5spd Transmission detonated

[Bedlam]

So I picked up a used 2003 Pontiac Vibe a while back to take the load of my Magnum for daily driver activities. I couldn't deal with road racing her with no backup car for WHEN I eventually broke something I couldn't fix in an evening before work the next day. The car is great and I have had one before (a 07 I traded in on the Magnum). I bought the 03 knowing about a bearing failure being possible in the transmission from that year that would eventually happen, but the price was good enough that I just factored it in with the purchase.So this summer I started to get the low howl of the bearing. The 5 speed transmissions in these things are so fragile on the inside that the act of pulling the gears to access this piece destroys them so a full rebuild requires new gears. The plan was to drive it until it blew and be ready for it.I picked up a used low mile trans about a month ago out on Long Island. I drove down to the Bridgeport ferry and took it over to Port Jeff after work. Since walking on is cheaper, I brought a big duffle bag with some cardboard padding and had the dude meet me at the dock. I walked off the boat, put the transmission in my bag and walked back on and drank my dinner on the way to and from at the ships Bar. Saved a bunch of money and time and didn't have to deal with driving out through New York and CT traffic at rush hour. The dock guys didn't believe me at first when they saw me put a large, odd shaped metal object in the bag and waddle back to the boat with this thing around my neck. Once they looked in the bag though I was good to go after a couple laughs and disapproving looks.So that brings me to yesterday morning. The howl got louder and louder and went away followed by a crunching noise and some hesitation from the car and a crazy loud whine. I was on the highway doing 80+ at the time so I hammered down and made it to work knowing what was ahead of me. It wasn't bad for the last 2 miles but it was unhappy on deceleration and cried and grinded. Looks like 110k miles was it for this baby.Yesterday afternoon I realized I could not select reverse and I had to push the car backwards by hand to get out of my space. First gear was a beotch to get in but it took it and off I went. Crazy loud whine and some grinding made it obvious that metal had come loose and was hammering around inside the trans. I was able to get through the couple lights and on the highway but realized that decal in gear = death and shuddered the whole car. Half way home I am about to get on my last highway connection and looked at the overpass and saw a traffic jam on 91 South. No way could I do multiple low speed starts over and over again. I rerouted to a local country road and hoped for the best and not to die in high volume intersections. When I came to a stop I also came to the realization that 1st gear was gone; nothing left, not selectable, GONE.OK, so slip the clutch and use 2nd to get going. Second is grinding but it takes. I have to row it from 3rd to 2nd to even get it in the gate though. Things are deteriorating quickly. At this point I am meandering down this country road in 4th getting lucky at the lights when I finally get stuck at one. Now i have to try to figure out how to get going again. I do my slam through the gears to find the #2 gate and start slipping clutch. BAAM, GRIND and horrible noises come out and the shifter kicks out of 2 and won't go back in. The light is green, traffic in front left and cop behind me is staring. I put my head out the window and yelled the basics and he said good luck and put his flashers on. I manage to get it into 3rd and start slipping the clutch to get moving in between the grinding and howling of the gears and bearings (what is left of them). 3rd kicks out but I slam it back in and hold it there slipping away and finally get moving. 4th takes and I am back on the road trying to keep the load to a minimum. At this point, the fusing dry metal smell is terrible. I am eating this thing alive and just need to make it to the barn. I know it is trash and I have no intention on saving it. I find at this point, 5th is toast as well and nothing happens when I try to get it in and get some momentum.So about 15 minutes of this goes by as I make back onto the final lower stretch of rt9 heading to the barn and I got part of 3rd, most of 4th and 1st,2nd,5th are shot and no longer have usable gears left. I am rolling through stop signs after I get by the short highway section (very low traffic part of town with flashers on and good visibility) trying to keep moving, knowing if I stop I am calling a tow truck. I managed to get all the way back to the farm and with one hand firmly pushing the lever in 3rd to stop it from ejecting I got on it and blasted up the last hill and coasted to the barn and grinded (literally)to a stop. One quick look underneath revealed some exposed gears and almost no fluid left. She's dead Jim…Magnum fired right up and off I went to pick up my wife for dinner. I'll swap in the new transmission this weekend and if I have time I'll crack open the blown one and get some pictures. I just wish I had my GoPro with me to record that drive home. Holy crap would it have been something to watch with the bucking and grinding and screaming bearings after it was done.Yea i could have towed it but sometimes its about the adventure!

