remained off until I pushed the switch again.

[bcm]

The traction control comes back on around 30 mph, once you are at or over that speed you can't disable it.

[trask]

OK it would be nice to disable these systems at any given speed, but at least if I wanted to have these systems off, I have the ability to disengage them and they will stay off until I decide to engage them again.

[vintagegz]

traction control you can disable while vehicle is moving by pressing the button, stability control together with traction control can be disabled only when the vehicle is at a complete stop by pressing and holding the button for a few seconds.