AWD Coilovers

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bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

Hey guys, I am new to the board and I have a few questions I could not seem to get a definitive answer on by hunting around the net....

My vehicle is a 2005 Pontiac Vibe. I am in the process of a major drive-train swap, and I would like to run a set of coilovers on the car with custom spring rates to support the additional weight (as well as the transfer of weight). Being that it was originally AWD I have read over and over that guys claim the FWD coilovers will not work in the AWD application....but I guess I don't understand why?

I get that the shocks are different...but they don't appear different enough to render a set of coilovers useless? They have near identical measurements all the way around...

Here are the specs on the AWD strut:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinf ... cc=1432959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here are the specs on the FWD strut:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinf ... cc=1432959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both use the same style bottom mount, and top hat. So what is the issue? I see that the spring perch is in different positions, but being the coilovers are adjustable, shouldn't we be able to compensate accordingly?

Is it simply because of the spring rates that the FWD ship with (which wouldn't matter to me anyways since I am ordering customs). Are they just that soft that they can't support the weight of the IRS and differential?

Thanks in advance for your response.
keithvibe
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Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by keithvibe »

The fronts are the same.
The rears are different because the AWD has independed rear susp where the 2wd is a tortion beam.
The spring rates are different because of the added weight.
The top hats for the rear are different.
bolt holes are different sizes
Look at celica coilovers 05+
You will need to inlarge the front bolt holes to fit.
2010 Vibe & member of the yeargarage Email me if you need to talk to me, click my siggy and send the email threw the contact page.
Salsa Guy
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 pm
Location: Greater Tulsa Area

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by Salsa Guy »

What kind of drive train swap?
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-h ... -vibe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

keithvibe wrote:The fronts are the same.
The rears are different because the AWD has independed rear susp where the 2wd is a tortion beam.
The spring rates are different because of the added weight.
The top hats for the rear are different.
bolt holes are different sizes
Look at celica coilovers 05+
You will need to inlarge the front bolt holes to fit.
I understand the rear is IRS as where the regular Matrix/ Vibe has a torsion beam, but that still doesn't explain what is physically different between the strut not allowing them to work?

Given the information I posted, there is less then a .5" difference between overall height, travel and etc from the FWD versus the AWD...
Both use the same upper mount, both use the same lower eye lid mount....

This leads me to believe that the rate of dampening (compression and rebound), in conjunction with the overall spring height/ rate are the only major differences. Being that the coil-overs all have adjustable dampening, what is stopping me from purchasing a stiffer or lighter spring and using off the shelf coil-overs designed for a matrix?

Not trying to be rude or argumentative...I just want to me sure I understand why this wouldn't work?
_________________________________________________________

On a side note....If I were to pursue the Celica option I have read that the Tein SS are the only ones that work as opposed to other manufacturers (again...something that doesn't logically make sense...but I am going to take the bait and ask anyways).

Given the statement above....does anyone have an experience the contrary? I would think that ANY coilover designed for a 7th gen Celica should work....not just the Teins.

Thanks again guys. Just wan't to make an educated purchase.
Salsa Guy
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 pm
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Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by Salsa Guy »

Interest to say the least. Keith is correct about the coilovers. There are some pics on Matrixowners and here when someone did the work and I beieve Keith was involved.

Keep up posted on the the build.

Goodluck

PS what it the weight different between the LS and the 1zz?
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

Salsa Guy wrote:Interest to say the least. Keith is correct about the coilovers. There are some pics on Matrixowners and here when someone did the work and I beieve Keith was involved.

Keep up posted on the the build.

Goodluck

PS what it the weight different between the LS and the 1zz?
From what I have found the 1zz long block dry is 225lbs....(I believe that weight is with no accessories. I don't know if that weight even includes intake and exhaust manifolds)

Aluminum blocked LSX motor with all the accessories and manifolds is 480lbs

I have no idea what the AWD transmission weighed vs the transmission I am using, (and all the weight was in-front of the firewall, where as the transmission I am using will be primarily behind the spindle line with the exception of the converter).

Very interested to see some pictures of the coil-overs installed. Any links would be appreciated. I have already looked at several threads for the ksport and teins...and I honestly am starting to think I am just going to measure thy chassis at the ride-height I want and order a set of custom affcos or something. I don't think I could get the support I need in the spring department from any of the off-the-shelf suppliers.
Salsa Guy
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 pm
Location: Greater Tulsa Area

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by Salsa Guy »

Here's on I found on newcelica.org. The PICs are gone. Will check on MO. I've seen what they did and it was nothing more enlarging the hole. Like I said Keith knows alot about all this and he's done all kinds off stuff to his 1st Gen AWD Vibe.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141849" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
Salsa Guy
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 pm
Location: Greater Tulsa Area

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by Salsa Guy »

Here's on on MO linking back to NC.

http://matrixowners.com/index.php?/topi ... try1242465" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

Thanks for the links, I will make sure to read through them.

Just wanted to make sure it's clear im not trying to discredit anyone...im sure Keith, yourself and others have a lot of experience. I am however just trying to make sense of the interchange information in front of me.

Thanks again.
Salsa Guy
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:46 pm
Location: Greater Tulsa Area

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by Salsa Guy »

I'm pretty clueless about the coilovers. I went with the lowering springs that are now longer made for these cars (03-06 4WD/AWD Matrix/Vibe).
FYI what did you with the old transmission? Interesting in selling it? I'm thinking of learnig more about the transfer case and seeing if it can be made into a "REAL" AWD system.
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
bfurches
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by bfurches »

Salsa Guy wrote:I'm pretty clueless about the coilovers. I went with the lowering springs that are now longer made for these cars (03-06 4WD/AWD Matrix/Vibe).
FYI what did you with the old transmission? Interesting in selling it? I'm thinking of learnig more about the transfer case and seeing if it can be made into a "REAL" AWD system.
My buddy at the yard put it into his inventory of parts. It was part of the deal for me getting the chassis so cheap. But if you would like, I am sure I can pull some diagrams and info from Alldata. If you are looking for anything in particular, shoot me a pm.
keithvibe
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Re: AWD Coilovers

Post by keithvibe »

At one point I did weigh the rear of the car and the front of the car to get proper spring rates for the car because nothing is made correctly for the AWD. You might find this info in one of my threads on MO about my k-sport screwup.
As you have pointed out you will need custom spring rates. Honestly going beyond stock info I couldn't help you in this department.

Even with adjustable damping it won't be enough to cover the weight difference between the awd and 2wd.
You are correct the strut itself is almost identical. The real difference between the two is the spring rate. At the time I delt with this the k-sport didn't offer a matrix coilover. We used the one for the corolla for the 2wd guys. I decided to try the celica coilover because, 1. I didn't have 1200bucks for tein coilovers, 2. I didn't have 1200 bucks for teins :lol: (they are now in the 800bucks range) :roll:
So I got the celica coilovers which if I recall correctly had 9k front and 7k rear.
If you look at the corolla spring rates the rear was 6k, which is fine for the 2wd but isn't strong enough for the awd.
I had no issue with the front coilovers. The rear 7k that came on the celica coilover. That spring rate wasn't strong enough. I needed 9k for the rear but at the time k-sport wasn't accomidating to get custom spring rates. I kept bottoming out on every bump.
The rear celica coilovers bolted right up no issue at all.
As I said the front bolt holes needed to be larger for them to bolt up. Again this was before k-sport offered a coilover for the matrix.
They now make a set that bolts up with no modification.
2010 Vibe & member of the yeargarage Email me if you need to talk to me, click my siggy and send the email threw the contact page.
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