Toyota sues GM (OLD GM)

The latest news on what's happening with the Pontiac Vibe & Toyota Matrix.
Post Reply
KNINE
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:52 am
Location: Suffolk, Va.

Toyota sues GM (OLD GM)

Post by KNINE »

http://www.theoaklandpress.com...5.txt
"Don't look to the government to solve your problems, the government is the problem." Ronald Reagan"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin.
User avatar
VforVIBE
Posts: 2835
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:44 am

Re: Toyota sues GM (K-NINE)

Post by VforVIBE »

Hmmm... never heard of Motors Liquidation Co or "old GM"... if I understand the article right, this has nothing to do with GM... I didn't think you could sue bankrupt companies anyway.
“I live my life free of compromise, and step into the shadows without complaint or regret.”
Image
Viva la Pontiac! 2009 Jet Black GT
ponta2147
Posts: 1476
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:49 am

Post by ponta2147 »

I've heard of "Old GM", it was basically a way to separate the current new company from its old, bad assets. Dunno how suing works in bankruptcy though... bankruptcy law kinda baffles me every time I try to take a look at it!
2009 2.4L Automatic with Preferred Package and Sun and Sound package May 2010 MOTM March 2011 VOTM
scherry2
Posts: 4073
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:02 am

Re: Toyota sues GM (K-NINE)

Post by scherry2 »

Toyota built the corolla and the tacoma and only built a minumum amount of vibes there but its GM's fault they closed. bull crap
jake75
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:33 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: (ponta2147)

Post by jake75 »

Quote, originally posted by ponta2147 »I've heard of "Old GM", it was basically a way to separate the current new company from its old, bad assets. Dunno how suing works in bankruptcy though... bankruptcy law kinda baffles me every time I try to take a look at it!Perhaps it is a way for them to get a greater share of the bankrupt estate. They probably made a "claim" and the bankruptcy trustee rejected all or part of it. At that point a judge has to decide if that was proper.From what I know, the entire GM Bankruptcy was atypical. A lot of GM assets were shielded from creditors - the bondholders were forced to take what is called a "cram down". Stockholders of course took a total bath.The survival of GM was paid for by all of us on the old theory that "what is good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA."
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
jake75
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:33 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Toyota sues GM (scherry2)

Post by jake75 »

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »Toyota built the corolla and the tacoma and only built a minumum amount of vibes there but its GM's fault they closed. bull crapWALL ST JRL - 11-30-10"Nummi said slow sales of the Vibe prior to the plant's closure and GM's refusal to make good on a promise to sell the hatchback for at least two more years left the joint venture unable to pay off the $1.6 billion worth of machinery, tooling and other purchases made in 2006 to start Vibe production." Don't know where they got the "2006". Perhaps those were additional investments in kmachinery etc.I think any fair assessment of the NUMMI situation is that Toyota took a beating, just like most anyone with a "marriage" that goes sour. GM's lack of sales effort directed toward the Vibe was evident - but that may have been because it was not profitable. I bought two Vibes (03, 09) because the rebates etc. made it a no brainer. But at anywhere near MSRP there were several other good if not better alternatives. Loss of the Vibe production probably was the straw that broke the camel's back. Had GM hung in there until 2012 that likely would have at least delayed the NUMMI closing. But that closing might have been e inevitable at some point due to the California cost structure.
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
zionzr2
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:59 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by zionzr2 »

I guess K-nine beat me to the punch on this news.
scherry2
Posts: 4073
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:02 am

Re: Toyota sues GM (jake75)

Post by scherry2 »

Quote, originally posted by jake75 » Had GM hung in there until 2012 that likely would have at least delayed the NUMMI closing. But that closing might have been e inevitable at some point due to the California cost structure. so your saying it wasn't gm. I guess stamping machinery and parts for the new vibe, not matrix interchangable, made by NUMMI would cost something. but I think 70 million is a tad high
jake75
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:33 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Toyota sues GM (scherry2)

Post by jake75 »

