Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Handling, suspension, and brake tuning discussions
Capt.Vibe
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal, QC

Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby Capt.Vibe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:43 am

About a month or ago after switching my winter tires my mechanic recommended brakes and new hubs for the rear due to noise and rust. I also decided to replace the badly rusted and chipped brake dust shield since everything was pretty much going to be coming out. I'll try and give as much detailed info as I can.

I purchased all the brake parts and my mechanic got 2 rear hubs (Mevotech) and both OEM dust shields from Toyota as GM no longer sells them. Brakes were OEM rotors (19184534), new OEM TRW calipers (19204182 & 19204183), Bosch QuietCast pads (BC1354) new Delco slide pins (19287332) new Bushings (19308010). The caliper bracket was fine, mechanic ground off the rust and cleaned the bores. System was bled after all work was completed.

Everything felt fine for a bit but as the weather got warmer and I opened my windows I could hear a metallic rattle coming from the back on heavy bumps or uneven pavement. Thinking it was suspension, I went back to the shop. Mechanic looked it over took it for a test drive. Noise was present, then he yanked on the handbrake as the car was moving, noise disappeared whenever brakes were applied. So we went over the entire install piece by piece. Noticed caliper was slightly loose and could be moved with force. Re-tightened everything, off I went. Few days later same thing. We tried new guide pins Dorman (HW14470), caliper feels more snug but still moves slightly so the rattle is still there.

At this point, the next move is to just go with a junk yard caliper but I REALLY don't want to do that for obvious reasons. I've checked the OEM diagrams, nothing seems to be out of order. Any ideas? Is there any additional parts missing here?
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA


jolt
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby jolt » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:36 pm

Most rattling noises from brakes are from the pads. When you apply the brakes, the pads are tight on the rotor and are shifted tight in the caliper mount by the wheel rotation. Because the pads are tight, the noise goes away. Most of the time the rattle is caused by pad hardware/clips not being replaced or are in the wrong location on the pad. Some things to check that you did not say in the details, and it is the little details that will bite you so:

The caliper guide pins do not fit tight in the caliper bore holes and will be slightly loose. Inspect the slide pin bores of the caliper for corrosion and wear. The bores should be smooth inside with no lips or ridges. Clean the components in denatured alcohol or an equivalent brake parts cleaner. Replace the caliper if the slide pin bores are damaged. The pins have rubber bushings at the ends of the pins that should be replaced along with the pin dust boot. Make sure the caliper slide pins are lubricated with lithium soap base glycol grease or Silicone Brake Lubricant. Permatex 24129 Silicone Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant is what I used on mine. Do not mix the two different grease types, be sure to clean bore and pins of all old lube before applying new grease to pins and bores.

Also all the proper brake pad retainers and pad backing plates (insulators) need to be in the proper locations so that you do not get noise from a rattling pad in the caliper mount. Follow pad manufactures info for the insulators as different pad manufactures have their own recommendations. I used Wagner Thermoquiet pads and in the box Wagner said not to use any insulators as they were built into the back of the Wagner Thermoquiet pads. Ensure the disc brake grease covers the area where the insulators contact the back of the pads and the caliper mount. This also helps quiet pad noise which is why you put grease on the back of the pads. DO NOT get any of the grease on the face of the pad or rotor.

Capt.Vibe
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby Capt.Vibe » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:04 pm

jolt wrote:Most rattling noises from brakes are from the pads. When you apply the brakes, the pads are tight on the rotor and are shifted tight in the caliper mount by the wheel rotation. Because the pads are tight, the noise goes away. Most of the time the rattle is caused by pad hardware/clips not being replaced or are in the wrong location on the pad. Some things to check that you did not say in the details, and it is the little details that will bite you so:

Also all the proper brake pad retainers and pad backing plates (insulators) need to be in the proper locations so that you do not get noise from a rattling pad in the caliper mount. Follow pad manufactures info for the insulators as different pad manufactures have their own recommendations. I used Wagner Thermoquiet pads and in the box Wagner said not to use any insulators as they were built into the back of the Wagner Thermoquiet pads. Ensure the disc brake grease covers the area where the insulators contact the back of the pads and the caliper mount. This also helps quiet pad noise which is why you put grease on the back of the pads. DO NOT get any of the grease on the face of the pad or rotor.


