Typical life of a hydraulic clutch? GT

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:53 am

How long do you all expect a GT's hydraulic clutch to last under "normal wear?" Anyone else experiencing prematurely deceased clutches?We just took our 03 Vibe GT in for dealer (what we hope is warranty) repair for what can best be described as a "slipping clutch" by our regular Toyota-based mechanic. I could let the clutch all the way out in first, and juuussstt inch out into traffic. It was like driving an automatic. The misery continued through all six gears. The trans guy at the dealership says something about the disk in the hydraulic clutch being worn down. Even he indicated it seemed kind of early...We have about 32K miles on this basically year-old car. (BTW, we're longtime stick drivers, and as parents don't tend to drive like maniacs... usually) The dealership AND the Pontiac "help" line are both telling us that it is likely "normal" wear for a hydraulic clutch to croak inside the warranty period! They're taking the car apart now (had it since Wednesday), and of course don't have any Vibe transmission parts, so the best we can hope for is to get it back maybe Monday. And we're having to pay for a rental if this isn't under warranty, on top of the initial $700 they're quoting to tear the car down. And without parts available anywhere (for them or our regular mechanic), I feel like we're over a barrel. Sorry, frustrated here! Help![Tried searching the forum for similar conversations - apologies if this is a duplication.]

dmitri · Post by **dmitri** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:33 am

Sounds like your clutch is worn, some of them go early...the racing cltch in my camaro went after 10k (hard driving). You might just need the linkage adjusted. Buy an aftermarket clutch...if your gonna pay for a new one, why not pay probably the same price for a better one? Theres the ACT racing clutch. http://www.ptuning.com has it. I bought my CAI from them, and the suspension package yesterday. Im pleased with their service. Personally i like the old mechanical clutches like in my old 68 camaro

ragingfish · Post by **ragingfish** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:37 am

It was already mentioned they are parents and drive the car more or less normally. Doesn't sound like mods are their thing.No point in buying a whole new clutch.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:17 pm

There is no way that clutch should be worn out already. There are nowhere near enough miles on it for that. That should definately be a warranty issue.

pissedoffgokart · Post by **pissedoffgokart** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:17 pm

HUGE thread on Matrixowners.com on this, seems bunches of people are having clutch issues with the GT / XRS.http://www.matrixowners.com/modules.php ... pic&t=8025

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:01 am

Thanks for the link pissedoffgokart. That makes me a little concerned. I swear I have felt a slipping, but I thought it was just me. I don't have the burning smell though. Any other GT owners having any problems?BTW, I only have around 5500 miles on mine.

pissedoffgokart · Post by **pissedoffgokart** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:16 am

I seem to smell the clutch at least once a day, nothing extreme or anything just a quick whiff. I have been driving sticks for 14 years and have NEVER done this, not even when I was learning to drive! When I went to visit the parents earlier this year I was talking to my Dad about it and he seems to think that there is absolutely no way this should happen, he said he has never smelt a burnt clutch in his lifetime. I personnally think the main reason for this is that they have the exact same set-up on the GT/XRS as the Celica GTS. The GTS is signifigantly lighter, and has smaller wheels to move stock than the GT/XRS. They didn't think to compensate for that weight distance/rolling diameter with our cars. The clutch would be fine if the pressure plate was beefed up. My dad used to work at GM and he seems to think that if enough folks complain to GM and Toyota that they might issue a recall for it and get it fixed. The bigger question has to be has it been corrected for the 04 model year? Anyone with a 04 GT or XRS have these issues?

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:37 am

I too have been driving a stick for about 13 years and have never had this problem either. I want to know who we have to contact to complain about this. I don't want my clutch going out after 20,000 miles.

pissedoffgokart · Post by **pissedoffgokart** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:48 am

Working on it. Give me a bit.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:01 am

quote:Call Jeff Strausser about this. He asked some of us at the MI Meet, because it was a concern of his. We'll let Nick contact him when he reads this thread. Nick is the way to get with Jeff from the way I understood their conversation.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:02 am

Where is his number posted?

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:20 am

Thanks a lot silverawd26! I wasn't aware that anyone was free to call him from the website. I IM'd Nick so I will wait to hear back from him before I call.Thanks again! Oh yeah, I don't know about posting phone numbers. I don't think that is a really good idea. Maybe we should see if Jeff can register so we could IM him here and send our phone number that way.