[Salsa Guy]

Glad it all worked out. Love to see some PICs

[joatmon]

Great story, nicely retold, and +1 on pics

[A Psycho Martyr]

damn, that thing was a trooper.lolcan't wait to see some pics of that now-useless chunk of metal

[SeattleJeremy]

Looking forward to pictures!Edit: Did Toyota fix this issue at some point?

[star_deceiver]

Looking forward to those pics!!!

[Bedlam]

I can't even begin to describe how freakin angry I am right now.Did the swap yesterday without a hitch. Mechanically, everything seemed perfect. Got it on the highway and this transmission is making the EXACT same sound mine was 2 months ago. It does it under the same conditions and i can guarantee it is the same bearing on it's way out. The fact that i spent the money, time and effort to buy this and install it, only to have the same freakin issue and to have only bought me a couple months max makes me out of my mind pissed off right now.On top of it, i bought it from a member here.....

[joatmon]

I guess maybe that other member's username is applicable.When mine first went out, the one I got from a junkyard went out quickly, but within the short term warranty they offered. Still, quite frustrating. I can relate to how you must be feeling.

[A Psycho Martyr]

That must be quite frustrating... Bummer

[Bedlam]

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I guess maybe that other member's username is applicable.When mine first went out, the one I got from a junkyard went out quickly, but within the short term warranty they offered. Still, quite frustrating. I can relate to how you must be feeling.I messaged him to let him know. I won't call him out on anything if he works with me on this. Honest mistakes can happen, it's how we deal with them to make them right that shows what kind of people we are. The noise was apparent within the first 10 miles of use and haunted me on my way to work this morning.

[Baltovibe]

Quote, originally posted by Bedlam »I picked up a used low mile trans about a month ago out on Long Island. I drove down to the Bridgeport ferry and took it over to Port Jeff after work. Since walking on is cheaper, I brought a big duffle bag with some cardboard padding and had the dude meet me at the dock. I walked off the boat, put the transmission in my bag and walked back on and drank my dinner on the way to and from at the ships Bar. Saved a bunch of money and time and didn't have to deal with driving out through New York and CT traffic at rush hour. The dock guys didn't believe me at first when they saw me put a large, odd shaped metal object in the bag and waddle back to the boat with this thing around my neck. Once they looked in the bag though I was good to go after a couple laughs and disapproving looks.For those who might have missed this great story, it is here. Nice job getting it home!

[Bedlam]

Quote, originally posted by Baltovibe »For those who might have missed this great story, it is here. Nice job getting it home!...should have stayed home that day.

[circuit1]

Just curious as to what your next step is. I too have a Vibe (2003) with the transmission making a noise, and am trying to decide what to do next. From everything I have read about the 5spd, it is not worth replacing with a used one as most seem to have the same problem a short time after the swap. Some say to replace the 5spd with a 6spd, and that it is was an easy swap, and the 6 does not experience the same bearing problems. I wonder just how easy it really is.

[djkeev]

It is a well known fact that used parts are a gamble. Do you buy lottery tickets or bet the track? All the same concept.Sometimes you win, other times you lose.Most yards offer a TIME warranty. 30 days or whatever. Not from when installed but when removed from the salvage yard.Dave

[Bedlam]

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »It is a well known fact that used parts are a gamble. Do you buy lottery tickets or bet the track? All the same concept.Sometimes you win, other times you lose.Most yards offer a TIME warranty. 30 days or whatever. Not from when installed but when removed from the salvage yard.DaveWell actually i don't buy lottery tickets or gamble. I am also aware of the used part market for cars and the ability to win or lose sometimes. 30 days from when i bought it, i had installed it and found it was failed. I expect nothing more than money back as a junk yard would offer.Don't try and make this something it's not or some unreal expectation. Got a part, put it in, it's bad, I plan to rip it out and bring it right back for my money or at least some sort of refund.