Thanks for your response Jolt. At this point I'm inclined to say it could be the pads. I double checked everything this morning. Re-lubed everything again, removed and re-installed the pads yet the noise persists. I'm baffled. The pad clips Bosch included in the box really mount/snap onto the bracket one way, not sure where I could go wrong. I used the included lube on the shims but there were no instructions. The strange thing, this is the second time I use Bosch BC1354 cause a few years back I used them and had a good experience. You mentioned you used Wagner Thermoquiet pads, I just checked on Amazon part number (QC1423) and there is triangle shaped clip that was not included in my set. Frankly, most of the other brands don't show this clip in the photos. Also don't recall seeing this on the original set-up. Any idea what that is and could that be the missing link??

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B004A6 ... 9163197011

See photos of included hardware differences

https://www.amazon.ca/Bosch-BC1354-Quie ... -0&sr=1-10
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA


ehoff121
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Conn.

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby ehoff121 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:59 am

The triangle clips are drag reduction spring clips. Non-Vibe example:

Image

They help push the pads apart and off of the rotor when the brake pedal is released.

However, one of the caliper slide pins in each caliper has a rubber bushing at the end (as jolt said) that makes it act like a piston; when the brake pedal is pressed, the caliper contracts and compresses the air in the slide pin chamber. When the brake pedal is released, the compressed air pushes the caliper apart, so this clip is technically unnecessary (if there wasn't one there originally).

Is it possible that there is too much brake grease in the pad brackets, allowing them to slide around?
2005 Pontiac Vibe AWD - Platinum

Capt.Vibe
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby Capt.Vibe » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:03 pm

ehoff121 wrote:The triangle clips are drag reduction spring clips. Non-Vibe example:

Image

They help push the pads apart and off of the rotor when the brake pedal is released.

However, one of the caliper slide pins in each caliper has a rubber bushing at the end (as jolt said) that makes it act like a piston; when the brake pedal is pressed, the caliper contracts and compresses the air in the slide pin chamber. When the brake pedal is released, the compressed air pushes the caliper apart, so this clip is technically unnecessary (if there wasn't one there originally).

Is it possible that there is too much brake grease in the pad brackets, allowing them to slide around?



I installed those small bushings at the end of the guide pins, except all 4 had that little space for the bushing to slide in. Here are the guide pins I installed first. >>>> https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.ph ... 4512&jsn=1

Then I tried the Dormans >>>> https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-86344- ... ition=Rear

Even the bushing kit includes 4 of these small bushings. >> https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.ph ... 7800&jsn=4

So you are saying the original ones have 1 solid pin without a bushing and one pin with the indent for the bushing? Would the above pins cause some slack in the caliper? Why on earth would the aftermarket kits not include one solid pin? Really confused.
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA


ehoff121
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Conn.

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby ehoff121 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Sorry, I don't know about your rear caliper having two bushings. The Toyotas I've worked on only have one pin with a bushing. Can a 2nd gen owner chime in here please?

Also, what is a 1SA? Is that the same as a GT? Is there a difference in rear caliper?
2005 Pontiac Vibe AWD - Platinum

Capt.Vibe
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby Capt.Vibe » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:46 am

ehoff121 wrote:Sorry, I don't know about your rear caliper having two bushings. The Toyotas I've worked on only have one pin with a bushing. Can a 2nd gen owner chime in here please?

Also, what is a 1SA? Is that the same as a GT? Is there a difference in rear caliper?