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:32 am

Wow! You folks are a wealth of information, thanks so much! Came in to work here in L.A. and was surprised at the number of posts. I've already left a message on Jeff's line - please note that he's on vacation until the 29th. BTW: No word yet from the dealer on the clutch...somehow I'm not holding my breath. Thanks again for all of the info!Dawn

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:44 am

quote:Wow! You folks are a wealth of information, thanks so much! DawnYou're welcome Dawn! That's what is so awesome about this site. You can get info and questions answered quickly.I'm sure it will get worked out too, Rob. A lot of people are thinking there is going to be a recall on this issue. Let's hope!

KSNeptune · Post by **KSNeptune** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:54 am

Just so you'll know.. I have a 86 Nissan pickup with 5-speed manual. The clutch went 115,000 miles before wearing out. Cost to fix was The GT's high revs may be alot more stress on it's clutch. And they easily may have under-engineered the thing for that engine. It's probably good you're still in warranty. There's gonna be alot of people pissed when they reach 35k miles and have to replace their clutch, but are out of the warranty period.KSNeptune

pissedoffgokart · Post by **pissedoffgokart** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:03 am

As opposed to the phone number deal, most members have their e-mail address posted.

dmitri · Post by **dmitri** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:45 am

on my gt it really takes a while to launch, and thats when i smell the burnings (only sometimes now)...when i first got it i smelled it alot . But now i kind of pop he clutch i dont really take it out too easy or else it rubs too long.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:44 am

quote:Where is his number posted?Jeff Strausser (number removed)That is his work number, I know he is very busy at work and does not need his voice-mail filled up with complaints about the Vibe, let the right people contact him rather then everyone calling him and leaving 10 voicemails along with the close to 20 he'll get on a daily basis.

Pablo1669 · Post by **Pablo1669** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:47 am

quote:Oh yeah, I don't know about posting phone numbers. I don't think that is a really good idea. Maybe we should see if Jeff can register so we could IM him here and send our phone number that way. Jeff told me that he is not able to register to this site and talk on it, but he does read it all the time (after all, he is the one who told me about it while visiting with my dad).

Post by **NSimkins** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:23 pm

Just to add.. definitely post your problems, questions, issues here at GenVibe first before you take other means higher-up on the GM chain. It's definitely easier to discuss problems as a group and know that people from GM are reading these posts and addressing the concerns.Feel free to IM me with any specific concerns and I can relay them to Jeff directly. It's best to keep the calls to him to a minimum and through the appropriate channels.We're all here to help!

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:07 pm

Thanks Nick and Pablo. I was thinking the same thing about his voicemail getting filled with complaints about the Vibe. I didn't want to add to his load of issues he is probably already working on. I agree that any issues that need to be handled directly with Jeff go through Nick.I hope to hear something when Jeff returns from vacation about this clutch issue.

jcarvibegt · Post by **jcarvibegt** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:05 am

Hey guys, I have 15000 miles on my GT so far and it seems to be fine. All thou ever since i've had it, i've noticed that it doesn't like to be rushed or driven hard. Not what i expected from a performance version of a vehicle. My intial impression was that maybe the engine is a lot stronger than the tranmission can handle, but i think the weight issue could be a problem too. I'm curious as to wether Celica GTS owners are having problems. I know my friend who is a moderator on the matrixowner website is having the same problem and his is really bad. I've driven his car and it slips constantly. Feels like a clutch with 5 times the mileage, and he's only got 24000 miles on his XRS. I really hope that i don't have this problem once i get up to the same mileage. And if i do, i full expect the dealer to cover the repairs b/c it is absolutly unexceptable for a clutch to wear down that quicly.

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:24 am

Oops. I picked up the number and called immediately last week. Apologies to all, and I won't do it again.To update on the puppy that started this thread - Jack at Sierra tells me something like "my transmission tech is sending the flywheel out, it's really worn... scored real bad." Which sounds like he's trying to tell me that he's not going to try for warranty coverage, despite round-about agreeing that it sounds rather unusual for it to wear out at this point, that it seems like wear and not a warranty issue.So maybe I don't feel so bad about calling directly to Detroit :-]We discussed the fact that we've driven a CRX for 18 years, and prior to that, had driven an Accord (also with hydraulic clutch, which lasted 100+K miles each). It will likely take major intervention to get this clutch covered under warranty (as it should be). With @$1000+ at stake, this is for the life of the car. There's no way I can afford to keep a car, no matter how fun, that's going to need $1000+ every 30,000 miles (or less?) just to keep it on the road. I need a car I can depend on. There has to be something that can be done!Grrrr....Dawn~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~2003 Abyss GT, Moon 'n Tunes (pretty standard stuff)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Psychobroker · Post by **Psychobroker** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:07 pm

My $.02...~4500 mi., also having these clutch problems. From day one I felt it was too weak, but the dealer told me nothing was wrong.The GT clutch simply doesn't have enough "grip". I guess, and prematurely slips. Good luck avoiding slippage on a hill w/ a full load. It vibrates far too much at higher RPM's for my liking, something I've never felt in ANY other manual tranny I've ever driven.

