Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

The latest news on what's happening with the Pontiac Vibe & Toyota Matrix.
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10vibe
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Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by 10vibe »

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-t ... r-no-money" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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KITT222
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KITT222 »

Really? Obama killed Pontiac? I'm not usually so blatant about it, but you are wrong. ESPECIALLY in the reason given at that article. Obama wasn't there, personally, to say that Pontiac had to die, nor was it motivated by environmentalism. If that were true, how would GMC have survived? Or Cadillac? It was about making money, and in the end the feds weren't going to finance a company which had a limb that was still hemorrhaging money. Pontiac made no cash in the past years, so they killed it.

Not everything is political, and this reason to kill Pontiac makes the most sense out of any of them I have heard in the FIVE years since the Pontiac brand stopped being produced. Sure, they were getting their image together, but it made no business sense to keep them alive.

Obama was not there saying GM had to end the Pontiac brand, nor was a guy there saying Pontiac didn't align with Obama's environmental image thus it had to be killed. I suppose you also believe the Volt was spearheaded by Obama as well...?
jake75
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by jake75 »

I don't think the OP was saying this was the truth - just pointing out the article that appeared in an publication known for sensationalism, not for journalistic "truth". If the G-8 was really profitable it could have been reincarnated as a Chevrolet or Buick. The California NUMMI plant was likely not profitable for Toyota or GM. Thus it was history. Even at the peak Vibe sales were relatively low. Found the info below.

IMO the Matrix decline was due to low availability which was caused by low profitability despite the relatively hefty price, and the fact that it probably cannibalized more profitable Toyota models.

Pontiac Vibe Sales - assume by Calendar year - not model year.
..... US ..... Canada
2002 39,082 ..... n/a
2003 56,922 ..... n/a
2004 58,894 ..... 10,025
2005 64,271 ..... 11,363
2006 45,221 ..... 11,444
2007 37,170 ..... 12,915
2008 46,551 ..... 17,335
2009 33,842 ..... 11,537
2010 97 ..... 1559
2011 --- ..... 20

Found this on the Matrix - "First offered in 2002, the Matrix sold in the 55,000-plus range for its first four years on the market, and averaged 47,000 sales per year through 2008. The slide began with the 2009 model—a tough time for many consumer items—and, oddly enough, coincided with the one major redesign of the Matrix. As of 2012, sales had declined to 4325, and, as Toyota points out, just 0.2 percent of its sales in the compact segment."
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
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kumquat
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by kumquat »

Click through to the Jalopnik article and read the full clarification. It paints a much different picture. Obama wanted GM to get rid of extraneous brands.

This quote really, really makes me long for what could have been:

"the next G6, was going to use the architecture of the cadillac ATS, it was going to be a 3-series sized rear-wheel Pontiac"

Anyway, here's the money quote about Pontiac specifically:

"but the Feds said "yeah, let's just, how much money have you made on pontiac in the last 10 years?" and the answer was "nothing." So, it goes. And, when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don't want pontiac, drop pontiac or you don't get the money, it doesn't take you very long to make up your mind."
KITT222
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KITT222 »

I agree, low sales tanked the brand. However, the G8 is actually returning as the Chevrolet SS, and GM has been selling its big brother as the Caprice to the police market.

I much prefer the Jalopnik article, mainly because they tend to stay near center. Unless it's about the new Malibu, that is. Or a Toyota that isn't the GT-86.
10vibe
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by 10vibe »

Yep, should of just posted the Jalopnik link instead! But hey, it was on the front page of the Bing news link this morning and had a catchy title.
Got to give the Examiner credit though. They know how to make a polarizing headline!
Considering the economy we were in, sure GM was considering cutting Pontiac even without the strong arm of the Feds, but the what-if's are interesting. A Pontiac that is like a Holden/BMW hybrid of designs, rear wheel drive and affordable performance oriented.
http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-killed-pon ... 1452735716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the posting Jake75. Those numbers are a little startling. Seems that I see too many of them, even the 09-10 Pontiac Vibes, for those numbers to be correct though. Then again, since I have moved to SW Ohio from NE Iowa, I see so many Pontiac Azteks that their production numbers do not make since either to me. This area must be a magnet for them. The amount of Mustangs around here is also incredible.