[djkeev]

Quote, originally posted by Bedlam »Well actually i don't buy lottery tickets or gamble. I am also aware of the used part market for cars and the ability to win or lose sometimes. 30 days from when i bought it, i had installed it and found it was failed. I expect nothing more than money back as a junk yard would offer.Don't try and make this something it's not or some unreal expectation. Got a part, put it in, it's bad, I plan to rip it out and bring it right back for my money or at least some sort of refund.What am I making this that it is not?? What unreal expectation?? Sorry but I Don't see the controversy here, I simply pointed out the gambling aspect of used auto parts. It is amazing how many people are unaware of the pitfalls in installing used parts.Best of luck to youDave

[Bedlam]

I figured I'd update this. So the member i bought it from refused to refund my money and only offered a swap with a 6 spd he had for some more money. With cash already tied up in this (that i now can't get back) and the known reliability of the 6 spd trans i figured this might be worth while since i really had no other option other than beating a refund out of him. So i attempted to give him the benefit of the doubt and deal again with a LONG time genvibe member.So he tells me the 6 speed is in good shape, so i leave the car on the lift without a trans and haul the crap 5 speed back out on the ferry to swap for a 6 speed. I get there and low and behold, it looks like the [REMOVED] thing had been buried in a junk yard for years. I am on foot, in another state with a downed car and this freakin guy wants to upsell me this mound of crap. who the hell says "good condition" when half of the casing and the inside of the bell housing is covered in a half inch of mud and grease?it's getting dark and being flippin pissed will not get my car running. He doesn't have my 300$ and won't refund it for the hunk of [REMOVED] transmission he sold me in the first place. I bit the bullet and made him take money off the top for my travel expenses for the 2 trips and head back onto the boat.I got this filthy hunk of junk home and had to take a putty knife to it to remove all the built up dirt, oil and [REMOVED]. Between an hour of that and 6 cans of brakeclean it was finally ready to install. I let it dry over night and installed new seals for the shafts in the morning and off i went. 6 speed went right back in place of the 5 with some noticeable bulges in the casing for the extra hardware. No issues on that front and was very satisfied that i reinstalled and had the car back on the ground in under 3 hours by myself. Until i went for a drive.3rd gear syncro is shot (at least). It spits it right back out of gear and it became clear that the [REMOVED] that owned this before me sucked [REMOVED] at power shifting and destroyed 3rd gear missing so much that he took it out. The rest of the trans is quiet so far and the ratio's are so short that i'll just not use 3rd. The principle of the matter is i was sold 2 bum transmissions that were represented as good. I've uninstalled and reinstalled the unit twice at this point. I know you take a risk with used parts but NEVER would i have this issue on my other forums without some sort of solid resolution. No long time members worth anything would leave you with bum parts without doing something about it. Bad parts circulate and stuff happens but i can usually count on people to do the right thing. When this first happened i would have expected a full refund and never dealt with the person again and no bad blood would be held. Refusing a refund for only $300 for something being hand delivered back is freakin ridiculous. Then boning me on a second part without offering some form of compensation for the lack of percentage of working pieces is insult to injury.I really don't care that he said he bought them esleware and whatever he wants to cry about how much he paid. He represented an item for X amount of money in WORKING condition. It is not my problem that he feels he should have to break even. The guy has no freakin backbone and he had better hope i never see him in person again unless he has some money for me.frankly after paying a fair market value for a 6 speed in disgusting shape of $650, and only having 5 gears work. I want my $100 back.-rant over

[joatmon]

I admire your restraint about that other member's name, but I don't have it.The other member was Bad Vibe His transmission for sale thread was http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=44841

[star_deceiver]

And there's a diffrence between long-time GenViber and Active GenViber.Perhaps the "40 substantial post minimum to sell" http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=26819 rule in the for-sale subforum should be increased to 200.