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:25 am

What do you think, guys - Sierra Auto has declined to cover a new hydraulic clutch (or the appropriate repairs) under warranty. Jack has tried, and "discounted" the repair/resurfacing of the flywheel and all of the rest of the stuff "from $1100 to $950." I'm supposed to be grateful...I'm looking into the CA lemon law next. This is insane, at 32,000 miles under normal driving conditions, one year old? I think not...I haven't had a response from Jeff, though I'm sure he's got a million messages and fires upon returning from vacation. We continue to argue with GM and Knikita at the Pontiac phone number has an open file on us and will call back tomorrow. Any suggestions? Much obliged and quite disappointed in an otherwise good car - I hate to have to get rid of it,Dawn

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:33 am

This is very disturbing. This should be at least a warranty item, if not a recall. We need to have Jeff involved as soon as possible. I believe he is on vacation which does not help you out much, but we need to see what he can do for you.I agree with you that the clutch should not be an item that you have to pay for. Please keep us all up to date.

jcarvibegt · Post by **jcarvibegt** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:19 am

If i have to change my clutch every 25K to 30K at $1000 or more each time, there will be no way i will keep my Vibe. And that sucks b/c I really love my car. My friend chris is having the same issue with his XRS and he is still back and forth between the toyota dealership. TrojanGT , Have you tried going to another pontiac dealership to see if they will authorise the warranty repair?Has anyone found out if toyota or GM has issued a service bulliten with a possible cause and the solution for this severe problem. B/c even if they do repair your clutch, in 25,000- 30,000 it could be messed up again. Next time i speak to my service tech, i'm gonna ask him if he knows anything!

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:40 am

Since Sierra had to pull apart the transmission/clutch to determine the problem, I felt I had no choice but to tell them to fix it, and that we'll fight out the warranty issue after-the-fact. The clutch had gone so far, pulling out into traffic was a frightening experience, akin to a slo-mo replay. There wasn't much use in trying to move the car closer to home (Sierra Auto is at least 40 miles from our home, on the other side of L.A.)Pontiac made getting parts such an issue with my regular, Toyota-certified independent mechanic that we all agreed there was no choice but to go to a Pontiac dealer.I am unhappy... Our guy worked on our Honda (CRX, 18 years old and 265k miles when I sold it for this lemon) and our Toyota Previa (1991, which will hit 300,000 miles on this next tank - thanks to the Vibe being out of use for the last two weeks) and our cars have never failed us. We never went to the dealers for service, and now I remember why, vividly. That said, to increase the length of the fight, should we be investing in the extended warranty before we hit 36,000 miles? The car is only 15 months old! But if the clutch is not covered, as a "normal wear item..."(sharpening my claws as we speak...)Dawn

wildvibe · Post by **wildvibe** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:38 am

All I can say is I will be very unhappy if this happens to me I still have an issue with my gas tank add the clutch problem and I will prob drive my car through the service window lol!

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 5:17 am

Happy Friday, y'all!Well, we got our Vibe back from Sierra on Wednesday night, and boy, is it nice to have that old getup and go back! I'd almost forgotten how quick this car can engage! Jeff Strausser did give me a call back. It was a pleasure talking to him, his concern about Vibe owner satisfaction is very sincere. I'll be sending him some more information on my case, and will update here as appropriate.In the meantime, I'm just delighted to have the Vibe back, since besides just being a hoot to drive, the a/c on our Previa died and it IS summertime here in sunny So Cal! Mahalo, y'all!

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:57 am

not a good sign for the clutch. I also experience some brake issues with my Tundra. they wore to nothing at 30K miles. I spoke to another owner and his burned out at 20K miles. he raised such a stink, they agreed to cover it under warranty. first sign of my clutch slipping I'm in the dealership making hell. no way it should go out at 20K miles! also, I plan to make sure I check my brakes alot to be sure they are safe.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:38 pm

If my clutch goes early and Pontiac/Toyota hasn't addressed things properly, I'll just replace it as needed. I just like this thing too much.

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:21 am

Good and not good news. The good news had been that Jack at Sierra Pontiac had told us we can expect a refund of the money we paid for the repair of the clutch. I had thought this meant they would process it as a warranty issue, so I sent our rental car receipt (just over $100 dollars for three days of a really crummy little Cavalier) for reimbursement. NOT!Jack called me today to say that he couldn't pay this - he was using his Goodwill account to cover out clutch job. So we're still out the $100+ for the rental. Now, I'm not complaining about having the clutch replacement at 32,000 covered. I am concerned, though, that they feel this is just fine that the clutch goes out. There wasn't a lot of interest expressed in helping Jeff Strausser determine the greater, deeper problem with clutch failure in the Vibe GT and the Matrix XRS. Again, it's one thing to cover this clutch job. It's another to have to pay for another one next year, and the year after that and the year after that. Annual clutch replacement at $1100 a pop isn't even a consideration. Something has to be done to improve this situation.I did send a fax last night to Jeff to follow up (I'm not at work this week) on how he wanted me to send the failed parts to him - I have them - so he can have them examined. 20/20 hindsight being what it is, I began to realize that over time, in relatively normal traffic, I had been smelling OUR clutch - never having realized exactly what a burning clutch smells like. (husband thought I was crazy - this clutch job and flywheel resurfacing proves otherwise)It is clear that there aren't really enough GT's and XRS's out there with the mileage we have on them - Jack admitted there's only one other one that comes in at Sierra, and the corporate guy I know at a local but reasonably large Toyota dealership couldn't really say that he'd even seen an XRS, only the automatics. So I feel we need to jointly be aggressive in pursuing this issue, or it will be swept under the rug by the local dealerships. It's easy to blame the wear on the drivers, but we all know it isn't just the driving. It's the part. And an expensive part at that! Guess I'll be keeping this thread updated for a little while to come... This car is too good to just give it up easy, but it has to stay reliable - I drive a good part of my life through South Central LA, and I prefer reliability over any other feature in a car! If I'm doing my part, taking it in to a reliable, trusted mechanic every 3000 miles, I should hope that the car can return the favor. BTW: This guy is really good. Our trusty old 1991 Toyota Previa LE (original transmission, BTW) just rolled past the 300,000 mark last night! I can't imagine having taken it this far without Tad's loving care... and it is as trustworthy as ever - just no a/c anymore! Mo' later,Dawn

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:28 am

thanks for keeping us updated on this issue. I will make sure I pay very close attention to my clutch. if it comes to that point, i will probably look to replace it with a performance clutch that will last longer. I imagine since they are so new, few are on the road with as many miles as yours currently. I think in the next year we'll see more and more failed clutches appear as the miles pack on.

Kissfan79 · Post by **Kissfan79** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:55 pm

DOH! I may be one of them. I have almost 14,000 miles on my GT and I add about 100 miles per day (for 5 days out of 7) to and from work.Jim

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:40 pm

I also want to thank TrojanGT for keeping us up to date on this. For all of us GT/XRS owners, we need to make sure we keep this thread updated as much as possible. I also agree that we need to push the issue on getting this recalled or replaced under warranty.

BubbaBlueyz · Post by **BubbaBlueyz** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:40 pm

That all should be under warrenty no matter what! You should check into them leanding you a car, if they have your car more then 24 hrs they have to lend you a car! Atleast thats what my dealership told me. If not, check with your salesman! Your clutch is part of your drivetrain! doudle check the warrenty on your drivetrain! I cant rememeber, but I had a gentleman tell me about the lemon law, something of if they have your car more then 30 days, you can file for something! I cant remember! sorry, I feel that the clutch should be under warrenty!!!!!

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:54 pm

quote:I feel that the clutch should be under warrenty!!!!!The clutch is a wear item just like brake pads and tires. It isn't covered and will probably never be.

Triton · Post by **Triton** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:01 pm

quote:The clutch is a wear item just like brake pade and tires. It isn't covered and will probably never be.That's exactly what I wanted to say. I should have said that if you have to have this replaced before a recall, you should see if the dealer will do this as a warranty job. But they can deny this because it is a wear part. Although it is wearing out VERY early. This is why we need to voice our situations to someone so maybe a recall or something can be made.

esjones · Post by **esjones** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:17 pm

Are all of these clutch problems just with the GT? I have a 5-speed base. Should I be concerned?

Psychobroker · Post by **Psychobroker** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:28 am

This is one of the most important threads on these boards. I suggest it be STICKIED ASAP. Thanks for all the footwork that paves the way for us newer owners. PS It should be moved/sticked to the Warranty forum..