If you click on the link to the slide pins I used, the kits include 2 pins that are exactly the same, as in both have the indentation for the small bushing. If it is correct that only one pin has the bushing and the other is a straight solid pin then the aftermarket parts are not correct. Why on earth would they sell pins that are not correct? Would this be the reason there is some slack in the caliper? How I wish I kept the OEM pins I pulled out, they were a bit gunky and rusty so I tossed them out. If only I had known I'd have these issues....

1SA is the base trim. As far as I know, all 1.8L Vibe/Matrix use the exact same rear set-up, the emergency brake is integrated into the caliper. The 2.4L/GT has a different caliper with a drum style e-brake. If someone can confirm the pins please do.
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA


zbyers
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby zbyers » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:22 am

I'm not too familiar with 2nd gen set ups...But I know many parts stores list a weirdly wide variety of calipers for the 2nd gen, whether it's a base 1.8L, FWD 2.4L, AWD 2.4L, or GT 2.4L. Could it be the pins or something are for a different variant? I believe even the Matrices of the same years/models list different parts, oddly enough.
Ruby- 03 Salsa, Ray[is]AWD- 04 Salsa AWD, Simon- 03 Silver "Faux by Four"
Raven- 03 Abyss GT, Neptune- 05 AWD, Robyn- 07 Stealth Gray Metallic, Mystic- 09 AWD

GenVibe on Facebook, Everything You Need To Know About Vibes, Great How-To Index

jolt
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby jolt » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:24 pm

My 2.4L FWD '09 (not a GT) has and had caliper pins just as your links show, with the rubber bushings on both pins for each caliper. It only had about 30,000 miles on the car when I bought it so I am pretty sure it was factory that way. I believe there are three different calipers for the rear of the second gen Vibe's. 1.8L, the 2.4L, and the AWD/GT.

You asked about the Wagner pad clips and ehoff121 pictures showing them is correct. In the Wagner pad backing plate are little holes where the spring clips go in to help hold the pads back against the caliper piston. These spring clips are not on the OEM pads. That being said, I did not install those spring clips. I did not see any good way that the clips could stay in the pads securely, they were not used with the original pads. I sand blaster all the rust from the caliper mounting bracket and the new pads fit loose and free for the pad tabs. When first taking the car out for a test drive, I could hear a thud from the brakes right as you would first apply the brakes. I know everything was working fine and the noise was from the looseness of the pads in the slots for the brake pads. A couple of days later my wife brought up about the noise when braking. I knew what it was and left it. Now two months later and the noise is gone as some rust has formed back in the pad tabs/slots and has tighten things back up. No more noise when you first apply the brakes.

There is one of the clips for the pads that holds the pad from shifting forward and backwards in the slots. These clips need to be installed toward the back of the car on both the drives side and the passenger side. There is nothing to keep the pads from moving up and down in the tab slots if the pads fit loose but some rust can fill in and stop that movement and noise. A lot of people do not remove the rust from the pad mounting slots and end up with pads that wear out right away because the pad can not move in the slot. Other have said that the replacement pads they bought fit to tight in the slots and they had to grind the tabs on the pads to get the pads to fit into the slots.

Capt.Vibe
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Rear Caliper Loose After Brake Replacement '10 Vibe

Postby Capt.Vibe » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:37 pm

I also noticed there are 3 different calipers for each different trim, 1.8L, 2.4L/GT and AWD. I scoured the internet trying to find a video or a DIY for rear brake jobs on a 1.8L Matrix/Vibe/Corolla. For such a common car there are remarkably few DIY and none that actually remove and service the guide pins. This one has my TRW caliper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGT9ghKb0uo but the guy doesn't remove the pins at all. :cry: Couldn't find anything over at Toyota Nation either. Just my luck.

Surely some here have serviced their own rear brakes? I took it to 2 shops over the weekend, both wanted to replace all the new parts I replaced with (surprise surprise) yet more new parts at a cost of near $1000. If anyone comes across a DIY for rear brakes, or pics of guide pins please post.
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA



Return to “Handling, Suspension, & Brakes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests