AC clutch relay

Technical info on the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix including do-it-yourself info
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Macadoo
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AC clutch relay

Post by Macadoo »

Hello everyone,
My wife owns an 03 Vibe and the AC stopped working. I can't get the clutch to engage to check the refrigerant pressure. I've been researching for days and have discovered I can short the B1 and B4 terminals in the relay socket of the M/G CLT relay but mine has no markings. Nor does the socket. Can anyone tell me (from the pic) which pins need to be shorted? I don't want to just randomly short terminals, I'm guessing bad things could happen. The relay has two copper terminals and two silver (colored).
I've tried swapping out the relay for the horn relay and the under-dash fuse looks fine. And the clutch spins freely by hand.
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Thanks very much,
-Macadoo
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

welcome to genvibe

From viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37869" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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jumper the two marked in the picture, the ones that correspond to the larger copper terminals on your relay, and if that doesn't work, try a jumper from the battery + (red) terminal to the contact labelled "12V to Clutch"

I'd try it first with the engine not running, should be a noticeable clack sound if the clutch engages
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Macadoo
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Macadoo »

Thanks joatmon, I'll try it.
Macadoo
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Macadoo »

I tried both, shorting the terminals and running directly from the positive of the battery to the "to clutch" terminal. Nothing. Anything else to check before I take it to the shop?
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trb
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by trb »

Pull the wire off the AC clutch itself and check it for 12V when you jump the terminals. That will confirm if the wiring to the clutch is good or not, or if it has a problem with the clutch itself.

So does the compressor turn manually?
Thomas
the "Mustang Guy"
1987 5.0 LX Mustang
2016 Mustang GT - current daily
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2003 Neptune Vibe GT - prior daily
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Macadoo
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Macadoo »

Thanks trb, I'll try that. Is there just one wire and does it run to the compressor or the compressor clutch? Any special settings for my multimeter? And yes, the clutch turns easily by hand (with the motor off of course).
Thanks.
Macadoo
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Macadoo »

Well crud, I have power getting to the clutch. Thanks for the tips everyone. At least I know it isn't just the relay.
-Mac
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

Macadoo wrote:Well crud, I have power getting to the clutch.
I had that same sinking feeling only a couple of months ago.

The AC clutch is a separately replaceable part, so if you take it to a shop, my advice is to not let them talk you into the more expensive job of a full compressor replacement. Granted, there may be other things wrong with the AC system you can't know about until the clutch is working, but I think it is worth the chance that the clutch is the only thing wrong, based on my one data point that the clutch was the only thing wrong with mine

Don't know what a shop would charge for that job, perhaps a couple of hours of not cheap labor. GM part number is 88972204, and the GM list price for the AC clutch kit is about $200, but you can get the part cheaper on line. Pretty sure Toyota used a different compressor, so although quite often parts from a Matrix or corolla will fit the vibe, this is one case where you need the GM part.

Also, the clutch is basically a large solenoid, the coil is a sealed unit, don't bother hoping it can be fixed by means other than replacing it. Mine developed an open in the winding somewhere
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triz
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by triz »

If you need a AC Compressor I have one off a 2zz with 30k miles. 75+shipping.
http://lubedealer.com/mr2ner/home.aspx Please use ZO#5172967
Member discounts when you sign up as Preffered Customer. New Amsoil Customers only
Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow »

Sorry to revive an old thread I just wanted to jump in and say THANK YOU to @joatmon for the picture . I was able to start up my compressor for a split second this way to ascertain that it's not dead, probably just all the refrigerant leaked out over 13 years, which is understandable. Getting some more 12a coolant tomorrow and hopefullly will be able to revive my AC now that winter has finally come to Vancouver!
2004 Pontiac Vibe Base Automatic Orange on Gray Cladding
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tpollauf
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by tpollauf »

Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow wrote:Getting some more 134a coolant tomorrow and hopefully will be able to revive my AC now that summer has finally come to Vancouver!
That looks better ;)
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
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Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow »

tpollauf wrote:
Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow wrote:Getting some more 134a coolant tomorrow and hopefully will be able to revive my AC now that summer has finally come to Vancouver!
That looks better ;)
Haha force of habit
Tho 12a unfortunately is all they sell here ... :/
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Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow »

I'll dig this up one more time to say

I was successful in reviving my air conditioner for $50 Canadian and 1 hour of labor

When your AC compressor isn't engaging

Check the fuse under the steering wheel
Check the relay switch under the hood in the instrument panel (i think it's what it's called)

Get an AC recharge kit

hook up the refill hose to the low-end pressure valve of the AC
short-out the relay switch as per higher up in this thread , with a paperclip
turn on the engine
turn on the AC
puncture the 12A/134A tank by turning clockwise all the way its knozzle
and let it refill for a while until the pressure gauge goes uup to between 35-60psi (the green zone on your gauge)

if you suspect a leak, you can also use a leak-seal spray can that should patch it up

bam , freezing cold AC air once again

<3 GenVibe
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bull77
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by bull77 »

Wanted to say thanks to the community for all your help :D

My 06's ac died and I followed the steps here to get it running again:

- checked fuses
- swapped fuses
- clutch can freely spin
- bought ac recharge kit
- gerry rigged fuse from battery engaging clutch
- filled with recharge kit
- success!!

Thanks again GenVibe --> 340,000kms and still runs like new -- wooohoooo
Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

Macadoo wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:07 pm Thanks trb, I'll try that. Is there just one wire and does it run to the compressor or the compressor clutch? Any special settings for my multimeter? And yes, the clutch turns easily by hand (with the motor off of course).
Thanks.
I only see one wire /connector and that is the one that is connected to the alternator. Is that what you used? And how did you do it? Use multimeter or connect the wire to the battery?
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

Welcome to genvibe!
Brandman wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:53 pm I only see one wire /connector and that is the one that is connected to the alternator. Is that what you used? And how did you do it? Use multimeter or connect the wire to the battery?
There is a wire that runs to the AC compressor, as shown in the attached images from a 2003 Vibe, should be the same for 03-08's, don't know what year you have. Matrixes are slightly different

I think the test step you are asking about is to disconnect that wire from the compressor, and with the engine running and the AC turned on, use a multimeter to check the voltage between that cable end connector (only has one pin) and ground, either the engine block or the battery negative terminal. If you read nothing, then there could be a problem with the fuse or relay or something else not allowing the 12V to get to the compressor to activate the clutch. If you read 12V from the connector to ground (11, 12,13,14 volts, somewhere in that range) then the voltage is getting to the clutch, and assuming you are doing this because the clutch doesn't activate, then you probably have a bad clutch. ( but standard caveat, I don't guarantee anything)
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Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

joatmon wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:00 am Welcome to genvibe!
Brandman wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:53 pm I only see one wire /connector and that is the one that is connected to the alternator. Is that what you used? And how did you do it? Use multimeter or connect the wire to the battery?
There is a wire that runs to the AC compressor, as shown in the attached images from a 2003 Vibe, should be the same for 03-08's, don't know what year you have. Matrixes are slightly different

I think the test step you are asking about is to disconnect that wire from the compressor, and with the engine running and the AC turned on, use a multimeter to check the voltage between that cable end connector (only has one pin) and ground, either the engine block or the battery negative terminal. If you read nothing, then there could be a problem with the fuse or relay or something else not allowing the 12V to get to the compressor to activate the clutch. If you read 12V from the connector to ground (11, 12,13,14 volts, somewhere in that range) then the voltage is getting to the clutch, and assuming you are doing this because the clutch doesn't activate, then you probably have a bad clutch. ( but standard caveat, I don't guarantee anything)

Thank you for responding after all this time! That information really helps. I will check it and find out soon.
Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

Okay I tested the connector and ground for 12v and it read 0.57. What is the next course of action and why is it not delivering 12v?
Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

joatmon wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:00 am Welcome to genvibe!
Brandman wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:53 pm I only see one wire /connector and that is the one that is connected to the alternator. Is that what you used? And how did you do it? Use multimeter or connect the wire to the battery?
There is a wire that runs to the AC compressor, as shown in the attached images from a 2003 Vibe, should be the same for 03-08's, don't know what year you have. Matrixes are slightly different

I think the test step you are asking about is to disconnect that wire from the compressor, and with the engine running and the AC turned on, use a multimeter to check the voltage between that cable end connector (only has one pin) and ground, either the engine block or the battery negative terminal. If you read nothing, then there could be a problem with the fuse or relay or something else not allowing the 12V to get to the compressor to activate the clutch. If you read 12V from the connector to ground (11, 12,13,14 volts, somewhere in that range) then the voltage is getting to the clutch, and assuming you are doing this because the clutch doesn't activate, then you probably have a bad clutch. ( but standard caveat, I don't guarantee anything)

It read 0.57v. What’s making it do that?
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

You never said what year you had, so assuming 03-08. If 09 to 10, this may not apply.

There are a number of things that can prevent 12V getting to the clutch. A lot has been discussed above and in viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37869

There is a clutch relay in the underhood fuse block. See the picture above.
With the car not running pull that relay and use a wire to connect 12V from the battery to the relay socket terminal marked 12V to clutch. If the clutch engages, then you will know that the clutch and the wire going from the fuse block to the clutch are ok. If the clutch doesn't engage, then either the clutch or the wire from the fuse block to the clutch is bad.

To test the wire,disconnect the wire from the clutch, and either 1) use a multimeter to test for connectivity between the wire end and the To clutch terminal of the relay socket or 2) use a wire to put battery + on the To clutch terminal of the relay socket and use a multimeter to look for 12V between the end of the wire and ground. Seems like the probability is low that a problem would be in the wire.

If that all tests ok, then with the ignition ON (not off or acc, and the engine need not be running, as long as the HVAC blower will run), use a multimeter to check for 12V between the clutch relay socket terminal marked 12V from Fuse and ground. If you don't get 12V there, then check or replace the 10A AC fuse in the unpleasant to access under dash fuse block. (I suspect that if that fuse was bad, the AC switch wouldn't light up when pushed)

Now if everything so far checks ok, use kostby's trick from that other thread to put 12V between the two smaller silver contacts on the relay itself, you should feel the relay activate. If it does, then while activated you should be able to use a multimeter to check for connectivity between the two larger contacts on the relay

When the engine is running and you hit the AC button on the dash, it sends a signal to the car computer. The computer should then put out a ground to the AC clutch relay coil, the other end of the relay coil is 12V from the AC fuse. This will engage the clutch relay, and send 12V from the AC fuse to the AC clutch, The AC clutch is an electromagnet, the other end of it gets ground from mechanical connection to the engine block. When the 21V hits the AC clutch, it pulls in the shaft of the AC compressor, where it grabs the otherwise fee spinning compressor pulley. All the electrical stuff above could be fine and the AC still not engage if the car computer decides to not send a ground to the AC clutch relay. it might do that if the refrigerant pressure is out of tolerance, or perhaps for some other reason. Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow above tested his electrical parts, but then had to add refrigerant to get his working again.
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Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

joatmon wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:01 am You never said what year you had, so assuming 03-08. If 09 to 10, this may not apply.

There are a number of things that can prevent 12V getting to the clutch. A lot has been discussed above and in viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37869

There is a clutch relay in the underhood fuse block. See the picture above.
With the car not running pull that relay and use a wire to connect 12V from the battery to the relay socket terminal marked 12V to clutch. If the clutch engages, then you will know that the clutch and the wire going from the fuse block to the clutch are ok. If the clutch doesn't engage, then either the clutch or the wire from the fuse block to the clutch is bad.

To test the wire,disconnect the wire from the clutch, and either 1) use a multimeter to test for connectivity between the wire end and the To clutch terminal of the relay socket or 2) use a wire to put battery + on the To clutch terminal of the relay socket and use a multimeter to look for 12V between the end of the wire and ground. Seems like the probability is low that a problem would be in the wire.

If that all tests ok, then with the ignition ON (not off or acc, and the engine need not be running, as long as the HVAC blower will run), use a multimeter to check for 12V between the clutch relay socket terminal marked 12V from Fuse and ground. If you don't get 12V there, then check or replace the 10A AC fuse in the unpleasant to access under dash fuse block. (I suspect that if that fuse was bad, the AC switch wouldn't light up when pushed)

Now if everything so far checks ok, use kostby's trick from that other thread to put 12V between the two smaller silver contacts on the relay itself, you should feel the relay activate. If it does, then while activated you should be able to use a multimeter to check for connectivity between the two larger contacts on the relay

When the engine is running and you hit the AC button on the dash, it sends a signal to the car computer. The computer should then put out a ground to the AC clutch relay coil, the other end of the relay coil is 12V from the AC fuse. This will engage the clutch relay, and send 12V from the AC fuse to the AC clutch, The AC clutch is an electromagnet, the other end of it gets ground from mechanical connection to the engine block. When the 21V hits the AC clutch, it pulls in the shaft of the AC compressor, where it grabs the otherwise fee spinning compressor pulley. All the electrical stuff above could be fine and the AC still not engage if the car computer decides to not send a ground to the AC clutch relay. it might do that if the refrigerant pressure is out of tolerance, or perhaps for some other reason. Hope2BuyVibeTomorrow above tested his electrical parts, but then had to add refrigerant to get his working again.

By wire do you mean like alligator clamps or a paper clip?
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

Pull the relay, and with the ignition on (engine need not be running) use a multimeter to check that you have 12V between the relay socket marked 12V from fuse and the battery negative terminal. If you have that, then you can use a bent paper clip or a pair of needle nose pliers or a scrap piece of another wire to jumper the 12V from fuse and 12V to clutch pins in the relay socket.

If this doesn't cause the AC clutch to activate, leave it jumpered and disconnect the factory wire from the AC clutch, and use a multimeter to check for 12V between the now loose connector on the end of that factory wire and the battery negative terminal. If that gets you 12V, then the factory wire from the fuse block to the AC clutch is ok.

If for some reason you do not get 12V on the "12V from fuse" pin of the relay socket, you can do the same test by using a scrap wire, coat hanger, a series of twisted paper clips, or any other electrical conductor long enough to connect the 12V to clutch pin of the relay socket to the battery positive terminal.



On an only slightly related topic, 12V is relatively safe, no need to worry about shorting it out with your hands like you should be afraid to do with house current, but you need to be careful to not short out the battery to ground with anything metal. One time I was removing the cable from the battery positive terminal, and somehow managed to have the wrench contact my metal watch band, which was resting on the frame. I didn't feel any electrical shock, but it arc welded a little nub of metal between the wrench and the watch band, and the watch band got hot enough to raise a burn blister on my wrist. Now I always remove the battery negative terminal first.
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Brandman
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by Brandman »

joatmon wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:49 am Pull the relay, and with the ignition on (engine need not be running) use a multimeter to check that you have 12V between the relay socket marked 12V from fuse and the battery negative terminal. If you have that, then you can use a bent paper clip or a pair of needle nose pliers or a scrap piece of another wire to jumper the 12V from fuse and 12V to clutch pins in the relay socket.

If this doesn't cause the AC clutch to activate, leave it jumpered and disconnect the factory wire from the AC clutch, and use a multimeter to check for 12V between the now loose connector on the end of that factory wire and the battery negative terminal. If that gets you 12V, then the factory wire from the fuse block to the AC clutch is ok.

If for some reason you do not get 12V on the "12V from fuse" pin of the relay socket, you can do the same test by using a scrap wire, coat hanger, a series of twisted paper clips, or any other electrical conductor long enough to connect the 12V to clutch pin of the relay socket to the battery positive terminal.



On an only slightly related topic, 12V is relatively safe, no need to worry about shorting it out with your hands like you should be afraid to do with house current, but you need to be careful to not short out the battery to ground with anything metal. One time I was removing the cable from the battery positive terminal, and somehow managed to have the wrench contact my metal watch band, which was resting on the frame. I didn't feel any electrical shock, but it arc welded a little nub of metal between the wrench and the watch band, and the watch band got hot enough to raise a burn blister on my wrist. Now I always remove the battery negative terminal first.

So I checked the “12v from fuse” and negativity battery terminal and it has 12 volts. I then put a paper clip into “12v from fuse” and “12v to clutch” and clutch did not activate. I then unplugged the connector and tested negativity battery terminal and it had 12 volts. So means wire is good, correct? With this being said, does this mean my clutch is shot?
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joatmon
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Re: AC clutch relay

Post by joatmon »

seems like the only thing left is a bad compressor clutch

I've only replaced one of those, was able to do it without disconnecting the compressor refrigerant lines, but I can't remember how
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