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:51 am

Happy Thursday!Jeff tracked me down today while I was watching the kids at swim lessons (what a background racket! It was funny)The short version is that arrangements have been made (with a dealership very close to my home) to have the dead clutch forwarded per Jeff to be examined/autopsied, which should help Pontiac determine what caused its premature demise and hopefully move us all closer to a more permanent and lasting solution than annual hydraulic clutch replacements. Whew. Rah! This is terrific, because even more important to me than getting my clutch cost reimbursed is finding out how the clutch can be bettered to reduce replacement intervals to at LEAST two to three years, at a minimum. It took a week in the shop to get this one replaced. Imagine once there are more of these on the road, at this mileage... who knows how long it will take then?Working with Jeff on addressing this issue has been the best. You all are so correct - Jeff is just the nicest guy, with a true concern for both the satisfaction of the owner and making the Vibe the best car it can be. It is just a pleasure to work with him, even on something as frustrating as a failed clutch. I actually feel like we might get somewhere with this issue, as more documentation comes in for him to work with. Suspect overall, it might take time, but a solution can come in the long run, as long as everyone takes the time to help track this issue.Gotta go get the kids - they should be done with their swim camp soon...Mahalo,Dawn

TrojanGT · Post by **TrojanGT** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:17 am

Yes, thank you for putting it up. I'd likely be looking closely at selling this car if it weren't for Jeff's dialogue. The dealership just doesn't see enough of these 6-speeds to understand that there is a common issue here. Overall, I sense there are so few out there (Matrix or Vibe) that it will take a really concerted effort on reporting and tracking to determine the underlying problem for correction.I live out here in Toyota country (town of their US Headquarters) and see tons, and I mean tons of Matrix (very few Vibes) on the road every day. Of these Matrix, there are many XR's, many of which could be 5-speed manuals, but I hear many of them are automatics.I can count on one or two hands the number of times I have seen XRS' over the past year, which are the true sister to the Vibe GT, and believe me, I look for them.Us six-speeders seem to be a rather exclusive club, with a rather expensive problem. I haven't kept up much with the dual Vibe/Matrix forums, but cross-referencing may be our strongest suit (besides working with Jeff, of course!).So thanks, silverawd26, for helping me get in touch with Jeff!(really off to get the kids this time)Dawn

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:32 am

sounds like excellent news! I'm trying to keep a close watch on what to look for in my GT. here in Alaska, the dealerships give you the run around and this would be another item to argue over. i only have 6K miles now, but I anticipate my mileage will increase greatly by next summer. Thanks for keeping us updated on this.

Psychobroker · Post by **Psychobroker** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:52 am

quote:I live out here in Toyota country (town of their US Headquarters) and see tons, and I mean tons of Matrix (very few Vibes) on the road every day. Of these Matrix, there are many XR's, many of which could be 5-speed manuals, but I hear many of them are automatics.Nice to see another SoCal Viber, and an awesome one at that! Keep up the good work!!

MadBill · Post by **MadBill** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:58 am

Here's a question:Since the 2ZZ engine has no more torque than the 1ZZ, why is it the one with clutch problems? It could possibly use the same clutch even.

MR_BKDW · Post by **MR_BKDW** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:50 am

First time i have read this thread and it sounds like what is going on with my clutch. My gt being the first manual I have ever drove I do not know much about them, but I do have a funny burning smell every now and then also I have to smash my clutch to the floor to start the car or shift, I will definetly have to mention your problem when I take it to the dealer next week and I only have 5k miles on it.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:47 am

quote:Since the 2ZZ engine has no more torque than the 1ZZ, why is it the one with clutch problems? It could possibly use the same clutch even.Well, technically the GT does have 5 more lbs/ft of torque but that shouldn't make a difference. The problem probably has to do with the 2000-rpm higher redline of the GT engine.

goodvibe · Post by **goodvibe** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:15 pm

Different clutch and harder to launch GT. Rpms make no difference since you can do everthing except launch without slipping the clutch by matching rpms to gear speed. Once it's engaged there is zero wear.

NovaResource · Post by **NovaResource** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:43 pm

quote:Rpms make no difference since you can do everthing except launch without slipping the clutch by matching rpms to gear speed. Once it's engaged there is zero wear.True, but if you think there's no slippage at full throttle, accelerating hard at 8000-rpm your kidding yourself. That isn't a racing clutch in there. Plus hard launches will make it wearout faster.