Quote, originally posted by scherry2 »so you're saying it wasn't gm. I guess stamping machinery and parts for the new vibe, not matrix interchangeable, made by NUMMI would cost something. but I think 70 million is a tad highNo, what I am saying is that GM did not live up to its contractual commitments (promises) and that failure resulted in financial losses to Toyota . Now Toyota appears to be trying to get those losses included as a valid claim in the bankruptcy. "Old GM" only has so many assets, it is apparently just a fight as to how that is dribbled out to creditors. All of the creditors are going to take the proverbial "hair cut" on that one. As taxpayers we can say "welcome to the club".In the long run NUMMI might have failed anyway, but the cost of that failure to Toyota would have been less if GM had lived up to its end of the bargain.Another way of looking at it, the cost of any NUMMI failure would by contract be shared between Toyota and GM. GM went belly-up and Toyota got stuck with more than their contractual share of the cost so they contend that is a valid claim against the bankrupt assets.In any contract breach, the party seeking damages must take reasonable steps to mitigate their losses. You suggest that buying significantly less than $70 mil in stamping machinery would have made Matrix production at NUMMI possible. But then Toyota would have had to make up for the lack of utilization at their Canadian plant.
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
scherry2
Posts: 4073
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:02 am

Re: Toyota sues GM (jake75)

Post by scherry2 »

Quote, originally posted by jake75 » You suggest that buying significantly less than $70 mil in stamping machinery would have made Matrix production at NUMMI possible. But then Toyota would have had to make up for the lack of utilization at their Canadian plant. I'm saying the dies used in stamping "vibe only" parts and parts made by nummi for the vibe didn't cost 70 million. the cost for machinery to use the dies is irrellevant. Toyota didn't and doesn't have the sales in matrixs to warrant 2 plants producing them.
IMakeVibes
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:11 am

Re: Toyota sues GM (K-NINE)

Post by IMakeVibes »

Good!NUMMI (or whats left of it in a small office several blocks from the plant) is also separately suing GM. http://online.wsj.com/article/...ticleAs far as where they got their 2006 and $70 million numbers. Major model was change was '09. A lot of new equipment was purchased for this. Not just stamping dies, hundreds of robots in body weld, new equipment in paint, plastics, and assembly. A lot of equipment that wasn't replaced had to be modified. I've got no clue how much it all costs or how they split the GM and Toyota costs, but it is a lot of money. As someone who was there through it all, I gotta admit, Toyota and NUMMI treated us fairly well as a whole, although there are many individuals who may think differently. I do think that if they wanted to, Toyota could have kept that place open and ran it on their own - they basically did run it and had most of the input of running it as is. But it was a business decision. With the high costs and crazy business climate in California, combined with the fact that it was the only unionized plant in North America that Toyota was affiliated with, I can't blame them for wanting to bail out. But if it had to be done, they did us right. They gave us 8 months notice. Apparently when GM closed it the first time, people just showed to work one day to a locked plant. They also gave us a bit of a retention package that they didn't have to give us. Granted, it wasn't nearly as much as the buy out offers both Toyota and GM offered their employees over the last few years. But considering the fact that they didn't have to give us anything, it wasn't a bad deal. They also set us up with job fairs, training classes, and other things. GM on the other hand, they just bailed and left town man. That place was built as a GM plant in the '60's. GM ran that place on their own through the early 80's. And when GM bailed for the second time, they just left. Didn't want to have anything to do with helping out the employees or the costs of shutting down the plant. NUMMI ran a fairly clean operation. But technology and environmental regulations have changed a lot from the 60's to now. It hasn't been proven, but many think there is a lot of lead and other crap in the ground and on that site from over 40 years of automobile manufacturing there. And if there is, GM should pay their fair share for cleaning it up. And honestly, they didn't have to, wasn't anything in our labor contract, but they should have done a little something to help employees, just as Toyota did. Toyota was smart though. NUMMI, including all land and buildings, was valued at $1 billion the last couple of months while we were in operation. Toyota turned around, sold the plant to Tesla for $42 million, and then bought $50 million in Tesla stock...basically gave them the plant. I could be wrong, but I think that was Toyota's way of getting out of the liability of having to clean up that site should it be used for something else. Back on topic, I hope NUMMI and Toyota get all they are suing GM for, although the fact that they bailed out while they were in bankruptcy may make that impossible.
Post Reply