** Assume calender year sales, not model year**...makes more sense!
Last edited by 10vibe on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ColonelPanic
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by ColonelPanic »

I loved Pontiac and still dislike that the brand is gone, but I've learned to accept that it may have been the right thing for the business when death of the entire company was the alternative. :? I won't blame it on Obama, I would say GM is the one who killed Pontiac by running them into the ground for years. In hindsight, I now see how Pontiac was dead for quite a while. :cry:

At the end, the best they had to offer was a Holden halo car that nobody could afford (or even afford gas for at the time,) a pretty cool little roadster that was impractical for most, and a Toyota wagon that GM obviously never wanted considering the lack of support for its entire life. The rest were Malibus, Cobalts, and Daewoos parading around with arrowheads. Sure, there may have been good things in the pipeline, but that wasn't helping them at the time. GM always was quite skilled at that whole "too little too late" thing.
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kumquat
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by kumquat »

I could see Pontiac making a comeback in a few years. A new version of the G8, a downmarket ATS, and a powerful AWD hatchback would make a great lineup.

That last one might be wishful thinking, but the first two would sell.
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by jake75 »

I am not complaining because at my age and given my modest lifestyle I have little chance of running out of money, but we have been a substantial FORD stockholder since 1990 and it frosts me that Ford made it through without any taxpayer support while GM and Chrysler now has a competitive advantage due to their government subsidized bailout. I like the new Escape to the point that I might buy one. [The last Ford product I owned was a 1971 Lincoln Continental that was total disaster. I got rid of it in 1977 for $1,200 and it only had about 30,000 miles.]
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KITT222 »

Common misconception. Ford took bailout money. Even Toyota took some cash. The only reason they survived was because they cleared house, stripping themselves of all their brands, and even mortgaging the Ford logo. Ford are better desired overseas, and they were in a better position when the economy went bust. They were the darling of the media because they didn't go bust, and they were politicizing everything. Suddenly people judged your political opinion based on the car you owned. To me that is the stupidest result of the economic crisis (mainly due to the fact that I had a friend who kept pestering me about the Volt and why it was a flaming wreck, failure, and Obama's idea for an American car to fight the Prius. Soooooo many wrong ideas, some arising from the idea that GM stole Prius tech for the Volt from Toyota based on their partnership at NUMMI).

Escape is a decent vehicle. For a while I had the habit of calling it by its European name: Kuga. It handles well, and feels much better than the CR-V. CR-V is a boat in the worst way. It leaned WAAAY over in a rather gentle corner, and understeered at a low speed. The one I drove felt like it had no sway bars.
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by jake75 »

Yeh, Ford did it the old fashioned way. They managed their way out. No bankruptcy. Ford stockholders didn't get any dividends for awhile and the saw the stock decline to $2.50 a share but it is now back to $17. My cost basis is $6 from 1990. What money did Ford take from the govt/taxpayers?
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
Vulcan05
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by Vulcan05 »

jake75 wrote:Yeh, Ford did it the old fashioned way. They managed their way out. No bankruptcy. Ford stockholders didn't get any dividends for awhile and the saw the stock decline to $2.50 a share but it is now back to $17. My cost basis is $6 from 1990. What money did Ford take from the govt/taxpayers?
5.9 billion, borrowed June 2009:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller ... prise-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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10vibe
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by 10vibe »

Not to play semantics but technically the money received by Ford was not of the same program that was the bankruptsy bailout program. They were more of a bridge loans and guaranteed lines of credit, and DOE incentive programs to push the green agenda. And when it comes to who has paid back what and how much it is like a shell game, getting different governmental loans to pay back other governmental loans. Peter, meet Paul. If regular loan channels were fully available, and not hampered by the banking crisis and lack of new consumer loans for daily servicing of debt and cash flow, Ford probably could of still survived without them. GM and Chrysler could not. They had to basically have structured bankruptsies, debt foregiveness, and forced selloffs. Ford was in a much better position and was doing the right things for debt servicing, low interest loan refinancing, accelerated debt payoffs, and trimming and selling off unprofitable business for a few years ahead of this crisis. In other words, Ford was much better run with a much better business plan. Some of that was luck. The stockholders suffered in the short term for sound long term planning. But as a matter of course of business large companies that are financing large loans and cash flow requirements get low interest loans through the Fed Reserve and other programs all the time any way.
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jake75
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by jake75 »

Whatever - I do know that if I had GM or Chrysler stock instead of Ford, I'd be about $27,000 poorer today. The present div of 40 cents/yr is 2.3% of current market price. Better than money in the bank.
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
10vibe
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by 10vibe »

jake75 wrote:Whatever - I do know that if I had GM or Chrysler stock instead of Ford, I'd be about $27,000 poorer today. The present div of 40 cents/yr is 2.3% of current market price. Better than money in the bank.
Exactly. The poor people that held on to GM stock ended up with nothing. Same happened with my parents and Kmart stock.
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KITT222
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KITT222 »

10vibe wrote:
jake75 wrote:Whatever - I do know that if I had GM or Chrysler stock instead of Ford, I'd be about $27,000 poorer today. The present div of 40 cents/yr is 2.3% of current market price. Better than money in the bank.
Exactly. The poor people that held on to GM stock ended up with nothing. Same happened with my parents and Kmart stock.
All things considered, that was pretty much par for the course during the economic crisis. You can't single out GM for doing that, especially when Chrysler went through the exact same thing, and still aren't an IPO.
10vibe
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by 10vibe »

Chrysler was in a different position being privately held by Cerberus. Chrysler stopped being publicly traded on it's own in 1998 when Daimler bought them out. Now there might be a limited publicly traded IPO because of the UAW, but Fiat does not want it. They want to own it all and completely roll it into Fiat. Some interesting reading that kind of bookends Chrysler concerning being publicly traded. Cerberus owning 51% of GMAC at the time is really an interesting read.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/ec ... 3443_x.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chrysler- ... 45504.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162- ... p-for-ipo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_C ... Management" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Chiadog
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by Chiadog »

I bought a $42,553.00 car today! ... and so did YOU!
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/US- ... /id/533727
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KITT222 »

Chiadog wrote:I bought a $42,553.00 car today! ... and so did YOU!
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/US- ... /id/533727
Much cheaper than if they would have let the companies die, and have to pay them benefits. Besides, who said the government had to make money on anything? They're not a business. How much is lost per year on social security?
Vulcan05
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by Vulcan05 »

KITT222 wrote:
Chiadog wrote:I bought a $42,553.00 car today! ... and so did YOU!
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/US- ... /id/533727
Much cheaper than if they would have let the companies die, and have to pay them benefits. Besides, who said the government had to make money on anything? They're not a business. How much is lost per year on social security?
Money is "lost" on national parks, national monuments, EVERY military item from bullets to aircraft carriers, spying, foreign aid, FEMA aid, small business loans, the FBI, the CIA, etc etc etc. Think of the money we could "save" by eliminating everything the Federal Government spends money on.

The short shutdown cost over 24 billion dollars. Cutting all federal spending would put this country, and the WORLD, into a depression that would take generations to recover from.

Sit back, have some chips and a beer. Take a nap. The sky is not falling, it will be there when you wake up.
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Chiadog
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by Chiadog »

I recognize there are two sides to this political coin. I sincerely hope you guys are right and that there is nothing to worry about! As for me, I'll do some prepping.
jake75
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by jake75 »

Chiadog wrote:I recognize there are two sides to this political coin. I sincerely hope you guys are right and that there is nothing to worry about! As for me, I'll do some prepping.
I am glad I over saved for my retirement. But now the government keeps rewarding my frugality with things such as Part B & D premium surcharges and higher taxes on my Social Security. The trigger points for higher Part B and Part D premiums and taxation of Social Security benefits do not increase with inflation. Each year more and more people get hit by those additional taxes. Some think Social Security is an entitlement. I think free admission to the Smithsonian museums is an entitlement. It all depends on whose ox is being gored.
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KingTen91
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Re: Obama to GM, kill Pontiac

Post by KingTen91 »

Here's a link to see the video interview of Bob Lutz.
Fast forward to about 2:14:00 or so to hear him speaking on this issue.

http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-killed-pon ... 1452735716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, One of the things he mentions before that particular question is on crossovers and hatches, where if I understand him correctly he claims that today's market in America for some reason won't buy them, that even though they have many amenities that should appeal to us we just won't buy them. But I'm having trouble believing that. What about Ford focus? What about fiat, mini Cooper, vw golf? Not checked the numbers but Audi seemed to have had great success with their wagons here. I mean, maybe focus didn't really take off until recently, along with fiats didn't really get here to America until a year or so ago, but I feel like minis have been popular here pretty much since "The Italian Job" was revamped here in America with Wahlburg. I don't know, but it's a shame. If Pontiac would have stayed in the game with goals of rr drive and bringing back they're badge of dominance in the power category like they had back in the day, we could have very possibly been looking at hatches like the vibes to be competing with the likes of Focus St, Rt, Subaru legacys, Mazda speeds hatches, etc. We've already seen at least one on here take they're vibe and convert to not only rally but a WINNING rally car, as well as many others expressing interest in the subject. Really Pontiac just needed a couple more years. Pontiac's time is now.
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