[Bad Vibe]

It was my sale but unfortunately not my tranny I bought and resold it without ever having seen it work, the 2nd tranny I totally did not realize how dirty it was and I had it stored in my trailer and had not taken a close look at it having only picked it up a little before I recieved the call that 5 speed was n/g Had I been planning to sell it from the get go I definately would have whipped out the brake clean myself In the interim of picking up the 2nd tranny and doing the swap for the 5 speed I hydro locked my motor and was desperately trying to get my car running so I could get to work. And unfortunately did not have the cash in hand any longer as there was a few weeks in between.I don't see how a post count consisting of conversations on subwoofers and chrome trim would make the transmission any less broken.And the "difference" between a forum member and a guy off craigslist like who i bought the 5 speed from, is that I a. picked up the phone b. tried to figure out a solution even if it wasn't maybe the ideal one for all parties and c. didn't just laugh and hang upUnlike Mr. Bedlam I was Unaware of the 03-04 C59s deficiencies prior to this affair or i might have been more cautious in the buying it.Both Trannies I sold I bought for my own use and changed plans, so had I used them I would have been In the same boat. They are Used parts as Djkeev stated (+1 thanks for the defense btw, you could've easily just grabbed a torch and pitch fork), and it is a tranny, a part you can't do a vulcan mind meld with to see how its feeling.Bedlam is the one who told me how fragile these trannies are having bought a car knowing it was bound for failure, I have had a few c60 6 speeds vibe gt's and celica gts, c56 and e153awd spyder and alltrac 5speeds but this was the first C59 I'd crossed paths with and I'd be very suspicious of the next I see.and although I did swap engines and trannies afer a few weeks of on and off work he seems much more experienced in the field, I work at a shop, at the counter, customer service and tire sales, I am by no means a mechanic and I don't enjoy the implications of the following: "made him take money off the top" - I Agreed to, just like I agreed to this whole settlement"boning me on a second part without offering some form of compensation for the lack of percentage of working pieces" - I at best broke even on the 6 speed probably not considering I had driven 2 hours and 6 hours round trip to get each tranny, and now have a tranny I can't return refund or exchange or resell in good conscience for near what I paid. not getting by "boning" people, I had transportation costs too plus I was told that the 6 speeds gear ratio's were going to "ruin" the mileageC60 6th gear 60 mph 2601 rpm 0.725 ratio 4.53 finalC59 5th gear 60mpg 2619 rpm0.815 ratio 4.058 finallike its ruining the value of an 03 Base Vibe to do a 6 speed swap instead of a glass 5speed... seriouslyI wish this whole business venture went more amicably, I didn't like making an unhappy "customer" especially being a forum member, but on my end I offered something maybe not what he wanted 100%, but something he agreed to, I didn't say that I had driven the trannies and was very clear on the 2nd transaction that I had no knowledge of the condition.Bottom line from my side: I personally have never gotten nor asked for a refund on a used part from a private party, there is no warranty as there is no business to back it. you give me $300 Tuesday its spent by Friday because my car is broken too.thats all for now, just wanted to say my pieceand I am sorry things went down in an unhappy fashion, but so goes car repair, I deal with alot of customers at my job, and no matter how you try not everyone is gonna leave happyPlease feel free to flame away ppl I take full responsibility for my words and actions.

[Bedlam]

dude, you just don't get it. You really have no clue when it comes to selling anything. And to respond to your second sale part. You said it was an unknown condition but offered me no other option for a refund. I could either eat the cost on the first trans and walk away with JUNK or invest a few hundred more and get a better chance at a working one. that isn't fair dealings man. If you man'd up in the first [REMOVED] place i would have taken my money and never spoken with your sorry [REMOVED] ever again.You can do 1 of 3 things up front.1: Sell as is, where is and be done with it and adjust the price accordingly for unknown condition.2: know (removed) you actually have before marketing something in a condition it is NOT in.3: Not sell [REMOVED] at all because you don't know it's condition and should not dump your crap on someone else.You keep skipping over one very important idea as well. no one freakin cares about your personal [REMOVED] or what your money problems are or how much you have into anything you are trying to offload. It's a business transaction, so stop freakin whining about trying to break even or how far you had to drive to get something or anything beyond what you are actually trying to sell. Grow a backbone, and man up.Too many people these days have excuses FOR EVERYTHING and it gets old and you've become one of them. Anyone worth a crap will do their best to represent what they have and make sure you never dump a non working anything on someone else unless they know up front that something is wrong and pay a price accordingly.Used parts are used parts and sometimes things end up wrong and it happens. I have been on both ends of this before over the many years of fixing my own cars. if for some crazy reason i sell something that wasn't how i described or i packaged improperly, i ALWAYS will either refund the money or if it is a small issue, just pay for the replacement piece and eat the cost. Sometimes you make money on a deal, sometimes you lose money. The times you lose, you learn from and figure out how to not let that happen again.you keep bringing up how tight money is, and how you travelled afar to get the C60. NO ONE CARES. and beyond you having the part in your hand for X price, none of that ever needs to come to the table. If you can't afford to deal or you are unsure of things, then you figure it out before putting them up for sale. People used to give a [REMOVED] about their reputation and doing the right thing. People like you are increasing in number selling either complete junk or unknown condition parts and throwing your hands up in the air when something goes wrong. You make a deal, you stand behind it. This has nothing to do with being a person vs a business, it all comes down to personal accountability. It's obvious you'll just keep spouting excuses over and over again so i know i'll never get anywhere with you. I've even stayed out of your part out thread to warn people about how flaky you are with selling anything, but keep this up and i'll follow every thread you ever make and make sure I contact anyone that is ever interested in anything you are selling to make sure you never screw people over like this again (on GV at least).And check your math on the gear ratio's stupid. the 6 speeds turn an extra couple hundred RPM's in 6th than the 5 speed does in 5th. Mileage does go down and the motor has to turn harder to keep highway speeds.

[Bad Vibe]

Well its clear you are the better man in all this sorry it didn't go down to your high standards, it was a used part, sold as is in the first place and it was priced accordingly thought trying to find a a mutual resolution might smooth things over, apparantly not for you.And learn to copy paste in a gear ratio calculator its very complicated math. Don't worry I don't feel the need to return your deleted explatives youll make the mods blush.If no one care about my problems then why should they care about yours?

[06pvibe]

Jeez. Bad Vibe indeed.I don't believe I've ever seen such a thread here on GenVibe before?

[millster]

Quote, originally posted by 06pvibe » Jeez. Bad Vibe indeed.I don't believe I've ever seen such a thread here on GenVibe before? You've not been around long enough. I'm letting this one ride (aside from removing profanity) just to show that it's somewhat buyer beware but also to let both sides be stated. As long as it stays largely civil, that is.

[Bedlam]

Quote, originally posted by millster »You've not been around long enough. I'm letting this one ride (aside from removing profanity) just to show that it's somewhat buyer beware but also to let both sides be stated. As long as it stays largely civil, that is. My apologies on the language as i was still annoyed about the complete lack of responsibility on the part of this seller.I do agree that there is a degree of buyer beware that is always present. My issue is with being lied to.I was told the transmission was in great shape and was pulled from a car by a dealer with a misdiagnosed problem that ended up being a half shaft. It was low miles and supposedly a great deal. It indeed was low miles, but it was pulled from the car for a very specific reason because the dreaded bearing noise was instantly present and loud from this unit.If i got a problem transmission, and knew it ahead of time with the intention of rebuilding it, i would have never put it in the car and instead cracked it open to do the repair first (if i had the time or intention to do so). Being told i was buying a unit with nothing wrong with it, misrepresents the condition of the piece and wasted a good amount of time, effort and money on consumables involved in the swap. If he wasn't aware of that before selling it, then the right thing to do would be to take it back and either return it to his source or market it correctly with a newly diagnosed condition. Passing a problem onto a buyer is not the way to run things.Either way, the terms of the deal originally made were broken so the deal should be reversed, refunded and walked away from. That was the sole failing in this whole mess and could have avoided all of this.

[randomguyother]

2006 Vibe that just grenaded the c59 transmission. Bearing at shaft disintegrated and caused all sorts of gear chipping/debris. Just tore it down and replaced all bad parts and installed a rebuild kit. Works fine now. Essential info below.
I worked through toyota for all of my parts and dealer info.

- my main sources:
- general transmission removal: https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/di ... cs.959473/
- general c59 disassembly: http://www.tcorolla.net/overhaul-1203.html
- c59 differential ring removal and install: http://www.tcorolla.net/overhaul-1212.html
- output and input shaft gear pulling and pressing: various youtube videos.
- main culprit: The bearing that looked worst had the following identification on the inner race ("HTF...B25-163Ag") and outer race ("NSK...JAPAN...630Z"). Note that the replacement bearing that came in the rebuild kit was identical. I opted to use a different bearing (totally sealed on both sides, unlike the original) from toyota. I just let the parts department identify the superseding part.
- "Rebuild Kit": Note that there are two very similar kits out on the market. Go to "www.transmissionpartsdistributors.com" and see the difference between their "BK418BWS" and "AWS" kit. A difference of 0.020". Easy to mix up and not everyone offers both kits to choose from. The "BWS" worked for my vibe.
- Advice: Go to friendly dealer. Give them car info. Have them print out all schematics of: internal shafts and gears, differential and bearings, overall trans case. During tear down, identify all parts to replace. Have them identify all toyota part numbers (the numbers in the schematics are the short 6 digit codes that aren't specific enough). Use the real toyota part numbers to buy for 60% the cost using an online toyota parts dealer.
- Advice: Be organized during tear down. Take photos. Ensure all parts are removed and laid down so you know the orientation/order. label all parts against the step number for reference.
- Minimal tools: Press. Various pipes (measure the exact sizes you need to press bearings and gears and order from mcmaster carr. Cut to 6" or 12" lengths.). Inside diameter blind pullers (expand to allow hammer pulling from one side). Outside diameter bearing pullers (various sizes). Bench grinder (you'll need to grind your pullers to fix exactly and be prepared to get replacement pullers). Impact gun to make pullers work better. Clamps to hold pullers in place while using impact gun. Small plate with and without holes to protect pointed tips of pullers when pulling on shaft without a hole.
- Advice: On the differential, I just approximated bearing preload by spinning the differential teeth with a long screwdriver. Did not use a tool in the middle hole.
- Advice: Note that not all bearings are pressed and bottomed out. Read the instructions from toyota above at each step.
- Advice: When the two case halves are sealed and bolted together - you will probably fail to get the two shafts to stick out far enough for the snap rings to be installed. Don't panic. Tap (with wood block) on the input shaft in the bellhousing from below while pulling up on both shafts to get them moved up a little. You don't need to tear it all apart and repress bearings.
- It won't be clear exactly what parts the rebuild kit comes with compared to your toyota part numbers. Plan on sucking up a restocking fee from someone. If you're getting close to a 30-day return window - contact the distributor and get an allowance of time in writing.
- Advice: If you're hammering when you should be pressing during reassembly, you're doing something wrong. Make sure it all gets seated correctly and straight.


My rebuild cost ~$1,300 on trans internals (new shaft, diff ring gear, some gears, and rebuild kit). ~$350 on new clutch and rear main seal.

have fun. don't rush. if something seems too tough - walk away and think on it.